38 S&W tricks

[Molly]

Hi guys,

At the last show, I picked up an old nickeled solid frame 38 S&W that cleaned up to near new condition. (You all know what a bargain is: something you don't need, but a price you just can't pass by. There aren't too many guns I won't buy for $20.00, out the door.)

During the cleanup, I noticed that the cylinder was considerably longer than necessary for the round, and just on a whim, I dropped a .38 Spl case into it. Still didn’t fill the cylinder, but a .357 case filled it nicely.

Hmmm. No room for a bullet, but … a loaded 38 Spl wadcutter filed the chamber nicely, and the hollow base should expand to take the rifling … Hmmm

Hmmm. Both the 38 S&W and the 38 Spl were black powder rounds, and thus loaded to the same pressures … and the .38 Spl wadcutter was loaded to even lower pressures. And I didn’t have any serious money in it, and I was curious, so …

I took it along next trip to the range, and touched it off from behind a tree. Went bang, and that’s all. So next time, I aimed it. Shot about 20 degrees above the point of aim. I’d need a front sight about an inch high to even come close to point of aim.

Yeah, the 38 cases swelled up slightly in the oversized chamber, but not badly at all. I’ve sure seen ‘normal’ .38 loads that expanded more in 38 revolvers. But the high impact was the real problem. And that was obviously due to greater recoil.

Here’s the point: Has anybody got any experience in loading ammo with a fully recessed bullet (AKA the Russian Nagant revolver)? I’d like to see what could be done to get the POI close to the POA, using 38 or 357 cases, and the bullet seated well below the cylinder mouth. I’m thinking of a lightweight slug loaded in a .38 or .357 case to provide a lot more interior room to reduce pressures and / or allow for higher velocities. Hopefully, that'll reduce muzzle flip and give me a more reasonable POI.

Any suggestions, or am I too far out in left field? I don’t want to spend any money on dies, etc, as this thing is just going to be stored in my car or swapped off to someone that’s looking for a nightstand gun.

[Buckshot]

..............A solid frame S&W in 38 S&W? Is it a Victory or M&P (civilian)? I have a Victory model and it will not accept a 38 Special. I also have another Victory model my dad bought from a CA Higway patrolman in 1964, with a shortened barrel (4"), and it WILL take a 38 S&W. I believe someone has run a 38 Special reamer into the chambers to make it, er ...............better?

Very obvious difference in the height of the ledge before the forcing cone in the chamber and different angle too. If it IS a V model or M&P or model 10, or whatever you wanna call it, it will handle 38 Special pressures. Does the serial number have a V in front?

...............Buckshot

[Molly]

..............A solid frame S&W in 38 S&W? Is it a Victory or M&P (civilian)? I have a Victory model and it will not accept a 38 Special. I also have another Victory model my dad bought from a CA Higway patrolman in 1964, with a shortened barrel (4"), and it WILL take a 38 S&W. I believe someone has run a 38 Special reamer into the chambers to make it, er ...............better?
...............Buckshot

Man, don't I wish! But for $20?? No, this is just an old octagonal barreled H&R in 38 S&W, with 'straight-through' chambers, with no forcing cone. That's why the .38 Spl / 357 cases will drop in.It was designed to go bang reliably, not necessarily to go bang accurately. Accuracy expectation was 'minute of burglar' at a distance of 'across the bedroom.'

FWIW, I was a clerk in a gun store when those 'rechambered' Victory models first hit the market. Beautiful pieces, but every one I ever saw had NOT been rechambered with a 38 spl reamer. They'd been 'rechambered' with a twist drill bit until a .38 spl would chamber. The idea was to make them more valuable on the used gun market, being 'chambered' for a more powerful and more popular round. Sheer butchery! Hope your at least got a proper reamer used on it. (I understand some did.) You can tell by looking at the chambers: If the walls are smooth (almost polished) throughout, it's at least got that advantage. If the chamber walls are rough past the first half inch or so, it's a twist drill job. Either way, it ruined a fine revolver: If you shoot it with 38 S&W, accuracy is shot because the bullet isn't properly guided in the bored out cylinder, and if you shoot it with 38 Spl, not only isn't it safe to reload the swolen cases, but the .357 bullet in the .360 bore tends to impact rather randomly, especially after the leading begins.

[9.3X62AL]

If it is truly chambered or marked 38 S&W, I would be prompted to try HBWC's seated into 38 S&W cases almost chamber-length, adding powder weight SLOWLY until sights and impact point met somewhere close. 38 Special case diameter is .379", while 38 S&W runs about .386"-.387".

No chamber step at all? That condition is consistent with heeled-bullet calibers, not inside-lubricated calibers like 38 S&W.

[fourarmed]

I picked up some .38 Spl. cases on the range once that at first glance appeared to have been necked down. I finally decided that they were flush-seated match wadcutters that had been fired in a .38 S&W. I didn't see any chunks of revolver anywhere, so it must have worked.

[Molly]

If it is truly chambered or marked 38 S&W, I would be prompted to try HBWC's seated into 38 S&W cases almost chamber-length, adding powder weight SLOWLY until sights and impact point met somewhere close. 38 Special case diameter is .379", while 38 S&W runs about .386"-.387".
No chamber step at all? That condition is consistent with heeled-bullet calibers, not inside-lubricated calibers like 38 S&W.

Hi Deputy Al,

Yes, it IS marked 38 S&W, and there is absolutely no variation in the chamber diameter from front to back. FYI, this is consistent with heeled bullet rounds, but it is also consistent with the cheapest sort of revolver. I have another junker (a 'Vest Pocket Pistol') (chambered and marked for the .32 S&W Short) that has straight chambers. I load for it with .32 S&W Long cases, with a lightweight slug inverted to appear like a full wadcutter in the loaded round. Works fine.

Dunno why I didn't think of seating 38 spl wadcutters in 38 S&W cases. Too obvious I think. Or mebby just too intelligent. I'll give it a try.

[9.3X62AL]

On Tuesday, I took one of my 38 S&W's (S&W K-frame M&P Victory Model) to the range for a little ballistic therapy. With boolits sized for its throats (.363"), it shot wonderfully--keeping the dinger plate at 25 yards dancing and spinning. These included some Lyman #358063 wadcutters provided by Buckshot from his wide-bodied mold, and some RCBS Makarov boolits sized at .363". "Beagled" Lyman #358430's sized at .361" didn't do quite as well--but hit that plate right smartly when they connected. 200 grains and 95 grains from the same platform have differing strike points and strike effects at 25 yards, for sure.

Your comments about "re-chambered" Victory Models were unsettling, so during clean-up I looked at the chamber steps in the revolver's cylinder. They are correct for the 38 S&W cartridge. I was pretty sure I had checked for that when I bought the piece a couple years ago, but a re-check was reassuring.

[Molly]

... during clean-up I looked at the chamber steps in the revolver's cylinder. They are correct for the 38 S&W cartridge.

Ahh, then you have a sweet little piece of history. The 38 S&W isn't a .357, but it never pretended to be. It IS a highly effective small game round, and if'n somebody ever points one at me, he'll be the best friend I ever had, and I wouldn't do ANYthing to upset him ... (Until he turned away. Then I might be tempted to give him a lesson in socially acceptable behavior.)

But it's a fine round, in and of itself. I've actually seen rook rifles chambered for it. That one's a keeper.

Molly

[9.3X62AL]

Once the critical dimensions get figgered out, the 38 S&W can be a lot of fun to play with. Another interesting factoid--those undersized #358430's are actually longer (.810") than the case holding them (.775").

I almost grabbed another one at the Reno Gun Show a couple weeks back--a Colt Police Positive x 4". It was just a little too pricey, but if I didn't already have 3 examples in the caliber I might have succumbed anyway. Pretty little thing, about 90%.

I guess oddities attract me.

[Buckshot]

..................Oh, it's a H&R. I just caught the 38 S&W part and thought it was a Smith. I'd for sure stick to 38 S&W loads intended for break opens. Loads like 1.8grs of Bullseye and a 148 gr wadcutter. There is a group buy going on right now for a duplicate of Remintons 150gr RN at .363" OD in a 6 cavity set of blocks.

http://www.fototime.com/8DAF2A1F0B9E0C6/standard.jpg

My 'Play toy'. An old Iver Johnson, Superlative workmanship. Only issue is a somewhat wide bbl-cyl gap. Doesn't shoot too bad though.

http://www.fototime.com/B8AC5913DE564B1/standard.jpg

This is a 5 shot group shot with it. I used the Lyman 358063 wadcutter as cast at .363" and tumble lubed. Cast of pure lead.

http://www.fototime.com/8EB1F9344794021/standard.jpg

Deputy Al's pistol is exactly like this one. We both bought them from the same guy.

http://www.fototime.com/20E262CE102F9D8/standard.jpg

The "Worked on" Victory model. It has definetly had a 38 Special reamer run into it. I think the guy that had it before my dad bought it may have had the work down. The barrel is shortened to 4" and the front sight, which SHOULD be intregal with the barrel had been cut off and placed back on. A very nice job as the solder seam is actually only visible a bit on the right side.

................Buckshot

[chevyiron420]

i have a 38S&W revolver also. mine is a smith&wesson marked"regulation police" on the barrel i holds five rounds, its nickel and pretty nice. i have the wood grips for it and packm%&*$# rubber grips on it. i dont know if it has a model number??-phil

[lathesmith]

I stumbled onto one of these S&W Victory model 10's some time back, and it's a great piece of history. It is definitely chambered for 38 S&W only, and it shoots HBWC's and others just fine. Mine has several cool markings, like "United States Property", 19 54, a flaming bomb, etc. I understand this one has been around the world some. According to some info I have found, this one was shipped to Britain under Lend Lease, then ended up in Australia. Somewhere along the way it picked up a set of non-standard, but period correct, checkered grips. I found a nice smooth grip set on the 'bay, now it looks correct. I know, the serial numbers of the grips don't match, but I am happy with it just as is.
I tried to upload a photo, but I guess it was too big or something. Anyway, there is something appealing about these old 38 S&W's...
Lathesmith

[BluesBear]

Chevyiron, the .38 S&W Regulation Police was introduced in 1917.
Reintroduced after WWII in 1949. It became the Model 33 in 1957.
The early ones were built on the old, shorter, I-Frame and have a flat mainspring like the larger framed revolvers. In the late 1950s it was built on the improved I-Frame and used a coil mainspring.
The Model 33-1 was started in 1961 and was built on the J-Frame.
If your gun is marked Regulation Police it's probably an I-Frame or Improved I-Frame and finding correct fitting wooden stocks will be a challange.

[chevyiron420]

thanks bluesbear, i got out to look and it has a flat mainspring. the front sight is a half moon and the barrel is very thin or slender. i have the wood grips for it i just dont have them on it cause i have great big hands!-phil

[BluesBear]

Phil, if the serial number is 54,474 or below then it's pre WWII.
If it's 54,475 or above it's post WWII.

[chevyiron420]

bluesbear, how about 161xx ?-phil:castmine:

[Buckshot]

...........lathesmith, mine is marked "United States Property" on the left side of the topstrap. Then on the bottom of the right side of the frame up toward the front it has 1954 FTR, and some other British markings. I think that 'FTR' means it's been ah, .........refreshed :-)

The bobbed barrel blued Vicotry model in the photo, I had supposed had been refinished. However some have told me that the first Lend Lease revolvers had the comercial blue. And this one does have a significantly lower serial number then the Parkerized one, along with a nicer polish job.

..............Buckshot

[BluesBear]

Chevyiron, My guess would be the early to mid 1920s.

You can contact S&W and get a letter that will tell you exactly when it left the factory and to where it was originally shipped.

[Bret4207]

Rick- Imagine the work that went into those IJ's and what it would cost these days. And this for an "economy" gun! There's a 6" 38S+W IJ top break at a local shop. Horrendous double action pull, but real minty appearance wise. I'd like to find one of their target sighted versions someday to see if that helps me shoot them better.

[jobo12]

Chevyiron, Don't lose those grips,
The Regulation Police was the 32 / 38 Hand-Ejector model that was "uprated" for police use. Most police departments at the time specified square-butt grip frames for holster use. You'll see that the back-strap on the grip frame is "rebated", or cut so that the extended wooden grips come down into the square butt shape without the frame strap actually following the contour. Finding new grips would be tricky. I have both a Mod. 33-1 (J-frame) and the Terrier (I-frame). They are great little guns that are both packable and shootable. There are issues with handloading cast boolits for them, but thats what these threads are all about. Fortunately, this site has tons of expertise ('way beyond what little I have) in reloading for these older calibers, and there enough of the small & medium framed .38 S&W revolvers available in good shape to keep interest high. By the way, does your piece have the "normal", S&W contoured, cylinder opening latch, or an unusual- looking "flat-latch"?
...Joe

[chevyiron420]

joe, the latch looks like the last picture on this thread of the blue gun with the bone or ivory grips. mine is nickel plated with the finish having a little trouble around the grip area. she is still tight and timing is good. i had no idea it was as old as it is going by is condition. my ex boss bought a general store a long time ago lock stock and barrel. two 38s&w revolvers and some long guns were under the counter. i got the revolvers from him. one of them was a h&r topbreak hamerless. i had it apart for a trigger spring job and someone stole it from my gun room. thank god they couldnt find the smith. i havent done much of any shooting with it, but do have a full box of factory loads. maybe i should try it out.-phil:Fire:

[BluesBear]

I don't think the flat latch thumbpieces weren't used until after WWII.
A prewar Regulation Police should have the standard thumbpiece and well as the standard long action hammer.
The trigger pulls on those prewar I-Frame guns are simply amazing.
That old long action was smooth.

[lathesmith]

Buckshot, that sounds very similar to mine. Mine has the "flaming bomb" near the lanyard on the butt, that is supposed to be an extra feature. I would have to look it up, but I think that FTR with the 19 54 are the Australia markings--something about these guns going to Aussieland after THE war before finally being retired. I'd say this gun of mine has been shot very little. Can you tell if your blued chopped 38 there had the lanyard in the butt? I was thinking that was supposed to be a distinguishing feature of the Victory model, along with of course the V to begin the serial no. I believe over a million of these were made, so it wouldn't be surprising if some of the early ones were blued. You would think these guns would be more common than what they are, but I'll bet a bunch of them were "improved" by reaming the chambers or otherwise butchered. I understand the British used a 200 grain load for more "stopping power". I have used a Lyman 195 grainer in mine, just for grins, but I couldn't really say if it would have more "stopping power" or not. I also understand a common load was something like a 173 grain FMJ. I guess all these heavier weight loads were for solid frame guns, I would hate to try them in a breaktop.

[BluesBear]

For the later part of WWII Colonel Charles Askins, Jr carried his old Border Patrol Colt New Service .38 Special. The only ammo he could find was the old Winchester 200gr Super Police load.
He reported shooting a German soldier twice with it at close range ahd he was DRT. One shot was an in and out going through not only the soldier but his pack as well.

The 200gr load works well as long as you don't shoot in from a snubnose. It needs all of the velocity you can muster.


The British 38/200 cartridge is lighter than the .38 Special it is still too stout for the old breaktop pocket revolvers. But it works fine in a K-Frame or a Webley/Enfield.

After the war S&W issued cautions regarding shooting conversions "improperly done" by others.

[lathesmith]

Well, I certainly wouldn't argue with Col. Askins, and he had obviously done some "in the field" research! The things one can learn from the posts in this forum...no wonder I'm hooked!
Lathesmith

[Four Fingers of Death]

Col Atkins kinda left me a little cold with his graphic accounts of how he shot a POW through the kidneys for smashing distributor caps on a couple of trucks and how he shot a civvi who was crawling under the wire and going through the GI's pack looking for valuables, money and choclates. Both behind the lines and not really a shooting offence in my book. Not gonna say anymore, just left me a little cold. Never had much time for him after reading his accounts. Mick.

[Scrounger]

Got to disagree. Breaking the distributor caps could very well have been an act of sabotage, and what was he going to do next? Are you aware of all the things Skorzeny's English speaking Commandos did behind the lines in December 1944? Wearing GI uniforms yet. So too the 'civilian' crawling under a fence toward Americans; How do we know he's a civilian just because he's not wearing a German uniform, and how do we know he didn't have other things in mind to do? From someone who has never been there, I think any person in the position soldiers are in during a war is scared all the time and most likely to shoot first and ask questions later. And any damn civilian or POW who does something stupid around them deserves what he gets. You have every right to dislike Askins or anyone else you choose but your reasons don't wash.

[BluesBear]

Askins Jr is certainly a controversial character for sure.
I grew up reading of his experiences in various books and magazines. I didn't always like what he did. But I liked him.
However I'm probably a little prejudiced because he was a family friend.
I didn't know him personally but I knew of him from people who did.
It seems he was a very likeable person. And most people liked him. Some just had to work a little harder at it than others.

So I'll only comment in his defence in this one post and then I'll drop it lest it turn into another bruhaha.

Askins Jr titled his biography "Unrepentant Sinner".
A more fitting title I cannot imagine.

He told it like it was. He didn't claim he was a better person or that his actions were always of the highest ethics.
But he was first and foremost a;ways true to himself and his family and he always displayed an amazing loyalty to those people, places and things he believed in. He was a product of the times and of his environment.

While I recommend his biography to everyone, I also guarantee that everyone who reads it will probably be offended by something, somewhere in that book.
That's just the way he was. Good or Bad, Right or Wrong.
Perhaps better described as Good and Bad, Right and Wrong.


Anyway, there are other places, much more apropos, in which to debate his actions and values than in this thread and I apologize for any hijacking.

[waksupi]

A friend of mine, killed his barber years ago. Said the guy gave great haircuts, and was a very friendly type. However, he happened to get caught in some .50 cal. bullets, when going in over the wire with a satchel charge one night, along with several hundred of his buddies.

[BluesBear]

Now there's a story that deserves its own thread.

[MT Gianni]

This whole thread is interesting. Gianni

[9.3X62AL]

The 38 Special 200 grain Super Police loads ran their bullet about 725-730 FPS from 4" barrelled S&W Model 64 service revolvers. These loads were among those I chronographed as part of an ammo study I helped with prior to the adoption of autopistols by my agency in 1987. These were still "in print" by W-W at that time, we had them laying around--so we added the data to the +P JHP results we submitted for that caliber.

Some data that Buckshot gave me a few years ago concerning the 38 S&W by Ken Waters gives some recipes for the 38 S&W using 190-200 grain weight-class bullets getting a bit over 700 FPS. I can't find the copies right now, I hope they turn up while I box up the garage for the pending move. I did assemble some of these loads for the M&P, and the recoil thump they provided was like that of the Super Police loads from 20 years ago--pretty substantial for a 38 Special. They also provided a pretty good response from dinger plates at 25 yards. I sure wouldn't like to stop one.

[lathesmith]

I have loaded some Lyman 358430 bullets in 38 Special. Around 3 grains of Bullseye yielded about 600 fps with this 195 gr bullet, and the velocity varied little from a 2inch snubby to a 5 inch S&W Model 10. I also used some Bluedot with this bullet, somewhere around 5 grains yielded about 650 fps with four inches of barrel. Both were decently accurate loads, and fairly consistent too. I have used the light Bullseye load in 38 S&W cases, with a longer than normal overall length. Velocity was about the same as above. I think a better load would use a slower powder, to hold peak pressure lower. I would say 700 fps should be possible with a bit of experimentation.
BTW, I did not construe BB's comments referring to Col. Askins' use of the 200 grain load as an endorsement of everything the Colonel did, just a historical reference to a load that I was wondering about. And I agree with Deputy Al, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of these for sure.