Heavy for caliber 460 projectile take two

[TCTex]

I was over on Accurate Molds and found this. What do ya'll think? :popcorn:

Duane

Ps, See how much I have been corrupted by this sight!!!!! [smilie=l:

45-500 S (http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-500S-D.png)

http://www.accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/45-500S-D.png

[Sturmcrow]

Seems like it would work real good for taking out 6 or 7 zombies standing in a row!

[white eagle]

wow!! thats a long rascal

[44MAG#1]

I would opt for larger and fewer lube grooves..
Shape is good but the tumble lube isn't what I would go for in seating it long if i could.

[TCTex]

If I didn't like the PB I would look at this one...

a 465 gr plain base

http://www.accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/45-465M-D.png


The next that is usable for me would be 400gr "a," "b," or "d." :bigsmyl2:

A
http://www.accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/45-400A-D.png

B
http://www.accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/45-400B-D.png

D
http://www.accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/45-400D-D.png

[paul h]

I've come to the conclusion over the years that for a given caliber, there is a point at which, more weight does not equate to more terminal performance. There is a point at which, if you want more, you need to up the dia of the bullet and the weight. In a 45 caliber handgun, I believe you'll find that going past 400 gr's really only buys you bragging rights, and empties your furnace faster.

I like the nose profile of D but would opt for a 0.08" front driving band over the dual crimp grooves.

[white eagle]

I do believe that these are intended for a rifle
but if not I agree 110%

[Whitworth]

I've come to the conclusion over the years that for a given caliber, there is a point at which, more weight does not equate to more terminal performance. There is a point at which, if you want more, you need to up the dia of the bullet and the weight. In a 45 caliber handgun, I believe you'll find that going past 400 gr's really only buys you bragging rights, and empties your furnace faster.

I like the nose profile of D but would opt for a 0.08" front driving band over the dual crimp grooves.

I agree completely.

[TCTex]

Not a problem and I am listen 100%! I have just had a lot of encouragement to shoot a 500gr projectile out of my 17.5in Encore in 460 S&W.

I agree there is a balance between caliber and weight, however, part of the reason I was posting this was because of the comments of the lack of heavy weight 45cal hunting bullets. I thought these would do nicely.

I would like to buy one, it is just going to have to wait awhile… LOL It will get there with time.

[bigboredad]

you might check the molds from the 340-360 range and if you don't like what you see Tom can make what you want. I'd opt for a long nose 360gr. but I don't know much about bullet designing

[bearcove]

I've come to the conclusion over the years that for a given caliber, there is a point at which, more weight does not equate to more terminal performance. There is a point at which, if you want more, you need to up the dia of the bullet and the weight. In a 45 caliber handgun, I believe you'll find that going past 400 gr's really only buys you bragging rights, and empties your furnace faster.

I like the nose profile of D but would opt for a 0.08" front driving band over the dual crimp grooves.

Less is probably OK too. A 325 gr out of a 454 7 2/1" FA went lengthwise through a moose about 5' of penetration.

[44MAG#1]

Some don't get it. the man just wants to experiment with a "heavy" bullet.
He never said he thought it takes a 500 grain bullet to kill anything.
He never said molding the things would be as economical as a lighter bullet
He just wants to have fun with something unusual.
He didn't ask for a lesson in ballistic balance in a cartridge or a lesson on what would be the ideal bullet weight.
He ask what people thought of THAT bullet for him to experiment with.
If we all just stuck with what we needed most of us would have many fewer guns and probably more money.

[TCTex]

If we all just stuck with what we needed most of us would have many fewer guns and probably more money.

44Mag#1-God Bless you!


My 460 Shoots a 250gr FTX at 2400 very well. I bought a 300gr Lee mold a few month ago and just thought about using it... LOL


As for the current debate at hand, what WOULD be an optimum bullet weight for the 460 S&W in a 17in Encore?

[44MAG#1]

At the velocities attainable in that cartridge a 340 gr LBT LFN GC would be what I would want.
I have one that works real well in a blackhawk 45 colt with 22 gr H110.
Don't let the nay sayers deter you from getting that 500 gr mold.
If you do it will be in the back of your mind thinking that you should have tried it.
I still would like a wider heavier lube grooves though.
After going to the Accurate Mold site I see why you picked that mold.
It is designed for the 460.
You can still try to seat it out as far as you can though.

[paul h]

Some don't get it. the man just wants to experiment with a "heavy" bullet.
He never said he thought it takes a 500 grain bullet to kill anything.
He never said molding the things would be as economical as a lighter bullet
He just wants to have fun with something unusual.
He didn't ask for a lesson in ballistic balance in a cartridge or a lesson on what would be the ideal bullet weight.
He ask what people thought of THAT bullet for him to experiment with.
If we all just stuck with what we needed most of us would have many fewer guns and probably more money.

I get what he was asking, and expressed my thoughts based on having personally used an overly heavy for caliber bullet in a big bore handgun. Was I somehow rude in expressing my thoughts? He did ask about 400gr designs before I replied as well. As this is a handgun forum I had assumed we were discussing the 460 in a revolver, turns out the firearm in question is a single shot rifle, which changes things a bit.

Heck, if you want to launch 500's and you have a fast enough barrel twist, go for it. I'd do a chamber cast to see what the dimensions of your throat are, and go from there. Tom will make a mold to your design, so design a bullet to fit your gun. I would suggest a meplat in the 75-80% range and make the bullet nose as long as practical to fit your guns chamber, and slap a gas check on the back. I'd go with more conventional lube grooves over tumble lube and depending on how much of the bullet is in the case I'd play around with driving band width in the 0.06-0.07 range to see how many lube grooves you can get on the bullet.

[44MAG#1]

Rude no. but most like myself at times answer questions that were not even asked. I try to watch that nowadays but at times still slip up.
We all take someone that has few post as someone that is inexperienced. That is not always true. We all started somewhere on these forums that doesn't mean we are on the bottom rung in knowlege.
I shoot a 515 grain bullet at times in a 12 inch Encore barrel in 454 Casull.
That is the reason I am more in tune with this guy than most.

[bearcove]

The point is he asked for an opinion. I gave mine. I have shot 425gr and found it was pointless. 300-350gr is what seems to work best on the heavy side.

Once again my opinion. If he wants he can go to 600gr, I don't care.

[44man]

Why argue? We all know a gun has limit due to twist and velocity.
yeah, it is true! [smilie=s: You just can not go too heavy. Neither can you go too light.
The worst thing is to spend money for out of the norm to find it fails.
My bandwagon has always been to never waste your money.
If you have a lot of money, failure is an option. :bigsmyl2:

[44MAG#1]

Before this turns into a velocity/twist/bullet weight arguement /fiasco according to T/C the twist rate for their 460 S&W barrels is 1-16 twist.
Many 45/70's utilize 1-18 to 1-20 twist barrels such as the sharps replicas and even the Marlin 45/70 is a 1-20. Bullets heavier than 500 grains will stablize very well in them at lower velocities than TCTEX will get out of his 460 S&W barrel.
If it won't work in his barrel than the 45/70 users must all be crazy and all these good LLLLOOOONNNGGGG range matches they shoot with excellent results all must be fabricated in a very devious way just to confuse and confound all of us.
Outside of him finding out he doesn't like the bullet what harm has he done?
He knows how deep his pockets are without us telling him.
He will have fun finding out and that is what it is about in these trying times.
If he can't afford some money to donate to the rat hole then he needs to quit experimenting, pick a load from a book and be satisfied and shoot just enough to keep his hand in so to speak.
TCTEX have at it I support you one hundred percent.

[TCTex]

Ya’ll are still awesome. It is amazing what happens when you keep an open mind. With my first initial post I was worried over how heavy a bullet my barrel would stabilize. I worded my question less than desirable and consequently the responses reflected my direct question. The outcome was simple realized the sky was the limit. :2_high5:

All my real intentions include finding a good cast hunting bullet mold for my 460 S&W. Accurate molds have a plethora to choose from for 365 to 500. What weight bullet would be optimal? This rig is for practical hunting on med to large game. This rig is defiantly one that would be considered if I ever had the chance to go on an elk hunt. :Fire:

It is funny really, I am a prolific poster over on handgunhunt. However I have said more than once not to judge my merit by how many posts I have made but the content in the posts themselves. In short, the last time I tried walking on water… … … I got wet!! LOL :dung_hits_fan:

Just remember I am here to learn and I have been soaking up both sides of this conversation. All I want to know is where the happy medium is… LOL :drinks:

Take Care, God Bless, and thank everyone for their responses and passionate answers, it means we care!!! :Luvcastboolits:

[TXGunNut]

I like the first one but wouldn't need a GC, doubt my revolver would push it very fast. Looks like fun.

[bigboredad]

Tctext

I feel your pain i am not the best at getting what is in my head tomy fingers and on the web. I often think I'm asking a good question but judging from my answers something got lost along the way. Tom at accurate is great he spent 2 days helping me out on my last purchase and never once made me feel stupid or like I was bothering him. It's great to have that kind of cs when a person most often me doesn't know what he is doing. moral to the story. You can always ask Tom for his advice

[TCTex]

Thanks Gents. I will give him an email and see what he says. I might also seat a 300gr Lee bullet in there and see what the OAL is. He might tell me what the optimum bullet weight would be for my chamber...

[44man]

Before this turns into a velocity/twist/bullet weight arguement /fiasco according to T/C the twist rate for their 460 S&W barrels is 1-16 twist.
Many 45/70's utilize 1-18 to 1-20 twist barrels such as the sharps replicas and even the Marlin 45/70 is a 1-20. Bullets heavier than 500 grains will stablize very well in them at lower velocities than TCTEX will get out of his 460 S&W barrel.
If it won't work in his barrel than the 45/70 users must all be crazy and all these good LLLLOOOONNNGGGG range matches they shoot with excellent results all must be fabricated in a very devious way just to confuse and confound all of us.
Outside of him finding out he doesn't like the bullet what harm has he done?
He knows how deep his pockets are without us telling him.
He will have fun finding out and that is what it is about in these trying times.
If he can't afford some money to donate to the rat hole then he needs to quit experimenting, pick a load from a book and be satisfied and shoot just enough to keep his hand in so to speak.
TCTEX have at it I support you one hundred percent.
Not entirely true. I shot BPCR many, many years with 1 in 18" in 45-70 and it is not all it is supposed to be. It should be faster. 1 in 20" is only good for lighter boolits.
Lets compare a 45-70 BFR with the .460. The BFR has a 1 in 14" twist and loves 300 to 350 gr boolits, will shoot under 1" at 100 and will hit steel every shot at 500 meters. I can NOT do that with a rifle. I seem to peak at 420 gr in the BFR.
The .460 has a 1 in 16" because a lighter boolit can be shot very fast. It was designed for a 200 gr bullet at rifle velocities but works from 300 gr and under.
To get a 500 gr boolit to velocity and spin in the .460 is not in the cards and I will not even go there in the 45-70 but my chances are much better. My twist is faster so I do not need the velocity. Pressure in the 45-70 will be much lower then the .460 with any boolit.
This is a mechanical problem, not magic that a wand can be waved over. You confuse case capacity, pressure, barrel length, velocity, BP compared to smokeless and on and on.
I would prefer 1 in 16" or faster for heavy boolits in a BPCR. I have shot 1" groups at 200 meters with 1 in 18" but can not hit 500 meter rams with heavy boolits. Drop to 500 gr and it is better. I have 540 to 560 gr boolits but to hit a 500 meter ram is pure luck. Those boolits are better in a .45-90 or larger.
The best question I can ask you is would you shoot a 400 gr boolit from a .44 special? How about 300 from a .357?
There is a limit, I am not pulling this from a rabbit hat.

[44MAG#1]

I knew it, I knew it.
Couldn't stand it.
Oh well. It is what it is.
Only a chosen few.

[TCTex]

I don’t know Jim, I have gotten quite a few PM’s with users shooting 400 to 500gr projectiles from factory 454’s and 460 TC barrels. I am just saying… I mean one person, well, ok… it must be a good barrel. But 6 or 7… ya… that is a pattern. I am wondering if there might be a difference in the single shot vs revolver platform here, but that is just my guess…

Ps, the Lyman manual lists 535 grain bullets with their 45-70 with 1:18 twists... I know we are talking .006 difference in barrel diameter, but I just thought I would throw it out there.

[44man]

I don’t know Jim, I have gotten quite a few PM’s with users shooting 400 to 500gr projectiles from factory 454’s and 460 TC barrels. I am just saying… I mean one person, well, ok… it must be a good barrel. But 6 or 7… ya… that is a pattern. I am wondering if there might be a difference in the single shot vs revolver platform here, but that is just my guess…

Ps, the Lyman manual lists 535 grain bullets with their 45-70 with 1:18 twists... I know we are talking .006 difference in barrel diameter, but I just thought I would throw it out there.
It is true and I will not dispute it. You can shoot a 1000 gr boolit from the 45-70.
But you do not ask how the revolver boolits shoot. Do you know many of them shoot 7 yards?
Can you shoot a 700 gr from a .45 Colt? I suppose if there is room for Bullseye to get the thing to exit the barrel. You really need to see how the boolits shoot and the accuracy. Terminal results on game too.
I have had so many failures trying stuff out of bounds that were suggested it is unreal. I could very well say I shoot a 600 gr from a .44, would you believe it?
44mag#1 is angry with me too. But it is just physics, common sense and what you believe from what you read.
Revolver shooters are nuts.
Say you have a 30-06 that shoots great with 150 gr bullets. Your crazy mind wants a 600 gr bullet. Kind of stupid but a revolver shooter thinks it works. Get boolits so large there is room for 2 gr of powder.
OK, a 500 gr in a .460. What do you have? A scud that goes bang and can't hit a thing.

[TCTex]

…44mag#1 is angry with me too...
Easy!!! Don’t get so defensive!! I am not angry with you! This is a forum, just remember there is often more than one answer…

…It is true and I will not dispute it. You can shoot a 1000 gr boolit from the 45-70...
I like that, that is funny! LOL I just can’t find a mold that big…


…I could very well say I shoot a 600 gr from a .44, would you believe it?...

Do I have any reason not to?? Think about that answer again, and then again before you answer that one.
I have been contacted by people shooting 500gr bullets out of a 12in Encore in 454. They gave me loading data and results at 100 yards.


Say you have a 30-06 that shoots great with 150 gr bullets. Your crazy mind wants a 600 gr bullet. Kind of stupid but a revolver shooter thinks it works…

No, my 30 cal question was asking about the NOE 218gr / 208gr 308 mold. I have a thread about a heavy 30 cal bullet if you wish to go read it. And yes my Wife’s Rem 700 CDL SF and my CZ 550 American both like a Hornady 150 SST over Varget at 3000 fps.


…But you do not ask how the revolver boolits shoot. Do you know many of them shoot 7 yards?...

Again, you are assuming too much. First off, look at my user name. Second, the tread has multiple mentions of using this bullet in a 17.5in TC. Third, no, and again, I am talking about 50 and 100 yard groups.

If you look and actually read my post I have also commented more than once that:
A. This is bullet will be used for hunting.
B. There is a balance between caliber and weight and have asked what is a “happy medium” was. An optimal bullet weight if you will… (Ps, so far that answer has been somewhere around 365 ish… so do you think I am reading and listing?)
C. I am keeping an open mind
D. Just because one is a prolific poster doesn’t mean you can walk on water. Try taking the example of the first class users, Paul H-White Eagle-Whitworth-BigBoreDad-&-Bearcove, and say your piece and then bow out and not bully their will on a user. This is a God bless America free public forum. I can ask all the questions I want and still do what ever in the world I want at the end of the day. There can be more than one right answer. Please stop this nonsense or I will request this thread be locked. (I am not upset, life is just to short for that. I am disappointed you have yet to quote me and answer one of my questions instead of trying to disprove someone else. JMHO…)


So, anyone else have any more suggestions or recommendations???

:goodpost:

[bearcove]

In the Carbine you have a different beast. I would think it would be interesting to shoot a loverin style That could be seated out so you don't encroach on the powder space. With the forward 2 or 3 bands cut so they are bore riders. Then you would have an "almost 45-70" I'd do a chamber cast and get with Tom at Accurate and design one to fit.

How much powder space is left might be more important than hitting 500gr. I shoot 425gr in 45-70 for a heavy boolit. Out of my Marlin it will do for anything on earth.

[jwp475]

The 460 case is 1.8" long and if TC Tex's barrel is of sufficient length and it should be at 17" then the 500 grain bullet may just well fine. If his barrel has a long throat then he can seat the bullet out and gain powder capacity

I am interested in his results

[45nut]

Anyone on this thread interested in purchasing/trading for a custom Encore 460 barrel?

[bearcove]

45nut PM coming.

[44MAG#1]

45nut:

If you aren't trying to make a funny how much? I really don't have a use for it but it might be fun.
How long is it. I have a 12 inch 454 Casull barrel.

[45nut]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/pistols/100_0817.jpg

Its a half octagon/half round 16" with a shark gill brake, internal threaded cap made by OTT.
fired less than a half dozen times, 50 pieces or so of virgin 460 brass included.

I know what I have into it is well over $400.00 , prefer trades of goods I can use.

[44MAG#1]

Man I like that.

[MJR007]

If it didn't have the brake...

[45nut]

you don't have a hacksaw?

[MJR007]

Those days are long gone.

[bigboredad]

that is a cool looking barrel

[44man]

I still say there is a limit to boolit weight and length.
We tried many and penetration was worse plus holes in paper showed oblong holes. There is no stability. Penetration tests had the heavy boolits turn and exit at odd angles.
It has nothing to do with barrel length, it is twist and velocity. Go too heavy and you can not reach the proper velocity and spin.
Go back to the 220 Swift and the 22-250. The swift had a faster twist and would shoot a 60 gr bullet to extreme range. The 22-250 had a slower twist and worked with a 50 gr bullet but the lighter bullet was not as good at 600 yards.
Now look at the AR's with very fast twist rates that shoot very heavy bullets.
Why anyone thinks they can beat physics with a revolver baffles me. Why not just use a smooth bore? :mrgreen:

[TCTex]

The current question is:


As for the current debate at hand, what WOULD be an optimum bullet weight for the 460 S&W in a 17in Encore?

[TCTex]

Jim, I am not going to debate or rebuttal you this time.

PLEASE STOP POSTING ON MY THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[44MAG#1]

I would lean toward a 340 grain bullet.
Its really a funny thing. Cape buffalo and water buffalo have been killed with good shot placement with 44 mag revolvers.
we forget about JD Jones, Larry Kelly, Hal Siggett killed a couple or so Bison with a 44 Mag revolver with a 45/8's barrel plus other game bigger than whitetail deer. and others that used the 44 Mag and took large, larger and largest big game with a revolver.
Ross Seyfried went to Africa in thwe 80's with a 4 Inch M29 with a 250 Keith and shot through both shoulders of Greater Kudu with that bullet.
Bill Wilson killed Cape Buffalo and Maned African Lion wutht he same 300 gr bullet load.
I know this isn't done everyday but what are we going to kill that a 340 gr bullet at 2-3 hundred fps more won't kill?
Most of us won't see africa or go on a big game hunt in alaska.
But it is fun to experiment with a 500 gr bullet though. Why stick to the staus quo.
I have fun shooting that is what it is about and experimenting is part of it.

[Whitworth]

Ross Seyfried went to Africa in thwe 80's with a 4 Inch M29 with a 250 Keith and shot through both shoulders of Greater Kudu with that bullet.


I failure on a kudu and the loss of the animal with the .44 mag pushed Ross into the .45 Colt and he said the following about using the .44 mag in Africa: "Many could be taken with the .44 Magnum, but I always felt like I was asking a boy to do a man’s job.”

He always felt a bit undergunned in Africa with his .44 mag.

But, that is neither here, nor there.:bigsmyl2:

I think you would be well served by trying a number of different bullets weights, conventional "wisdom" be damned.

[TCTex]

As I have stated before, my barrel is shooting the 250gr FTX, which was designed for rifle speeds, and will take anything in the lower 48. That bullet was designed for the 450 bushmasters and is a tuff bullet. I have the 300gr Lee LBT and I am still currently working with it. I am going to order a 454 sizer and see if it helps any. It have had better accuracy shooting a 359 in my 357’s and a 379 in my 375’s in my TC for some reason. The exception to that rule would be my 414 SM which has to be sized to 410 to chamber and will not accept the 411 dummy rounds. But that is off topic and neither here or there…

My good friend Toby had a 500+gr bullet mold for the 45-70 that I am going to try. Am I going to hunt with it… probably not. Why am I going to try it… because I can.

I have been asking questions about an optimal bullet weight just because I value the experience on the sight and realize that it can save me time and money with molds that are expensive. Thanks for the help so far and I am listing… I also realize that I have a 460 is capable of shooting a 300gr projectile to the equivalent of a 45-70 in a handgun platform. So yes, it is a monster. I have 18 TC barrels, I just want to know what this 460 monster is capable of and what is the best way to “push” it.

[44man]

Jim, I am not going to debate or rebuttal you this time.

PLEASE STOP POSTING ON MY THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK---[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

[Mooseman]

Jim, I am not going to debate or rebuttal you this time.

PLEASE STOP POSTING ON MY THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I see a response like this on the forum , it doesn't set well with me. You ask a question and Open a discussion , so you get responses that you may not want to hear even if they make a lot of sense or come from someone elses experiences.
The whole forum Idea is to exchange information and thoughts and to share experiences while promoting our Hobby. Just because something is posted doesnt mean you have to listen or act on what they say , or argue about it.
You may not like what someone says because it doesnt meet with your line of thinking , but it might be something you should consider in reality.I read all the posts and people here try to help with bits of Info and their experiences too.
We are all very passionate about our casting, loading and shooting on here and I see some experiments posted here that make me cringe sometimes with guys trying to push the envelope and know what I have experienced in 40 years of competition and hunting Loads I have tried that were a complete failure. We didnt have forums to discuss things like this back in the stone age...And I have seen many guns that became junk from someones experiment that failed.
Thank God my Contender was stronger than my wrists were...

[TCTex]

...You ask a question and Open a discussion , so you get responses that you may not want to hear even if they make a lot of sense or come from someone else’s experiences.

…You may not like what someone says because it doesn’t meet with your line of thinking , but it might be something you should consider in reality. I read all the posts and people here try to help with bits of Info and their experiences too...
I agree 100% on both comments! Great comment. (I put them adjacent to each other because I feel like they go hand in hand.)
If you go look on the original Heavy for Caliber 460 Projectile (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=153600) I had that problem. I had to humble myself to realize the question I really asked and take the response’s from the users at heart. Firsthand experience of users on this wonderful sight that said they were shooting 500 + gr projectiles out of an encore platform. And if you look here in post 23 I took the advice of the users to heart to contact Accurate molds to have a custom mold made to my chamber, regardless of weight…

Not a problem and I am listen 100%! I have just had a lot of encouragement to shoot a 500gr projectile out of my 17.5in Encore in 460 S&W.



I am disappointed you have yet to quote me and answer one of my questions instead of trying to disprove someone else. JMHO
It bothers me that I keep asking questions and “I” don’t feel like Jim has yet to answer my question of an optimal bullet weight. Yet instead he has decided to put other users down and disprove them. I hope my posts here show that I am keeping an open mind. Start at the beginning and look at where my mind has started. It has gone from 500gr to 365gr projectile. I don’t think Jim sees that, or again, my feelings say he has chosen not to comment on it. However, it could be in his wording. However, I feel like I am not the only person here with those feelings. I have gotten quite a few phone calls, texts, and PM’s that indicate we have a problem in this thread.

I knew it, I knew it.
Couldn't stand it.
Oh well. It is what it is.
Only a chosen few.


…The whole forum Idea is to exchange information and thoughts and to share experiences while promoting our Hobby. Just because something is posted doesn’t mean you have to listen or act on what they say , or argue about it...

This is a God bless America free public forum. I can ask all the questions I want and still do what ever in the world I want at the end of the day. There can be more than one right answer.
Again I agree 100% but this really bothered me…

I could very well say I shoot a 600 gr from a .44, would you believe it?
IMHO, he is blatantly putting down users on this post that have firsthand experience of shooting 500gr projectiles in a 454. That isn’t right and isn’t kosher IMHO…
My answer was simple…

Do I have any reason not to?? Think about that answer again, and then again before you answer that one.
I have been contacted by people shooting 500gr bullets out of a 12in Encore in 454. They gave me loading data and results at 100 yards.
My comment there was one of disbelief. Why would multiple users on this sight steer me wrong? Even more importantly, would anyone on this sight purposely steer me wrong?? When I read that statement by Jim that is what I read. Not that it isn’t possible to shoot a heavy bullet, but that users are lying to me!


We are all very passionate about our casting, loading and shooting on here and I see some experiments posted here that make me cringe sometimes with guys trying to push the envelope and know what I have experienced in 40 years of competition and hunting Loads I have tried that were a complete failure. We didnt have forums to discuss things like this back in the stone age...And I have seen many guns that became junk from someones experiment that failed.
Thank God my Contender was stronger than my wrists were...

Ya’ll are still awesome. It is amazing what happens when you keep an open mind.

Just remember I am here to learn and I have been soaking up both sides of this conversation. All I want to know is where the happy medium is… LOL :drinks:

Take Care, God Bless, and thank everyone for their responses and passionate answers, it means we care!!! :Luvcastboolits:

I have agreed with everything you have said, I can’t argue with anything at all!

I can’t argue with this:

When I see a response like this on the forum , it doesn't set well with me.
It just means we have a problem. It may be me, but I will work on my part…

With the greatest respect and admiration,

Duane

I am not trying to be a trouble maker. If I was I would be asking every person I know to send you a pm and tell them their true feelings about this subject. However that wouldn’t be right, would just waste your time and do nothing but give you a headache.

[44MAG#1]

"I failure on a kudu and the loss of the animal with the .44 mag pushed Ross into the .45 Colt and he said the following about using the .44 mag in Africa: "Many could be taken with the .44 Magnum, but I always felt like I was asking a boy to do a man’s job.” "


I just stated what he told me over the phone. If he would have had a 320 gr bullet from maybe a 71/2 incher the failure may not have happened.
What was his alloy?
If one will talk to Randy Garrett on his ammo or Tim sundles on his 44 Mag stuff it will become apparent as to what i was trying to say.
Failures will continue to happen . That is a fact of life.
And so life goes on.

[paul h]

I don't know what the balisitcs of the 460 are in a 17" carbine, but let's assume somewhere along the lines of the 45-70 marlin. To my way of thinking, when using a cast bullet to hunt with from a rifle the sweet spot in velocity is in the 1800-2000 fps range. I have many friends that hunt with 45-70 guide guns and the consensus on cast bullets for hunting are 400-430 gr bullets.

When you get to the point that you are getting consistant exits on game from all angles you'll be shooting, you don't gain anything by going to a heavier bullet. Your impact revolicity is reduced, which decreases the dia of the wound, your trajectory is more arched which requires range compensation at closer distances, and your longer bullet is less stable in both air and flesh. As I stated before, there is a point at which if you wan't more power, you have to increase bullet dia, not just weight.

To me the only reason some people have gone to 500 gr 45 caliber bullets is to somehow believe their 45-70's are equivalent to a 458 win mag or 458 lott, just because they shoot the same weight bullet, albeit at much lower velocities. It simply ain't so.

You want well balanced, you've been given advice. You want to experiment, nothing wrong with that. Remember alot of this is semantics as in the majority of hunting situations you can kill game with much, much, much less powerful weapons. If a 44 mag with a 250 gr is enough, then arguing which is better between a 400 or 500 gr 460 is really mute. Either will work. If you want to hunt the world with 500's out of your 460, go for it.

[TCTex]

Paul, damn good comment and I am listening. You are correct, the only reason I will try a heavy bullet is because I already have a mold I can borrow and I don’t have to spend the money to buy one. I have even had a user offer to send me heavy cast bullets because they didn’t want me to wast money on a mold that would eventually be of no use to me… A great sight filled with people who care!!

I know I could hit the 1800-2000 fps sweet spot you are suggesting. The new Lyman manual lists a 325gr cast bullet in a 15in barrel with vel between 1800-1900. Honestly, the more I read I think I should just stick with my 300gr Lee LBT mold for hunting.



The bottom TC in the picture is my 460 S&W. It was a 20in custom shop that was cut down to 15.5in before the break was added. OAL is 17.5
http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/data/500/120418_004.jpg

[Whitworth]

"I failure on a kudu and the loss of the animal with the .44 mag pushed Ross into the .45 Colt and he said the following about using the .44 mag in Africa: "Many could be taken with the .44 Magnum, but I always felt like I was asking a boy to do a man’s job.” "


I just stated what he told me over the phone. If he would have had a 320 gr bullet from maybe a 71/2 incher the failure may not have happened.
What was his alloy?
If one will talk to Randy Garrett on his ammo or Tim sundles on his 44 Mag stuff it will become apparent as to what i was trying to say.
Failures will continue to happen . That is a fact of life.
And so life goes on.

Perhaps you are correct. I know, I talk to Ross on a regular basis, but he never felt completely happy with the .44 and much prefered the .45 -- still does for that matter. I too believe the .429 Magnum comes into its own with a 300 to 320 grain bullet, any heavier and you might as well step up in diameter and get that benefit as well.

[bearcove]

I don't know what the balisitcs of the 460 are in a 17" carbine, but let's assume somewhere along the lines of the 45-70 marlin. To my way of thinking, when using a cast bullet to hunt with from a rifle the sweet spot in velocity is in the 1800-2000 fps range. I have many friends that hunt with 45-70 guide guns and the consensus on cast bullets for hunting are 400-430 gr bullets.

When you get to the point that you are getting consistant exits on game from all angles you'll be shooting, you don't gain anything by going to a heavier bullet. Your impact revolicity is reduced, which decreases the dia of the wound, your trajectory is more arched which requires range compensation at closer distances, and your longer bullet is less stable in both air and flesh. As I stated before, there is a point at which if you wan't more power, you have to increase bullet dia, not just weight.

If you can load to that 1800+ range you can hunt anything. I think extra weight that lowers velocity below that would be counter productive. If you borrow a mold and try some different weights before you design a mold...

I have shot Cast performance and beartooth bullets to try a weight. I wasn't sure about. Decided I didn't need a 500 gr for my 45-70. Lost to much vel. I also like about 425gr in it.

[jwp475]

If you can load to that 1800+ range you can hunt anything. I think extra weight that lowers velocity below that would be counter productive. If you borrow a mold and try some different weights before you design a mold...

I have shot Cast performance and beartooth bullets to try a weight. I wasn't sure about. Decided I didn't need a 500 gr for my 45-70. Lost to much vel. I also like about 425gr in it.



I am not sure what you mean by losing something with lower velocity. I know that a 600 grain bullet from a 45-70 is nearly impossible to stop. They shoot through everything and we were never able to catch one. Any velocity much over 1400 FPS with cast bullets has decreased penetration in my experience

[bearcove]

So is a 425gr at 1900 with a large meplat making a big whole. If you are getting full pen how much more do you need?

If you want to shoot something that heavy have fun with it. It would turn my marlin into a very short range rifle.

Another point is the very heavy boolits are not fun when shot in a 7lb levergun. I just do this for the fun. Shot some 560 gr wasn't fun.

[jwp475]

I don't get the commit that heavy bullets turn a 45-70 into a short range rifle. I know that Bill Bagwell shot 500 grainers with black powder for about 1300'ish fps and he took an animal at around 570 yards with one shot. Long range shooting is about accuracy and correcting for bullet drop, not that hard once one learns how

[bearcove]

If you are shooting a sharps or old style single shot with sights set up to correct elevation, like a tang sight, you are correct. A receiver mounted ghost ring on a Marlin is not going to work that way. I shoot 350 gr most and they shoot very flat compared to a 600gr. Makes for a 150 yd rifle that is handy and light to carry.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi TC,

I'm sorry I missed thread #1 and now thread #2! I have thousands of rounds behind me in my BFR 460 (10 inch barrel, 1 in 16 twist) and here is what I learned so far:

1. Light bullets are no good. Best for the gain twist barrels.

2. Optimum weight is 425 grains. Optimum design is as much bearing surface as you can get on the bullet.

3. 525 grain bullets work great. That's the biggest bullet I've tried so far.

4. 340-370 is an anti sweet spot in my gun for some reason. They tumble. 200-300 doesnt, 400-525 doesnt. I can't explain it. Can't be bothered to figure it out. 425's shoot well.

5a. 300 LEE sucks from my BFR. Your Mileage May Vary. Only way I can get it to shoot is to shoot it REALLY slow. May as well own a 45 colt to shoot this bullet!

5b. 500 grain GC lee shoots WAY better. In fact, it's the #2 bullet for my gun.

6. Optimal velocities are in the 1000-1350 fps range. 500 grains at 1200-1250 fps and the brass slides right out of my cylinder. I'm sure I could push to well over 1400 fps, but why? The recoil is pleasant when shooting 500/1200. I still need to chrono my best loads @ 425 grains when I get the red-dot situation fixed. predicted 1300-1400 fps.

7. Most unpleasant loads are 200 grains @ 2400+, and 500 grains at 1350+. They are both loud and recoil too much. I believe both are affecting my group size directly. 500/1200 feels like a solid 454 Casull kind of recoil.

8. Best powder for me so far has been 4198, both H and IMR. I like IMR better which is weird because in general I prefer H-everything. Second place is definitely SR4759. In any case you are looking at about 25 grains of powder. In MY GUN, 25 grains of IMR 4198 with a 500 grain bullet is around 11XX fps. The brass falls out of my cylinder under gravity. I haven't pushed pressure limits because I see no need to. That load will allow you to seat the bullet .8" into the case before you reach powder compression, roughly. This should still chamber your gun but is close. Won't fit an X-frame.

9. There's data online for a 500 grain bullet using lilgun. I don't use that powder but it's easy to correlate lilgun with H110 (interpolate, not using the same charge weights!) and "entry level" loads are around 1350-1400 fps. I gave up on those real quick. They group fine, and they are not fun to shoot. There are no wild buicks roaming the lands where I hunt.

10. My load development process has been matching "about" 75% the loads for 45/70, given the cartridge is a very similar design and holds about 75% of the water weight. This with a little caution and care taken to come up with starting loads and lengths has OPENED UP the possibilities for my experimentation, and has been almost as helpful to me as asking the good people on this forum for help.

I'm sure there is more, but that's it off the top of my head. Check out the ranch dog mold in 458 if you haven't already. It's awesome.

[Whiterabbit]

11. I have so much freebore in my revolver, I almost guarantee my velocities will be higher than yours, potentially. my 3"cyl, 1-16, 10" bfr is faster than a 2.3" cyl, gain twist (1-20), 12" smith and wesson X-frame.

Dunno if your barrel length is sufficient to make up for my freebore (or whatever is actually causing the sharp increase in actual velocity.)

[Whiterabbit]

IMO:

get the LEE 500 grain 2 cavity mould. It's only 20 bucks and gets you the ability to try the 500 grainers. With lube and gas check you are looking at 510+ grains-ish. There's not enough bearing surface and the nose is all wrong, but they shoot. Only 20 bucks....

Then you won't be out $100 for a super nice mold, and can spend that on the real shooter mould.

[bigboredad]

that is some very good info and blow a lot of theories right out of the water. thanks for the very informative post.

[TCTex]

Whiterabbit, you are awesome and I will add H4198 to my loading experiences. I haven’t tried that one yet. I don’t know what the exact specs of my barrel are, however it is a typical TC Custom Shop and has a long throat. I have loaded up 15 experimental loads, 5 each, for my 460 with the 300gr Lee bullet on the second crimp line. I am currently using a 452 sizer and just ordered a 454. The last time I went out the best my Encore would do was about 2in with the 300 Lee at 50 yards… It seems my experiences parallel yours…

On the other foot, I am cut and pasting your post for future data work!!! That info you posted was absolutely incredible!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

All work is currently on hold until my leg is up to going out and shooting again. (I had a double compound fracture…) All of my brass is currently loaded… LOL

BigBoreDad, these where the type of PM and email experiences I have been getting…

[Whiterabbit]

Your Mileage May Vary. Alot.

[TCTex]

Lol... :bigsmyl2:


That is have the fun! :drinks:


I am going to find "A" load for my 460, I just don't know what it is yet.

From the conglomeration of information that I have accumulated from users on this wonderful sight I know I have been set in the right direction. :2_high5:

[bigboredad]

Whiterabbit, you are awesome and I will add H4198 to my loading experiences. I haven’t tried that one yet. I don’t know what the exact specs of my barrel are, however it is a typical TC Custom Shop and has a long throat. I have loaded up 15 experimental loads, 5 each, for my 460 with the 300gr Lee bullet on the second crimp line. I am currently using a 452 sizer and just ordered a 454. The last time I went out the best my Encore would do was about 2in with the 300 Lee at 50 yards… It seems my experiences parallel yours…

On the other foot, I am cut and pasting your post for future data work!!! That info you posted was absolutely incredible!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

All work is currently on hold until my leg is up to going out and shooting again. (I had a double compound fracture…) All of my brass is currently loaded… LOL

BigBoreDad, these where the type of PM and email experiences I have been getting…


That is cool I wish they had posted their info so we could all learn from it. I do fully understand why you want to try the bigger bullets and the because I can statement. I'm glad to see you not buckle to the nay sayers

I have to say i have not had much experience with the contender platform. I had a bad experience with one in .45/70 about 20 years ago so I have stayed away from them

[bigboredad]

by the way if you do end up with a plain base gas check maker or you just want to try some different .340's in what ever gun you have drop me a line. As soon as Pat Marlin gets his shop up and running I hope to get a gc myself. I have used some plain base checks from another member and they are great you get the best of both worlds

[Whiterabbit]

I am surprised to see continued disrespect for some forum members here. The "nay sayers" taught me most of what I know, directed much of my experimentation, and if not for them, I'd still be trying to find paper at 50 yards.

When they type something, I pay attention.

[bigboredad]

you are quite correct how ever some naysayers need to remember what topic they are talking about on which thread. So that the topic stays in the right direction or doesn't end up in a big pissing match then closed

[TCTex]

I do fully understand why you want to try the bigger bullets and the because I can statement.

It is funny you mention that. On my first/original thread, I was just wanting to know if my 460 would stabilize a 300gr projectile. I had SOOOO much encouragement, loading data, and recommendations I would be a fool not to at least try the heavy bullets that have been recommended.

I actually had one user compare the 460 shooting the heavy bullets to the 45-70 of old…. They where right. It reminded me of the old buffalo hunters using the Sharp’s rifles. Honestly, just as it has been mentioned before, my wrists are going to be the weakest variable in this platform. I am also glade I had the break installed on my barrel… LOL

As of right now, I will be working with my 300gr Lee bullet and trying to find a hunting load for Texas deer and hogs. Honestly, I don’t know if I can handle the super 460 loads with 500grers, and it might be 6 months before I can get to them, but we will see what this poor man’s 45-70 will do in a 17in Encore.

Anyone have any experiences they can share shooting game with big bullets?

Duane

[TCTex]

I guess I should also mention that I have 20 TC handgun barrels. Having large game calibers including 35-06 JDJ, 338-06, 375 JDJ, 338 Fed, 308 Win, 375 Win 445 SM and 414 SM. With all that being said, I don’t mind making this barrel a little different, or “s-p-e-c-i-a-l” if you were… LOL

Just not “the short bus” special. Muwahahaha

Duane

[Whiterabbit]

. Honestly, just as it has been mentioned before, my wrists are going to be the weakest variable in this platform. I am also glade I had the break installed on my barrel… LOL

As of right now, I will be working with my 300gr Lee bullet and trying to find a hunting load for Texas deer and hogs. Honestly, I don’t know if I can handle the super 460 loads with 500grers, ...

I really don't like that bullet. I'm shooting the last of mine through a muzzleloader and then be done.

But really, I'm posting because I have to say the opposite. I am so glad my gun does not have a brake on it. I fatigue so fast on a S&W X-frame I can't shoot more than 50-75 rounds before I have to stop and rest. 3-8 before I feel like I have to apologise to everyone around me at the range. It's obnoxious, it's loud, it's concussive, and just plain not fun. Add to that the fact that they shoot slower then my BFR and it's not a winning proposition. All because of a brake!

I can shoot ~130 rounds through the BFR at the range with ease. I could probably do more but by then I've learned something about what I came to figure out and can go home to make the next test plan. Sure there is more muzzle rise, but that's it. Everything else is much sweeter.

IMO the gun really is best below max loads. Why do I need such high velocities that generate such report and recoil? Actually makes shooting less fun.

Since I "get" to hunt the condor zone I DO have a lead-free load that uses a 290 grain muzzleloader bullet that I shoot at just over 2000 fps and it's the best grouping bullet I've loaded yet. But I can get really close with the 425 ranch dog bullet for 1/10th the cost shot at probably <2/3rds the speed and much more pleasant at the range. No contest which I would rather shoot all the time if given a choice.

[TCTex]

More good info WR! I can’t do anything about my barrel now because the brake is already there. I do know what you are saying though. My 17in Full bull w/ brake 375 H&H AI could & would clear the shooting range when you pulled the trigger. I am lucky now to be able to shoot on a couple hundred acres of family owned land.

The rounds are already loaded with the 300gr Lee bullet, so It would be a waste of time if I didn’t at least saw how they shot. They could be lousy, I could find a gem… only the good Lord knows.

Duane