Argentine Rolling Block yard sale find

[OTThomas]

Okay so this is my first black powder cartridge firearm and I have always wanted a rolling block. I found this rifle today at a yard sale and payed $200 for it, the hammer tension is very strong and the bore looks pretty good. But I do have a couple problems I think. I can't find any where on the internet another RB with this type of finish, does anybody here know if this is right for this gun? Another question, the guy said it fired 43 Spanish but after a little research I found that some were converted to other chamberings, is there any other way to tell what caliber this is or will I have to buy some cerrosafe? Here are some pictures, any help would be appreciated thanks.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_200594fe49b929e11b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5655)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_200594fe49ba7e82ee.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5656)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_200594fe49bcc42941.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5657)

[handyman25]

I have done chamber castings using sulfer purchased at the drug store. Cheap and close enough to tell what the calber is. I melted the sulfer in my lead ladle. I made sure the chamber was clean and then applied a thin oil coat. Do it out side, sulfer stinks.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

It looks as though someone has tried to blue the rifle. When you do this to case hardened steel the finish usually turns purple.

[OTThomas]

Is there any way of telling if this was a recent attempt at bluing, I read a little about how the military blued right over the old rust, so cold this possibly be a Argentine bluing job?

Thanks for the replies, Thomas

[Nobade]

The ones the Argentinians rebuilt look like new, a dark blue/black. That is not one of those. Does it smell like cold blue? Good find though! If it has a decent bore it should be fun to shoot. Too bad Jamison is out of business, their cartridge cases made rifles like that a whole lot more practical to own and use.

[mazo kid]

Okay so this is my first black powder cartridge firearm and I have always wanted a rolling block. I found this rifle today at a yard sale and payed $200 for it, the hammer tension is very strong and the bore looks pretty good. But I do have a couple problems I think. I can't find any where on the internet another RB with this type of finish, does anybody here know if this is right for this gun? Another question, the guy said it fired 43 Spanish but after a little research I found that some were converted to other chamberings, is there any other way to tell what caliber this is or will I have to buy some cerrosafe? Here are some pictures, any help would be appreciated thanks.
OK, sure some were rechambered/rebarreled but what makes you think this is the case with your rifle? If the guy you bought it from said it shot 43 Spanish cartridges, did he mean that HE shot 43 Spanish cartridges or that it was chambered for same? Anyway, that was a great find!!

[OTThomas]

Thanks, the guy said he bought a while ago at an auction for $50 and that he took it out once in a while to oil it an keep it in nice shape, but he never fired it. I took the gun all apart and all of the metal parts are entirely the same uniform brownish color. So whatever made the rifle that color may stay a mystery. I did get some cerro-safe and took a chamber casting, and slugged the bore and found out it is in fact 43 Spanish.

I also have a couple loading questions.

First off I would really like to fire modern powder out of this gun, black just seems like a little too much work. I would really like try shooting trail boss out of this gun to keep the pressure low, so if anybody could give me a load with trail boss and the lyman 370 cast bullet that would be great.

With trail boss powder, do I use a black powder lube, or smokeless lube in this gun?

One last question, when I cast these bullets up, should I use pure lead?

Thanks a bunch to everyone

[Don McDowell]

Do not ever try to assume low pressures from trailboss. The stuff is an extremely fast burning powder and as such generates pressures nearly twice that of blackpowder, yet only generates velocity of roughly 2/3 of what velocitycan be accomplished with black. Go look at the data contained on hogdons web page and then rethink your low pressure statement.

[Dan Cash]

It is difficult to tell from your pictures regarding the finish but high nickle steel turns purple when hot blued. That is kind of what your gun looks like and is likely when you say internal surfaces are the same color. High nickle content steel-good. Pay attention to what Don McDowell says regarding Trail Boss. It can be a sure way to burst a black powder action.

[John Boy]

How do you know the rifle is an Argentine Rolling Block? Does it have this marking?
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/BPCR/IMGP1033.jpg
If so, the caliber is 43 Spanish. If no marking, then buy a 43 Spanish case from Buffalo Arms ... http://www.buffaloarms.com/Buffalo_Arms_Reloading_Brass_it-157258.aspx?CAT=3839 or do a chamber cast
11.15mm Spanish Remington ... http://stevespages.com/milriflecartworld.html

Argentina used the the 43 Spanish caliber in the Rolling Blocks from 1879 to 1891. Then they converted to 7 mm rifles

[OTThomas]

Thanks for the replies, yes it does have that marking and after doing a chamber cast I found out it is 43 spanish.

Thanks a bunch for the trail boss information, I thought that was THE powder to use when wanting to substitute for black powder.

So, are there any loads with modern powder that are safe in the gun or should I use black powder? If so, what type of black powder? Can I use pyrodex?

Thanks again

[Wayne Smith]

Unless it is locally unavailable use the original FFG or FFFG BP. If not available locally it is available through mail order. The Maine Powder House is one source. It's not that hard to load, and the only really problematic part is compression. There are a number of ways of doing that, the simplest is simply a dowel section that you can put pressure on. I turned a plug out of corian and use my arbor press, but that is overkill. You don't need a 1 ton press to compress powder! Buffalo Arms sells powder compression dies.

You are really better off with the real thing. Cleanup is easy, just soak the brass and brush, or clean in SS or ceramic media and soapy water. Drop the brass in a bottle of soapy water when you fire them, the vibration of driving home from the range does half the cleaning. All of the alternates are more problematic than the real thing. Pyrodex in particular will rust almost anything.

[oldred]

I would really like try shooting trail boss out of this gun to keep the pressure low


I don't know if it's happened to anyone yet, and maybe I harp too much on the subject, but I honestly believe this "low pressure" myth about Trail Boss is dangerous! I made the same assumption, that because of the pitifully low velocity of TB it had to be low pressure, I checked the data and learned that's WRONG!! While not really high pressures result from using published data the pressure can easily exceed BP pressures (by a lot!) while producing far less velocity. The 45/70 data, for instance, for TB vs other powders on the Hodgdon site can be a real eye-opener about TB pressures and they list several other powders that produce a great deal more velocity at a lot less pressure than TB, it may be great stuff for low performance pistol rounds but be careful with rifle cartridges!


Personally I am not a purist and have no problems with someone wanting to use smokeless in the proper situation but IMHO if a person only feels comfortable with black powder pressures for the rifle they are shooting there simply is no really good substitute for real BP.

[Don McDowell]

There's a horrendous difference between running smokeless loads and the higher pressures thru a modern made modern steel gun, and running those loads thru a rifle that is crowding 140 years old.....
Having this similar discussion not long ago on another board, and what researching thru pressure data in various places turns up, is that even the starting loads for the vast majority of smokeless powders far exceed the pressure of maximum blackpowder loads. So it's a fairly safe bet that any smokeless load is likely to exceed the pressure an old rifle recieved during proof testing in the blackpowder era.

[John Boy]

So it's a fairly safe bet that any smokeless load is likely to exceed the pressure an old rifle received during proof testing in the blackpowder era.
Gentlemen - Read Don's words again. Memorize them and don't forget them!


Originally Posted by OTThomas View Post
I would really like try shooting trail boss out of this gun to keep the pressure low Use Trail Boss to keep a low pressure? The powder has a burn rate of 19!

[oldred]

There's a horrendous difference between running smokeless loads and the higher pressures thru a modern made modern steel gun, and running those loads thru a rifle that is crowding 140 years old......



True, and to just clarify what I said earlier about using smokeless "in the proper situation", that would be in a modern built firearm capable of handling smokeless powders. I may not be a purist but a person does not need to be to understand the folly of trying to use smokeless loads in any firearm built during the black powder era and IMO that should include the so-called BP subs!

[Don McDowell]

oldred +1 on the subs.. They also operate at higher pressure than real black, and every manufacturer of the stuff uses that as a bragging point.....

[jhrosier]

Hodgdons Triple-7 powder, ffG grade, should work well in your RB.
777 will give slightly higher pressures and velocities than real black powder, but safe for any gun in good enough condition to fire with real black.

I have used it in several different calibers with satisfaction. It does need to be cleaned the same as real black powder but the cleanup is quick & easy with warm water and a bit of dish washing soap.

Load enough powder so that the boolit will compress the powder about 1/16" when seated.
Always use ffG, NEVER fffG for cartridge guns.

Deprime and wash your cases after firing. I put mine in a big plastic juice bottle with hot water & soap for a half hour, shaking them a couple of times. Then I rinse with hot water a couple of times and lay them out to dry overnight.

BTW, I seem to get better results with pistol primers than rifle primers.

Jack

[OTThomas]

Thanks for all the info jhrosier.

[405]

It's not that TB and other similar very fast powders can't produce the pressure and bullet velocity, it's that the pressure curve of such powders is SO SHARP the pressure may rocket past the safe structural limits of the firearm and/or the brass case before the inertia of the bullet is overcome.

That purplish color (if that's what it is) is very normal for many guns with certain types of steel or certain types of hardened or cast parts. That color looks normal to me for that gun. You'll even see that color on many fairly recently manufactured foreign guns.

Both the Lee Modern Reloading manual and Cartridges of the World list some smokeless loads for the 43 Spanish if you're so inclined.

[smokemjoe]

I use the lyman 43 cal. bullet, or the 43 mauser bullet sized down to fit, I have shot 30 grs. 5744, 15grs. unique, 20 grs. 4277, with unq. I get 7/8s groups at 50 yds. I used buffola arms cases, made from 348 Win. Keep your loads light and no troubles, This works in all 3 of my rifles, check your bore size, all seem to be a little different,Shot at your own rish, Joe

[OTThomas]

Okay so all the stuff came in the mail yesterday, and I have more questions.

First off does the rcbs shell holder work when using the bertram 43 spanish brass? The Lee shell holder would not work so I had to grind it out to just try out the dies.

Also what do I do about trimming the brass, lee doesn't make a case length gauge.

What black powder do I use??? Most people on the internet use 2Fg, but Cartridges of the World says the military loading is 78 grains of Fg, does anyone have load data for either powders??

Lastly, can I just use a dowel or something to compress the powder and can I use a homemade cardboard wad and a lube cookie?

[Don McDowell]

1F if you can get it, 1.5 KIK is also good.

[turtlezx]

So are there any smokless powders that would sub for black safely?????

have same issue with a bp iver johnson pistol that i would like to use smokeless in safely

[Mooseman]

So are there any smokless powders that would sub for black safely?????

have same issue with a bp iver johnson pistol that i would like to use smokeless in safely

Pyrodex...

[oldred]

Pyrodex is of course not smokeless but could be used, however if your pistol was built during the BP era and was intended to shoot BP then smokeless powders could be risky, certainly there are some low pressure smokeless loadings but then OTOH a lot of older firearms have been ruined by what people thought was a safe smokeless load. The BP subs, like Pyrodex, could be used but what would be the point? I mean honestly what advantage do the the subs have over real BP?

[turtlezx]

how does 3 grs of red dot sound ??? 148 gr cast bullet round nose

for the bp ij ??????????????? 38 s&w

[Nobade]

how does 3 grs of red dot sound ??? 148 gr cast bullet round nose

for the bp ij ??????????????? 38 s&w

This should have its own thread, but I wouldn't shoot any Red Dot in my old black powder revolver. That would actually be a pretty high pressure load in that small case.

Why not use real gunpowder? I know it's kind of intimidating at first until you learn how to deal with it. But once you know what you're doing you'll wonder why you ever messed around with the nitro powder. BP is simpler, safer, easier to clean up after, more fun to shoot, etc. The only advantage I see with nitro powder is you don't have to clean your gun the day you shoot it. Everything else goes in favor of black powder, in guns designed to use it.

[Boz330]

I would be pretty leery of using smokeless in a BP Iver Johnson of any caliber. They were a pretty low end firearm. JMHO.

Bob

[nwellons]

Okay so all the stuff came in the mail yesterday, and I have more questions.

First off does the rcbs shell holder work when using the bertram 43 spanish brass? The Lee shell holder would not work so I had to grind it out to just try out the dies.

I use the RCBS 22 holder for my .42 Spanish cases.

Also what do I do about trimming the brass, lee doesn't make a case length gauge.

I use calipers to measure and then a Lyman case trimmer - the simple one with a hand crank.

What black powder do I use??? Most people on the internet use 2Fg, but Cartridges of the World says the military loading is 78 grains of Fg, does anyone have load data for either powders??

I always use Goex FFg in mine.

Lastly, can I just use a dowel or something to compress the powder and can I use a homemade cardboard wad and a lube cookie?

It depends on whether you are going for ultimate accuracy (then you need measured compression) or just plinking and shooting for fun (which is what I do.) I use punched out wads and grease cookies, then when seating the boolit, press firmly on my simple Lee single stage $35 press to ensure there is a little compression to eilminate any air space. I only neck size so the very small press works fine for me.

I shoot the .43 Spanish blown out to .42 Berdan in my Russian Berdan bolt action but do similar reloading with .43 Egyptian in my rolling block.