uberti model 73 in .44mag

[no-horse]

did any one see the uberti model 73 in .44mag.341260 Carbine .44 Mag 9+1 19" Blue Steel Frame, Rubber Recoil Pad, Case-Hardened Lever $1,259 do you people think this safe

[Lonegun1894]

I hate to say this, especially since this is based on reading and NOT personal experience, but I would hold off for a while before I spent that kind of money on a gun that may or may not last in that caliber. I mean, at least give it some time to let reviews start coming back as to the durability and quality of the concept. I have always been under the impression that the '73 was a very smooth, but fairly weak, um, i meant delicate, design that didn't tend to do well with high pressure rounds like the .357, .44 mag, etc. Now if they just kept the outside lines but redesigned the internal components into something that can handle this, then please disregard my comments as they wouldn't even come close to applying. I mean, the '92 is one of the strongest pistol lenght actions out there, and handles .357, . 44 mag, and I know it is made in the .454 even, so the '73 being the same general size but with a different internal design could be very strong, but not with the original internal links and such.

[felix]

Question, is it safe for what maximum pressure? I have no idea, but being a cowboy gun of any type, I would limit loads to 40K CUP under any circumstance. For a steady diet of fun shooting, I would make loads which approximate 25K CUP plus of minus 5K. ... felix

[Four Fingers of Death]

I saw one advertised about a year or two ago. I think if Uberti was marketing it, the rifle would have to be capable of using odd the shelf level ammo. As far as I can see that is a tall order for the 1873 with a toggle action. Maybe the Ubeauty 44 Mag had upgraded internals?

I will have to Google it, lol.

UPDATE:

yep, here it is, they don't mention any difference in it compared to the other models. Interesting.

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1873-rifle-and-carbine.php

If I only used factory ammo, I would be reluctant to use one of these for a constant diet of it. As far as most of us are concerned, we would be loading cast at less that full house pressures. I think if you wanted to continually stretch the envelope, this is not the gun for you, but if fed a diet of sensible, capable game getting loads, this would be a nice rifle in a cartrifge that has a stout, trouble free case.

[pietro]

did any one see the uberti model 73 in .44mag - do you think this safe


No. IMHO, none of the toggle-link actions, like the M73, M76, & the Bullard repro's are.

.

[Wayne Smith]

I did notice that the 44Mag models are listed as "Blued Steel Frame" rather than "Case Hardened Frame". I have the Short Rifle in 44-40 Case Hardened. I wonder if there is really a difference internally or just the finish?

[Four Fingers of Death]

I did notice that the 44Mag models are listed as "Blued Steel Frame" rather than "Case Hardened Frame". I have the Short Rifle in 44-40 Case Hardened. I wonder if there is really a difference internally or just the finish?

All of the Uberti 1873 frames are steel, the 19" always seems to be only offered in a blued saddle ring carbine finish. My friend Wnadering Hans has one in 357. It works a treat and has a beautiful blued finish, but looks a little odd being so shiny and dark coloured. I guess we are all attuned to a case hardenend finish in 1873s.

[WinMike]

Alas, not sure if this applies to the 44 Mag, but I have the Uberti in .357. I've fired all kinds of loads, including some thumper 180 gr. Nosler loads, and have not had any issues. Those Nosler loads measure 1855 fps in my rifle's 20" barrel.

Modern steel is much stronger than steel in the 1800s, and as noted above, the thrust is not on the toggle link joints anyway.

I suspect there's not much difference.....other than appearance....in blue vs. case-hardened. My understanding is that much of today's case hardening is done by chemical process, and doesn't actually affect the steel's surface hardness.

That being said, none of the working parts are case-hardened, so.......

[Four Fingers of Death]

The originals had an iron frame as far as I'm aware.

[WinMike]

The 44 magnum has more rearward thrust then the narrower diameter 357 magnum...

I'm not aware of any program which measures "rearward thrust." It's easy, however, to figure bullet kinetic energy.

A .44 Magnum (7.5" barrel) develops muzzle energy thusly:
200 gr JSP @ 1282/fps = 760 lb/f
240 gr JSP @ 1500/fps = 1200 lb/f
320 gr LFN @ 1300/fps = 1201 lb/f etc.


And a .357 Magnum (20" barrel):
180 JSP @ 1855/fps = 1375.03 lb/f

"But wait, Mike," you say, "the 44 Mag will develop more velocity from a longer rifle barrel, thus producing more muzzle energy than indicated by your tables."

How true. So let's use a more relevant measure.

Reloading manuals show the maximum CUP of those .44 Mag loads are around 38,000+. The 180 .357 Mag. load (as well as many other .357 loads) is 40,000 CUP. The two calibers are pretty close......various authorities say that's by design. And CUP is measured in firearms' chambers; barrel length is irrelevant.

Further, since the .357 rim diameter is .440" vs .44 Mag .514", it might be reasonable to presume that there's more "rearward thrust" from the smaller footprint of the .357......er, maybe.....probably?!

Besides hurting my head, all this figurin' leads me to believe that the hundreds (thousands?) of Uberti '73s produced using modern steels are not only safe in either .357 Mag or .44 Mag., but the hundreds (thousands?) of shooters who are shooting these rifles regularly are probably the best informed sources.

And to the OP's question: "Sure, it's safe. Buy it!"

[HDS]

I would buy a .44 mag 1873 Uberti if it came in a 20" short rifle config instead of a carbine. Then I'd use it as a .44 special platform. As it is now I am just gonna buy one in .44 special instead.

[W.R.Buchanan]

an 1873 is not going to feed specials and magnums interchangably is it? I thought those guns were pretty sensitive to cartridge OAL due to the length of the lifter and no way to stop the next cartridge from protruding from the magazine. Isn't this done by cartridge length?

Also a .44 does have more bolt thrust than a .357. Same pressure, bigger case head means more lbs per square inch at the point of contact which is the toggle link not the bolt face.

What fails on 1873 when pushed too hard is the pivot holes in the toggle links get wallowed out.

The older Winchesters used some kind of steel for the actual toggle links. Lets say it was 1018 cold rolled steel which has a tensile strength of 60K psi. (in reality it probably wasn't even that strong) Making the toggles out of any kind of cro-moly steel of today would double that tensile strength. And with conservative heat treating could triple it.

I would assume that Uberti/Benelli would have upgraded the steels in these guns as a matter of simple engineering and probably uses Cro-moly thruout the receiver and barrel.

I think the new guns would be significantly stronger than the originals. However the actual design is not inherantly strong to begin with, and even with the improved metals I think a steady diet of magnums would beat the links out of it eventually. That might be, considering how much a .44magnum rifle would get fired in it's owners lifetime, enough service life. If it lasted 1000 rounds most guns would never see that much use. Cowboy shooters being the exception, but Cowboys are not going to be shooting full house or factory .44 magnums either. So with light loads it might run for a really long time.

I think it was odd that the .44 magnum version of the rifle was the only one that was blued instead of case hardened (maybe superior heat treat) and only available in one configuration .

In the end I guess the only way to find out if the gun can take it,,, is to buy one and shoot the hell out of it. I don't think Uberti would market an unsafe gun.

My .02

Randy

[HDS]

an 1873 is not going to feed specials and magnums interchangably is it? I thought those guns were pretty sensitive to cartridge OAL due to the length of the lifter and no way to stop the next cartridge from protruding from the magazine. Isn't this done by cartridge length?

True I am not sure if it would work with both or not. My special loads though all use .44 mag brass so it's all the same length as 44 magnum. I have read on CAS city forums that the ubertis have a different toggle link system akin to that found in the 1876 models, it uses a 'key' or something and this is apparently a stronger system.

Uberti also says the 44mag version will only be available in blue because of how its heat treated. Guess case coloring would interfere with it.


When I get an 1873 I will probably turn it into a dedicated black power gun anyway, the only reason I go with .44spl over .44-40 is I don't feel like getting extra reloading equipment and dies, or having to find .44-40 brass in addition to everything else. I can just cut down 44mag brass that have developed mouth cracks this way and get more life out of them.

[WinMike]

Also a .44 does have more bolt thrust than a .357. Same pressure, bigger case head means more lbs per square inch at the point of contact......

True.....but only if one suspends the laws of physics [smilie=b:

Uberti also says the 44mag version will only be available in blue because of how its heat treated

Is that statement on their website? That might answer the question as to whether or not Uberti's case-hardening is chemically applied or actually fired in charcoal.

On the other hand, in perusing their site, I sort of get the idea that Uberti's application of blue or case-hardening is based on firearm model, not caliber.....hmmmm :-|

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1873-rifle-and-carbine.php

[HDS]

Here's some info about the key, the thread has plenty of info on the topic too:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?PHPSESSID=222cc54ae4aa90654853f4c96d7bc2 88&topic=30606.msg402064#msg402064

And from uberti:
http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21663

[W.R.Buchanan]

WinMike: you needed to read the last few words "which is the toggle link not the bolt face."

Bolt thrust in not on the bolt face itself,,, it is against whatever is holding the bolt face in position.

IE the toggle link pivots.

On a bolt action the bolt thrust is against the locking luggs.

As far a physics go. Larger diameter case head equals more surface area. More surface area with the same pressure against it equals more thrust.

That's the simple physics of the situation.

Randy

[WinMike]

HDS, thanks for those links.....interesting forums.

As far a physics go. Larger diameter case head equals more surface area. More surface area with the same pressure against it equals more thrust.

Alas, Mr. Buchanan.....just because you say it, it doesn't make it true.

Let's re-visit 9th grade physics, and recall Newton's 3rd law of motion: If a body A exerts a force on a body B, then body B exerts an equal and opposite force on body A. What that means is that the force exerted to fire a bullet exerts an equal force in the opposite direction, i.e., on the rearward face of the chamber (which is a bolt, block, etc.).

If the force (in this case, chamber CUP or PSI, i.e., the powder burning) is the same in two different calibers, it doesn't matter if one caliber is smaller or larger than the other. Equal force is equal force is equal force, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

Thus endeth today's lesson. Let's all go out and enjoy recess. Marbles anyone?(we can watch Newton's 3rd law in action!)

[NickSS]

I have had a Uberti in 357 mag and it never gave me any trouble with full factory loads. Also Italy has a proof test law which requires guns to be proof tested in a state run proof test facility. They are tested to ensure safety at full CIP presure rating which means a 150% overload. As CIP ratings are the same as SAMI ratings used in the US that means that the Italian government test facility has proof tested each of those rifles in 44 Mag. They are safe but how well they will stand up to full power loads over the long haul is debatable. and has more to do with the quality of the steel and heat treatment of same than anything else.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Since you brought up marbles, do you remember that the big ones (boulders) didn't move as much when you hit them with your shooters (smaller ones). That's cuz they were bigger.

Conversely: when hit by a boulder, a pot marble would exit the ring. Shooters were usually slightly larger than pot marbles so they would react more when hit by the shooter.

I was Ventura CA City marble champ in 1958. I beat out 30+ other kids for the title.

L-R Boulder, shooter, cat eye pot marble, and a perre. I was bummed I couldn't find my Agate shooter.

I still have most all of my Marbles.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just thought of a better analogy to explaining bolt thrust that I'm sure anyone can understand.

Which will exert more force? given the same pressure applied.

A 2" hydraulic cylinder with 3000 psi on it or a 6" hydraulic cylinder with 3000 psi on it? This should be a no brainer?

This is exactly what I am trying to convey to you about bolt thrust as it is exactly what is going on in a firearm. Bigger case head at same pressure equals higher bolt thrust.

I hope this explains for us why the Uberti 1873 is only available in .44 magnum with a differently heat treated receiver which is stronger to cope with the increased bolt thrust of that cartridge.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

If I was cashed up. I'd go and buy one of each and resolve this thread. I think the rifle wold no doubt handle factory loads, but a solid diet of them would adversely affect the rifle, much as the older S&W Handguns started to loosen up with a solid diet of knuckle buster loads.

If you want to push the envelope over a long period of time, I have a feeling that this is not the rifle to do it with.

But then again this is just another opinion based on theory and experience (unfortunately not with this particular chambering in this particular rifle).

I don't think the metal work is any different, they all state the same specs re steel, but Uberti generally finish their saddle ring length carbines in gloss blue,

[W.R.Buchanan]

FFOD: I agree with you that a steady diet of factory fodder would kill this thing. The extra heat treating they do could prolong this, but the problem is with the toggle link breaching mechinism. All of the forces are transmitted directly to the weakest parts of the system which are the pivot pins. The holes get enlarged by constant pounding and that's what makes the gun loosen up.

There isn't enough surface area in the pins to disapate the energy effectively over a period of time and as they wallow out the holes in the arms it gets worse as you add the momentum of the running start the bolt gets against the pins from the looseness, thus accelerating wear.

Like said above I think the gun would be safe for limited use with factory loads and would probably last as long as one in .44-40 with similar loads. Which I think is what they are thinking of.

If I was getting into Cowboy shooting I would buy one of these to run with low range special level loads, simply because I have 2 .44 revolvers, a Spec and a Magnum.

It is the first cowboy gun Other than the Marlin 1894 Cowboy in .44 Mag that has come out. What I'd really like is a Colt Lightning in .44 Special. But nobody makes one. For all the same reasons.

Randy

[WinMike]

Mr. Buchanan, you keep repeating the same thing over and over, hoping that at some point it'll be true. Just like in politics, it doesn't work that way.

3000 lbs. of force is the same, regardless of the size of the item exerting said force. (although the smaller footprint of your 2" hydraulic cylinder is more likely to penetrate a softer surface because it's "pointyer."

I think the confusion lies in the difference in bullet weight. .357 bullets usually peak at 200 gr., with 158 gr. being the most common. The most common 44 Mag bullets are .240 gr.

Remember that 9th grade physics lesson? "The greater the object exerting force, the greater the force in the opposite direction".....we call it recoil.

So a .240 gr. bullet will exibit more recoil if fired at the same velocity as a .158 gr. bullet. Of course, if the 158 gr. bullet is fired with more velocity, then the 158 gr. bullet will create more recoil (which has more recoil, a .240 gr. 44 Mag., or a 160 gr. 30-06?).

Again, simple physics. And no, the footprint/diameter of the cartridge case has nothing to do with it.

Incidentally, that's why we have broader/bigger recoil pads for high-power rifles, vs. the ornate pointy scrolls we see in drawings of primitive muzzle-loaders.....it's still physics and failure to understand one of the basic laws isn't going to change said law.......

[KCcactus]

WinMike, you are confusing psi (pounds per square inch) with pounds. Mr. Buchanan is correct that the same pressure (psi) over a larger area means more total force. 100lbs applied on 1 square inch is 100psi. 200lbs applied on 2 square inches is also 100 psi.

Or, as Mr. Buchanan would say, 100psi over 1 square inch applies 100 lbs of force, 100psi over 2 square inches applies 200 lbs of force.

[happie2shoot]

i think 2 square inches has 4 x the area of 1 square inch and = 400lbs

[dbldblu]

I have actually completed college level physics courses and Mr. Buchanan has it right.

[WinMike]

OK...I give!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Tapered case like a 44-40 is not the same animal, it wants to back out.. Oiled chamber or case is detrimental also.

The 44/40 is a tad different to other cases, having such a thin neck, it readily expands to fill the chamber and would grip a bit better than it's shape would suggest.

My 44/40s full of Black seal off the chamber very well and come out pretty clean. My 45Colts (and on the odd occasion that I have used teh 44Mag for this role) don't grip the chamber properly and are covered in crud.

If you used 44Mag revolvers with smokless in cowboy action, this would be a fine rifle to use with them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I glad this is settled. I was beginning to worry that we were headed for another brass springback discussion.

Randy

[no-horse]

so is it safe or not

[Grapeshot]

Winchester's 1879 test of the Model 1876s action strength

________________________________________

I don't know how many of you fellers have read this, but this excerpt from Bill Hockett's 2002 article on the Centennial Winchester explains the strength testing that Winchester performed on the new model. it is a bit of am eye opener.

"The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 1876 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

[W.R.Buchanan]

I wonder why they never chambered it in .45-70? I have always read that it couldn't take the pressure of a .45-70. and a .45-70 from that era was not exactly a hot rod by any means. That's why the 1886 came about. Also there was the 1881 Marlin.

I'm kind of curious how they got 165, and 203 grains of powder in that case that would only hold 75 gr of powder?

Were they muzzle loading it?

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think the problem was the length of the case more than anything. They must have loaded it like a muzzle loader with a primed case in the chamber. I can't think of any other way.

[9.3X62AL]

Grapeshot--

THANK YOU for posting that EYE-OPENING information. I would not have predicted such strength/integrity from the toggle-link action system, and would have wagered some folding money against the described outcome.

I still don't harbor warm, fuzzy feelings about 357 or 44 Magnum chamberings in Win 73 system platforms, but I'll concede that my prejudices could be all wet.

This does beg the question......assuming the Winchester test outcomes are valid, why not use High Velocity loadings of 32-20/38-40/44-40 in the Win 73s, and why the development of the Win 92 to cater to such loads?

[Grapeshot]

I wonder why they never chambered it in .45-70? I have always read that it couldn't take the pressure of a .45-70. and a .45-70 from that era was not exactly a hot rod by any means. That's why the 1886 came about. Also there was the 1881 Marlin.

I'm kind of curious how they got 165, and 203 grains of powder in that case that would only hold 75 gr of powder?

Were they muzzle loading it?

Randy

The action would have been overly large and heavy, that's why the .45-75 was a bottle necked cartridge.

As to the loads quoted, yes, they were loading a primed cartridge in the chamber and loaded the powder and bullets through the muzzle.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Probably the 1886 heralded the way for the future and the 92 allowed shorter, neater (and probably cheaper actions.

[WinMike]

I wonder why they never chambered it in .45-70? I have always read that it couldn't take the pressure of a .45-70. and a .45-70 from that era was not exactly a hot rod by any means.

On p. 65 of my copy of R.L. Wilson's book on Winchesters, he mentions TR Roosevelt's 1876 half-magazine 45-70. But in the text, Roosevelt 3 favorite 1876 rifles were 40-60 and 45-75. The text also mentions the other common '76 calibers: 50-95 and 45-60 as well as a few others. A quick glance through Cartridges of the World show only the 45-75 was bottle-necked; the others were straight or slightly tapered.

I hate to say it, but it would appear that Wilson's mention of a 45-70 in a 1876 might be (gasp!) a typo? (blame the editor; certainly Mr. Wilson knew better). The US military 45-70 was 2.73" long; the 1876 was designed for cartridges up to 2.25"

Certainly some of the cartridges designed for the 1876 have similar....or greater....ballistics (e.g., 45-60 & 45-75) than the 45-70, but all were shorter, i.e., no longer than 2.25"

[Grapeshot]

The .45-60 can be loaded to duplicate the .45-405-55 loadingof the 1873Trapdoor Carbine ammo the Army used. It kicks more, but it is accurate in my Chapperel copy of the 1876 in .45-300-60.