How much does water dropping increase hardness?

[ShooterAZ]

I mixed up a pot of 1part tin/30 parts pure roofing lead yesterday and cast up a bunch of 45 acp boolits. I tried water dropping for the first time ever. I gave them the "thumbnail" test when I got home from work this evening, and they can be barely scratched. VERY noticeably harder than a couple of the rejects that came out before I started to WD them.

Who needs lino when one can obtain these results! Is it just hard on the outer layer, or is it all the way through and through? I'm impressed with this method. Just curious about how much, percentage wise, it hardens the boolits.


Thanks...Shooter

[montana_charlie]

I mixed up a pot of 1part tin/30 parts pure roofing lead yesterday and cast up a bunch of 45 acp boolits. I tried water dropping for the first time ever. I gave them the "thumbnail" test when I got home from work this evening, and they can be barely scratched. VERY noticeably harder than a couple of the rejects that came out before I started to WD them.
I've never water dropped a single bullet because I don't need hard ones. But, I read about it often.

One thing I am certain is that it takes antimony to make water dropping harden an alloy. Pure lead and tin will not harden.

Another thing ... before I go ... the thunbnail test is about as useful as flip-flops in knee-deep snow.

CM

[gray wolf]

Charlie --you posted while I was typing.

I may get corrected here but--
I think what you experienced was a little normal hardening of your bullets from the addition of the tin.
I don't think an alloy lacking in Antimony will water drop harden.
A 1/30 alloy is very soft, great for black powder, not that you can't use it.
I wouldn't push it to hard in a 45 A C P --675--750 with the proper fit to your barrel and a good lube. Have you slugged your barrel ?
Water dropping an alloy with the proper constituents will definitely harden bullets
But I believe it's not as penetrating as to the dept of hardness as oven hardening.
A proses that you use an oven at about 450* F for about an hour and then slow cool. But again I don't believe a non antimony alloy will harden.
Most 45 A C P bullets do not need to be water dropped. But then again I believe most are a little harder than 1/30 tin/ lead.
Well that's my best call, so the experts will confirm or deny.

[ShooterAZ]

The tin I used to mix was 95/5 lead/antimony solder...so they do have a smidge of antimony. The boolits are much harder for sure than the ones not WD. I guess I need to get a hardness tester...And yes barrel has been slugged and boolits are going to be sized at .452. Lube is White label BAC.

[ShooterAZ]

The lead I have is sheet roofing lead, and I literally have a ton of it. My understanding is that it is pure, but I'm not really sure. I have lino, but now I think twice about how I mix my metals.

[popper]

cable sheathing has lots of antimony and other metals in it to keep it from 'creeping' or sagging. Arsenic speeds HT hardening.

[35remington]

Oven heat treating yield the best hardness as the temperature can be controlled to a greater degree than dropping a bullet from a mould into water.

An "average" heat treat for me, from the oven, is BHN 27. Running things at the very, very ragged edge, where the bullets were on the verge of bubbling, I got BHN 33. This, of course, with an alloy that will heat treat, which for me is predominantly wheelweights.

[gray wolf]

Grey Wolf,
By heating to near melting point and them allowing the boolits to slowly cool, you are annealing (softening) the boolits. If you were dropping them into water right from the oven they would quench and precipitate harden.
excess650 is offline Report Post
You are absolutely correct--My bad, I had a little brain fade.
Or as we say in Maine: I had it right, just backwards.

[FergusonTO35]

I've always water dropped my boolits, mostly because I find it easier than dropping them onto a cloth. I also like the satisfying brief sizzle they make when they hit the water. Seriously though, I would like to get into heat treating my boolits. Can you set the level of desired hardness in a given alloy by temperature? I don't need anything super hard like a 27, but I would like all my boolits around 15 or so. Is heat treating at lower temperatures, say 300 F, effective for this purpose? My alloy has always responded well to water dropping, its a mix of range lead and wheel weights.

[shadowcaster]

The tin I used to mix was 95/5 lead/antimony solder...so they do have a smidge of antimony. The boolits are much harder for sure than the ones not WD. I guess I need to get a hardness tester...And yes barrel has been slugged and boolits are going to be sized at .452. Lube is White label BAC.

At a 1/30 tin/lead mix that equals 3% tin added. That's a bit too much for my liking. I try really hard not to exceed 1% tin whenever possible, as it's expensive, unless it's my only fix to proper mold fill out and when possible no tin at all depending on my alloy. Your extra hardness is coming from the antimony in the tin you are using.

Some super hard from Rotometals would be a more economical way to add antimony to your pure lead if water dropping is what you want to do. Let us know when you get a chance to test them and give the results.

Shad

[sqlbullet]

As others have said you need antimony to make quenching do much for you.

In my tests with lead from isotope cores, casting from a 700° pot, air cooled were 11.23 average for ten pulled from a batch of 30, water dropped were 29.5 average of ten pulled from a batch of thirty.

The samples were preserved for two years. Those same batches were tested at that time. Air cooled had age hardened to 16.73, while the quenched had age softened to 24.29.

The results of the data on hardness over time seems to indicate that a given allow will have a stable hardness value that can be determined and for isotope cores this seems to be in the area of 22.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I've always water dropped my boolits, mostly because I find it easier than dropping them onto a cloth. I also like the satisfying brief sizzle they make when they hit the water. Seriously though, I would like to get into heat treating my boolits. Can you set the level of desired hardness in a given alloy by temperature? I don't need anything super hard like a 27, but I would like all my boolits around 15 or so. Is heat treating at lower temperatures, say 300 F, effective for this purpose? My alloy has always responded well to water dropping, its a mix of range lead and wheel weights.
I don't think when lead is cooler than 300 degrees it will harden at all. I do think the hotter the lead the harder it will be when water dropped or oven treated at least to a point. I'm not sure about this but I think when water dropped at a good pace at least as fast as I can cast with two molds the lead will be hotter than 450 degrees when it hits the water. The tempature of the water may have some hardening effect also.

[FergusonTO35]

Ok, if you are heat treating the boolits how long should you let them "cook" in the oven? What do you do when you are done heat treating them in the oven? Do you leave them in there to cool at the same rate as the oven? Do you take them out of the oven and let them air cool? Need to know, I'm planning to try this out.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Ok, if you are heat treating the boolits how long should you let them "cook" in the oven? What do you do when you are done heat treating them in the oven? Do you leave them in there to cool at the same rate as the oven? Do you take them out of the oven and let them air cool? Need to know, I'm planning to try this out.
I think you have the wrong idea about using an oven, you only use an oven to hardin the boolits, buy heating them then dropping them in the water. Oven heat treating is just extra work. I personnaly don't like oven treating because it costs money. Water dropping works just fine for me and water dropping is real cheap. Air cooling is best done by letting them air cool on a towel right from the mold.

[Trey45]

I get additional hardness out of straight wheel weights by water dropping. I tend to water drop everything since I might use the same boolit for plinking that I do for "business" use. If I'm really going to push lead, I use a GC boolit, seems to solve the problem right there.

[trixter]

A little off topic, but what is plumbers lead, % of pureness (appx) and hardness?

[Gohon]

This article will explain everything you need to know about heat treating bullets. http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm The advantage of oven heat treating is you can control the BHN level with more consistency. The only cost involved is what electricity the oven uses which is just penny's and a little extra time on your part.


BTW.......the oven method can also be used to soften water dropped bullets back to what they would have been if air cooled.

[bruinruin]

A little off topic, but what is plumbers lead, % of pureness (appx) and hardness?


Are you asking about the mix called plumber's solder that's used for lead pipe joints?
If so, most of what I see is 50/50 lead/tin.

If asking about wire solder that's used for sweating copper pipe, most of it is lead free and runs 95/5 lead/tin, though there are other blends commonly available.

[Gohon]

A little off topic, but what is plumbers lead, % of pureness (appx) and hardness?

Plumbers lead comes in a couple different forms if found. Use to be used to seal old cast iron pipes after they were sealed with flax. Some is in sheet form and was also used as shower drain pans and roofing flashing such as around a chimney. If found it is as about as pure lead as it can get........probably 5-6 bhn. Best source is probable contractors that remodel or tear down older homes.

[popper]

Way too much tin. Don't know why you need that hardness in 45 anyway. I'm using 98/1/1 in a stout 40SW load that does fine, as in holes are round and on paper @ 25 yds. 1-2% tin is all you need unless Sn%=Sb % and you Oven HT, then 95/2.5/2.5 works for my rifles. I quit WD when I realized this.