Tumbling at my wit's end

[The Cod Father]

I am shooting a S&W 625 in .45ACP with a 230 gn Truncated Cone with LLA over 3.8 gn of Clays . This is loaded on a Dillon 550 with Lee Carbide Dies and a Factory Crimp Die in the 4th position .

I have shot this with great results from another loader but whien I have tried to reproduce this load I get a good round but 80% tend to Tumble like crazy and I am getting square holes at even 10 yards ( I shoot IPSC) . I am at my wits end to solve this . I have checked that the factory crimp sets the round to .452 on the money . I slugged the barrel -.451 . I have tried what I know and now bow to your collective wisdom HELP !!!!!!

The Cod Father

[LUBEDUDE]

Man everything sounds great if it was an auto loader. Thus it makes me wonder about the forcing cone and or alignment of the cylinder.

Any work done here?

If someone is standing next to to you while shooting, are they getting hit with shavings from the cylinder?

[MtGun44]

When you say "factory crimp sets the round (???) to .452" I am quite confused. A
round is a cartridge. You need to know what diameter the boolit is when delivered to the
throat. Also, what are the throat diameters IME, these guns often have very much oversized
throats and this can cause severe inaccuracy, like 18" at 25 yds. The Lee pistol type
factory crimp die has been found by many users to be ruining their ammo by sizing
the boolits down inside the case. Try abandoning this solution looking for a problem
as the first step, but there are many more possibilities with these gems.

Size to throat diam if possible (some extremely large throats and tight chamber combos
prevent this) use a hotter load. I found that working up from 5 gr to 7 gr of Unique (the
last is a hot load, use at your own risk, altho Elmer says 7.5 is best!) that more powder
tightened the groups and moved them closer to the POA of my 1937 S&W .45 ACP (Brazilian
contract). It has .454 throats and with hard .452 boolits it scatters them like throwing hands
full of rocks. With softer, fatter and hotter loads, it shoots much better.

Bill

[runfiverun]

if the boolits are 452.
i would speed the load up a little.
i use 5 grs of titegroup or 6 grs of unique in my 625 and have no tumbling issues.
with a 200 swc,a 225 rnfp,a 230 rn [or even a 160 rnfp with the 6 grs of unique which won't function either of my 1911's]
my "crimp" is more of a case straightener.
i'd say move em along enough to stabilize.

[Greg in va]

Get rid of the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

[Dan Cash]

Throw that Lee factory cripple die in the scrap metal bin, get a Dillon or other taper crimp die, try some bullets as cast, speed your load up to 800 fps or so. I think 6 grain Unique or equivalent was suggested.

[44MAG#1]

I have a 625 JM version and it shoot the 270 SAA bullet at 282 gr from a Mihec mold wonderfully well. I size to .452 but have tried .451 and still excellent results
Also a 454424 Keith and a Magma Eng. 250 gr RNFP like the ones used in Buffalobore ammo.
Also a Saeco 058 SWC at 215 gr.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Measure your cylinder throats, even using a dial caliper will give you a pretty good reading, you can also slug the throats with an oversized lead ball and mic the slugs. Also just try to drop your boolits through the cylinder throats, this is a simple method to look for problems. Measure you boolit’s diameter, again a dial caliper is helpful and a micrometer is more definitive. Then check tension case tension with one of your boolits by simply trying to insert a boolit into a re-sized and belled case by hand. If it slips in without resistance you might find your expanding plug is too large and you are lacking proper case tension which is common problem in .45 dies. All these steps have to be right before you can start worry about the crimp. You are at the low end of the pressure scale for the .45 ACP with 3.8 gr of Clays, and S&W N frames can take +P pressures of 23,000 psi all day long. I’d consider a heavier dose of slower burning powder like Unique. In a revolver you don’t need to worry about slide speed.

[462]

Have you pulled a seated and crimped boolit and measured it with a micrometer? You may be starting off with a .452" diameter boolit, but the Lee carbide handgun factory crimp die may be putting the squeeze on the boolit.

[The Cod Father]

Hi Guys I knew I came to the right people.

LUBEDUDE- I have had no issue with shavings or complaints from either RO or RSO.

MtGun44- Sorry about the terms ,just a slip of the fingers. I origionally had the LEE FCD too tight and it was compressing the boolit down to .450 ish and have dealt with that issue.

I will pull the LEE Die and try loading a small batch .

I will also try uping the powder grains a bit and if that dosen't work I will go back to Unique or 231 but I just bought 4 pounds of Clays so I have to burn through that first .

Thanks everyone ,ask a question and recieve a masters degree worth of good information . I will try and implement some of these changes and see how things go . I will update with results when I get them

Thanks again

The Cod Father

[Griz44mag]

I love the Lee FCD, but it did compress too much with lead boolits. I honed it out several thousandths and all the issues went away.

[44man]

Not only will a LFCD size a boolit but the "stabs" it applies to brass are harder for a boolit to iron out. You create a brass double size die.

[The Cod Father]

44man , "stabs" is not a term I am familiar with . Would you mind explaining what you mean,please.

TCF

[44man]

44man , "stabs" is not a term I am familiar with . Would you mind explaining what you mean,please.

TCF
The crimp ring on the collet is closed into the brass and if to much pressure is used, it will leave marks where the brass was compressed. (sized might be a better word).
You need to be gentle.
Fired brass can look like those that had full profile crimps applied where the mouth is almost ruined. Something like factory .454 loads.
Not exactly "stabs" like the punch marks on some military brass but the brass is still stabbed in instead of rolled.
If you use too much, case mouths will not open fully.
I have seen fellas at the range use so much they squeezed a pretty wasp waist into the soft boolits! :mrgreen:

[Moonie]

The crimp ring on the collet is closed into the brass and if to much pressure is used, it will leave marks where the brass was compressed. (sized might be a better word).
You need to be gentle.
Fired brass can look like those that had full profile crimps applied where the mouth is almost ruined. Something like factory .454 loads.
Not exactly "stabs" like the punch marks on some military brass but the brass is still stabbed in instead of rolled.
If you use too much, case mouths will not open fully.
I have seen fellas at the range use so much they squeezed a pretty wasp waist into the soft boolits! :mrgreen:

Sounds like you are referring to the rifle FCD, the pistol version doesn't have a collet.

[405]

Throw that Lee factory cripple die in the scrap metal bin, get a Dillon or other taper crimp die, try some bullets as cast, speed your load up to 800 fps or so. I think 6 grain Unique or equivalent was suggested.

I'll second that.

A 45 ACP doesn't require a "death grip" crimp- especially not in a revolver. All you need to do is keep the bullet from backing out on recoil.

That LFCD uses a carbide ring that puts a parallel crimp on the mouth depending on adjustment depth. That ring slides down the case mouth creating that crimp. A LFCD for rifle uses a squeezing collet that doesn't slide down the mouth. I know lots folks who swear by the LFCD for their 45 ACP ammo and refuse to listen about how it is not too much different from the conventional roll crimp shoulder already in the seating die. Many of those same folks only shoot Jbullets so no wonder as it won't affect a Jbullet like it will a cast bullet. I too would just set the 45 ACP LFCD aside (use it for Jbullets if you like) and get a taper crimp die for the cast bullet loads.

[44man]

Sounds like you are referring to the rifle FCD, the pistol version doesn't have a collet.
Yes, I have one and will not use it. I never bought one for revolvers.
I did not know they did not use a collet. Forgive my stupidity!
I know about the carbide ring and how harsh the die is for cast.
The loads I seen were 45-70 with soft boolits. I guess they thought a lever gun could use a smaller boolit! :wink:

[sixshot]

My model 25-2 45 ACP has oversize throats, I have a MiHa mould that drops 205 gr slugs at .455", I don't size them, just lube & the gun shoots great.

Dick

[zxcvbob]

230 gn Truncated Cone Which one exactly is that, the Lee "tumble lube" bullet with lots of tiny lube grooves? (I love that bullet in .45 Colt) Or does it have wide driving bands and just one lube groove?

Set the FCD aside and try crimping lightly with the seating die. This especially works well if you can crimp into the top little microgroove of the TL boolit; there's no downside to seating and crimping at the same time that way. You don't need much of a crimp, just turn the case mouth in a little.

[35remington]

"I origionally had the LEE FCD too tight and it was compressing the boolit down to .450 ish and have dealt with that issue."

You can't "deal with" that issue unless you change the diameter of the carbide ring at the bottom of the die. The taper crimp doesn't size the whole bullet; just the front of it where it is near the case mouth.

Try accuracy with no LFCD use whatsoever. Just taper crimp it with a standard taper crimp die. Forget the carbide ring sizing bit. It's a fix for a problem that is better solved another way.

[MtGun44]

Make sure that the boolit is at least throat diameter AFTER being pulled from a loaded
and crimped case.

Please report your throat diameters and pulled boolit diameters. Also, beware of Clays
in .45 ACP. It will not permit full factory velocities without overpressure, it is NOT a good
match for .45 ACP if you are looking for full power loads, although it burns very clean.
Ulitmately, I'd much rather have the wonderful results on target with Unique (dirty) than
the cleanliness of Clays and bad groups.

Bill