9mm luger (1911) Leading

[farmboyu]

I know I've been reading that the 9mm is challenging to load for. Here is what I am using

Lee 124gr tl round nose. I have shot them sized at 356 and as cast at 358 no difference in results

5.6 grn of hs6

45-45-10

bore slugs at .3555

lee hardness tester says 8.7 BHN

leading is heavier on leading edge of rifling and runs the full length of the bore. Accuracy is bad even with clean bore 7-8" at 7 yards some starting to keyhole.

My chamber will take the larger bullet no problem but how do you expand the case that big? I am using a powder through flaring die on a lee pro disk measure.

Your thoughts /advise please.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi and welcome to the forum. In a bore measuring .3555, .356 is a little on the marginal side size-wise and .358 would probably be better in terms of proper fit. I use straight wheel-weights and size a round-nose (Lyman 358242) to .357. 9mm can be a bit of a problem unless/until you get a few issues sorted out; powder is one of them. HS-6 is alright as is a number of others. After a lot of tinkering over the years I settled on IMR 4756 (4.7-4.8 grains). It fills the case pretty much-prevents movement of the bullet which is taper crimped anyway, yields lower pressure than the faster powders and doesn't batter the gun...Luger parts are expensive to replace. Unique, Red Dot, 700X and Bullseye all work but I found that 4756 worked the best for me. Another problem to be avoided with 9mm is seating depth. A slight increase in depth sends pressure way up...that is why neck tension is important and so is the use of a tamper crimp. Repeated loading of the same cases works the necks and hardens them changing their "grip" on the bullet, so after a few times it is better to anneal the case mouths....so feeding doesn' t push the bullet back even a little changing the OAL and raising the pressure. I would stay with .358 bullet dia. and try a different powder or powders with a charge that works things in the 900-1000fps range. Lugers don't have to be run "hot" to run the action or group decently. My loading/Luger will group in an 8" bull at 25 yards, some sevens, eights, nines and tens...not competition grade accuracy, but decent enough for an old soldier without beating it to death. Hardness of bullet...WW's run between 9 and 12 BHN and seem hard enough to get the job done. I never felt the need to quench/harden my bullets. You didn't mention lube and a good lube is important to help prevent leading so try a different one. It sounds like your bullets are "stripping" down in the bore & not getting any kind of grip on the rifling...smearing lead along the way and keyholing...so the grouping is wild. That has to be eliminated. A very slight flare(minimal) is good for starting the bullet, (but no more) and the seating to the right depth(OAL) is essential and the taper crimp is important as the case seats on the mouth. All this may seem like a complicated juggling act, but with some experimentation and careful attention to detail, the 9mm can be successfully loaded to perform well. LLS

[FergusonTO35]

That particular boolit can be frustrating. It can shoot well but my experience has been that you need a hardball alloy of around 15. My current batch of alloy is too soft for it, I'm getting leading with starting loads of Unique. I would advsie getting some harder alloy, if you have some commercial cast bullets on hand that work well in your gun that would be a source. Another option would be to switch to Lee's 125 grain RNFP .358, this one has been getting good reviews here. I'm fixing to try it myself.

[noylj]

Been shooting 0.357-0.358" bullets of about 8-12 BHN for decades without problems.
Sounds like you are doing "everything" right and your 9mm is simply not cooperating.
However, have you looked at your expander plug?
The expander needs to increase to case ID, over all/most of the distance the barrel will be seated, to 0.002-0.001" less than bullet diameter. You may want to measure your case ID after expanding, seat a measured bullet, pull the bullet, and remeasure the bullet OD and case ID. You can get a custom expander plug from Lee or Lyman (ref. Lyman M-die).
Having lead along the leading edge can indicate lube failure.
Have you tried pure LLA? That's all I have been using in my cast bullets for quite some time--a very light coat of LLA, such that the bullets are still shiny "silver." I have found that two light applications help with bullets of marginally correct OD. RanchDog, as I remember, prefers to dip his bullets in LLA--thus insuring more than sufficient quantity of lube.
I plan to try Recluse's formula, but for the past few years, I have found very little cheap lead and many excellent commercial cast bullets. When the cost of lead is almost the same as the cost of bullets, I figure buying bullets means more shooting.
Also, be sure the bore is clean of any residual copper deposits, too.

[captaint]

Plus one - what noylj said about checking your expander size. I have gone to straight WW boolits for my 9mm and I think I'm going to add a little monotype next time I pour up a bunch and see how hard that makes them. I am personally not a fan of tumble loobing. But you might try Ranch Dog method of dipping them in Alox. If any method works, it should be that one. Let us know how it works out.. enjoy Mike

[farmboyu]

Thanx for the input guys. I have now read the sticky on using the 38 expander for 9mm. I would like to keep the pro auto disk set up and make the mod to get my cases expanded a little bigger

As of now my cases are 353 id. and pulled bullets are 355-355.5 they are not 356. My concern was that expanding this much would create outside case dimension issues. I measured fired cases that still fit the chamber with no trouble and they came out at 384-388.

Will putting a taper crimp on the cases not cause the bullet to be shaved down as it leaves the case?

I think another problem was is that I used a lee factory crimp die to taper crimp........the problem is that die is set up to also automatically size the case wall and as such swages the bullet down. I will adjust my seat die to apply a slight taper during the seating stage.

One thing I did learn is that with a redding t7 and the auto disk even with hand feeding primers I can load at about 275/hr comfortably and I have no mechanical hiccups or adjustments to make.

My first go at casting was for my m14 and the lee 185 in 314 sized to 309 35 gr 4895....with gas check and 45-45-10 the bore stays very shiny and the load is consistent.

[popper]

Soft alloy and Lee FCD will resize the CBs, hot load will make em strip and give keyholing. Get a real TC die, don't try seating and crimping in the same step. Reduce your load or harden your alloy. You might try a SWC or TC so the CB seats straight and have better terminal performance. You can try flaring without sizing the cases (with a proper crimp die to only remove the flare - but check neck tension on some dummys), sounds like it will fit your chamber. Finding the correct oversized expander is a real experience.

[farmboyu]

Okay I think I've been successful...........I bought a lee 38/357 powder through expander and made an insert similar to the one in the "sticky" except its all steel (I have a lathe) now my cases are expanded far deeper and the expanded portion is 354-355 diameter ..........at the mouth its a full 358.........I got rid of the lee fcd and got a taper crimp.........with the taper crimp the cases are 380 outside diam at the mouth........I also got a 358 sizer..........'we'll see if that does it........I'll let you all know.

[MBuechle]

I've had leading issues with my 9mm also with the Lee 124TL boolit. This morning I shot some 125 HP's from my new MP358-124 mold and got virtually zero leading. I'm sized to .358 for a measured .357 bore and using Lqd. Alox/JPW blend for TL'ing. So you may want to try a conventional lube groove boolit for the 9. I'm going to change lubes as the leading I got looks like lube failure in the last inch of bore.

[rooster01]

I'm in the same boat as you. Boolits were being swaged down with the 9mm Lee CFCD. Now I use the 38/357 Lee CFCD instead and it's a perfect fit.

[MtGun44]

Ditch the Lee pistol type FCD, they are a useless ambomination. If you are actually
sizing down the brass, then something is wrong with the size die or setup. If you are
not sizing down the brass, then you are doing nothing but taper crimping in a much
more expensive die. Many have found them to be ruining properly sized boolits.

Your boolits are too small to start with and the 'hope and pray' sloshing lubes are
pretty marginal for 9mm. Some swear by it, many swear at it. Try a known good lube
like NRA 50-50 (Javelina, etc) or LBT soft blue and the Lee 356-120 TC conventional
design at about .357 or .358. Hard alloys are not necessary.

Try this sticky:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737

Bill

[Griz44mag]

Lead at less than 15BH in a full power 9mm is going to give you fits.
I had severe leading until I checked the Lee chart for pressure vs hardness and upsized my sizer to .358. I have settled for 18-21BH at 31K pressure on a 125gr cast bullet and get perfect results, very accurate and no leading. Softer leads can be used, but accuracy will suffer. I have proved this in testing with a S&W Sigma and a RIA 1911. I use White Lube Co CR for a lube on this bullet. The bullet is a MP 125gr hollow point or solid.

[noylj]

Griz44mag:
Sorry, I have loaded 9x19 for 40 years and it was all lead after about 6 months. Only alloy I used was 10-12 BHN and never had leading as long as bullets were 0.001-0.002" larger than groove diameter. This included full-power 102gn L-SWCs at over 1500fps.
Proper fit and proper lube goes further in my experience than hardness. Only time I needed a harder alloy was for rifle rounds without gas checks. For gas-check bullets in 7mm TCU, .30-30, and .30-06, I still only needed a 10-12BHN alloy.
Never got better accuracy with a harder alloy.
I have proved this with two preWWII P08s, two WWII P-38s, two BHNs, one S&W M59, two CZ75s, and one 1911. Groove diameters run from 0.355" to 0.3588". Fit is king.
Currently, my lube is Lee Liquid Alox. Ran experiments in 1978 and found that in 9x19, .38 Super, .45 Auto, and .44 Mag, that sized bullets were NEVER more accurate than as-cast bullets, so I got over-sized sizing dies for my Lubri-Sizer. Soon after, I started pan libbing. Then, when LLA came out, I started tumbling. Lee 358-102-SWC at slightly over 1500fps without leading showed me that LLA is a very cheap, easy to use, and effective lube. Alloy was WW with enough Pb/Sn solder for good bullet fill-out.
YMMV and what I find may not work for you, but my experience is just as valid.

[MtGun44]

+1 on noylj, up until the LLA stuff starts. I am not a fan of LLA, had miserable results the
few times I tried it. I know some have good results, but I dislike the smell, mess and sticky
boolits so I will leave it alone.

Bill

[Griz44mag]

No sweat noylj, every reloader has their own experiences, and has found the sweet spot for them. I load softer lead (pure range lead) in light loaded 9mm, 38 super and 44 mag for practice and the classes I do for new shooters. Like you, I have found that fit is very important, and have sizer dies from a few thousandths below to a few thousandths above for cast bullets I use the most. By running the range from smaller to larger, mixed with power levels from weak to strong, and lead from soft to hard, I have found the sweet spots for my favorite calibers and guns. Across the board, I find that fit, pressure vs hardness and a well seasoned barrel are the things that produce the best accuracy. Some of the hotter loads I was striving for just couldn't get as accurate as I wanted them to be, so backing off the speed, which also meant backing off the pressure, which meant backing off the hardness, finally produced the results I desired. In the meantime, the hogs and deer seemed to be totally unaware of what I was doing, and it's a good thing too, because they might have been harder to kill if they knew I was using lower pressures and softer lead. Like you, a satisfactory end result makes us happy.

[Griz44mag]

MTGUN44, surely you didn't shoot that warthog in Kansas. Those things look mean!

[9.3X62AL]

The 1911-series 9mms are among the more lead-friendly 9mms out there. They have tighter grooves and slower twists than most 9mm platforms.

I don't use LLA for primary lubing. I started this game before LLA was around, and have used Lyman 450s since that time.

Treat the 9mm like it's a rifle, not a handgun. Predicate you boolit diameter on the barrel's throat diameter, or maybe .0005"-.001" bigger. .357" seems do well in all of my 9guns.

Check the diameter of your die set's expander spud. My RCBS set's expander mics @ .353" (barely), and you can bet and win that a .357"-.358" boolit will be sized down upon seating under those conditions. Try the use of a 38/357 expander spud before running the brass into the powder-pouring/flaring step.

Taper-crimping can screw things up royally. Cast boolits do not have the same "spring-back" ability that brass has, and over-setting the taper crimp can have the effect of loosening and reducing diameter of cast boolits. Also, it is well-nigh impossible to seat and taper-crimp a cartridge at the same time without reducing a boolit's diameter--these MUST be seperate die steps.

I use the same alloys for 9mm that I use for rifle boolits--92/6/2 or 90/5/5. BHn runs about 14.5-15.0. Another example of treating the 9mm like a rifle caliber in terms of ammo prep.