45-70 sizing question

[mdevlin53]

I have only been reloading a short time and the 45-70 is my newest caliber. I shot about a hundred rounds on friday and as the first step i deprimed them and in the process i was having a lot of trouble running them into the FL size die. I have both a Lee and a CH die sets, they both would not size all the way without some force. These include new factory loads and some i loaded with 2F Goex. I dont think there was an over pressure issue as the BP loads were not overly large or compressed and well i hope the factory loads were within spec. The problem is also apparent with unfired cases both starline and Remington. I do not have a large press it is one of the smaller lee presses(single station) Any ideas.
Thanks
Michael

[montana_charlie]

What kind of lubricant did you use on the cases?
CM

[mdevlin53]

I have a spray on can of case lube and i cant remember the brand but i even tried some remington gun oil to see if it would help it did but only a little.

[dualsport]

Will the fired cases go back in the chamber easily? If so then all you need is enough tension to hold the boolit. What kind of gun?

[mdevlin53]

H&R Bufffalo classic. the cases came out easily and fit right back in with no problems.

[TXGunNut]

My Hornady sizing die is an overachiever as well. I've learned to only size the mouth enough to hold the boolit. Takes some trial & error but works well if you're loading for one gun. I think a case mouth diameter .002" smaller than the boolit diameter is working for my Guide Gun. For my single shot 45-90 I simply compress the powder to give me the OAL I'm looking for, I don't even bother sizing the brass at all.

[MT Chambers]

I always full length resize my 45/70s for consistency as partial sizing may be less exacting. I have no problem but use a big press with lots of leverage, either the Rockchucker or Co-ax, big difference.

[mdevlin53]

TXGunNut
That is what i ended up doing it is just strange that with two different dies i still end up having to de-prime using a manual de-primer from an old lee classic. but maybe the problem is really a non-issue anyway.

[EDG]

Your press is kind of dainty I would say.
I have a lot of 45-70 brass acquired once fired from many sources before it became legal tender.
I use several dies and rifles. None of my brass has been hard to size but I use a 1972 RockChucker.

[bigted]

you are washing the cases before trying to size em rite? that fouling from blackpowder will cause havoc if left unscrubbed...the primer hole as well. just shootin ideas out here.

welcome to the forum by the way.

[Tatume]

In my experience sizing effort of the 45-70 is directly related to the pressure when the case was fired. Some of my cases were so hard to size that I have had to use an extender bar on my RCBS Rockchucker, and these were max loads of IMR 4895 in the Trapdoor category (fired in a Marlin).

I no longer see any value in abusing my shoulder, or in expending excess effort to size cases, or in reducing the life of my cases. Nowadays, instead of 2000 fps, I push my 350 and 400 gr cast bullets to 1400 fps (using milsurp powder at $6 per pound). Sizing effort is minimal, case life is great, accuracy is improved, and killing power is perfect.

Take care, Tom

[Hiwall55]

as TX gunnut said, you only need size the end about 3/4 inch,try backing your die out to do this and annealing the brass. i don't even use lube on my 45/70's to do this and accuracy is fine. you don't need full power loads for most of your shooting

[largom]

I never liked the spray-on case lubes and Rem. gun oil will not work as case sizing lube. You can lube your cases by hand with a small amount of Imperial sizing wax or just plain old STP. A small amount on your fingers rubbed onto the case will do the job.

Larry

[drcook]

I usually use a lube pad and RCBS water soluble lube. It sounds as if you are having lubrication issues compounding lack of mechanical advantage.

ADDITIONALLY,

what does a fired case measure right in front of the solid web by the rim ? Are the cases ballooned out ?

If part of the issue is a generous chamber, constant full length sizing can result in the case separating right in front of that web.

You need to do some more investigation. I am shooting up to 45-110's with 108 gr of 1F, just as a majority of the crowd I run with and no one is having issues like this UNLESS another reason, (other than load level) comes into play.

I even size 45-100 cases down to a .429 based cartridge and 45-90 cases down to make 40-82's from, and when the lube is correct, you don't have to lean into the presses.

[mdevlin53]

Well i went at it this morning again and i think Largom hit it on the head. I used a little 3 in 1 oil and they started to size much better. the spray on stuff is a waste of time. Additionally a fellow was selling a couple of rockchuckes on the site and he will be sending one my way so i can use my dainty little lee on some of my more dainty rounds(no offense EDG you are right about that press). BTW i did measure the rounds and they are basiclly the same size as the unfired new cases i bought from Midway so its is most likley not a chamber issue.
Thanks for all the replies you guys really help a new reloader quite a bit.

[wgr]

H&R Bufffalo classic. the cases came out easily and fit right back in with no problems.

i have a buffalo classic and never size my cases. i just size my boolets to .461 and taper crimp just enough to hold the boolet.

[drcook]

Additionally you had mentioned in the first post about your BP loads not being overly large or compressed. The only thing that can happen is you can bulge your case. You would be amazed at how much powder and how much compression I and others use. Plain old Goex, 1F/2F really like to be squished.

Don't worry about hurting your gun with BP, you just can't do it. The only thing you could do is leave an air gap and possibly ring a chamber, but that is the subject of another story.

[smokeywolf]

Good advice from everybody! I had trouble some time back, sizing 30-06 cases. cleaned my dies real well with brake cleaner, made sure the cases were clean and free of walnut shell or corn cob particulate, and bought a tin of Imperial sizing wax. Problem solved! Also, a heftier press is an eventual necessity. I use a Hollywood Sr. single stage.

smokeywolf

[SharpsShooter]

Use the 3 in 1 oil for squeaky hinges. Get yourself a tin of Imperial sizing wax and you will be set to go. I do a fair amount of case forming which usually requires a lot of pressure and a good lube. 95% of the time if you have a sizing issue, it is due to poor or improper lube. I have sized literally thousands of 45-70's on a single stage RCBS Jr. I bought back in 1983.

SS

['74 sharps]

I would never try to resize a case fired with bp without cleaning the case first. I use a decapping die that does not resize, wet tumble, and proceed; however, I do not resize my cases for either of my Sharps.

[Tatume]

Although I use Imperial Sizing Wax for my 6mmPPC, I prefer Lee sizing lube for everything else.

[mdevlin53]

If you read the reviews about Imperial Sizing Wax at midway you would think there is no other product that comes close. I will check out the Lee product as well and add one of them to my next order. Now i just need to figure out what to use the wortless spray lube for.

[David2011]

mdevlin53,

Are you following the instructions on the spray lube exactly per the manufacturer? Many of them require a wait time for the solvent to evaporate. If you don't wait, the lubricant isn't doing its job. If you're following the instructions and it still doesnt' work well, change products. Like bigted said, though, you have to start with fairly clean cartridges. BP residue is a high friction coating.

I use Dillon when sizing lots of cartridges and Imperial when only sizing a few. Dillon is faster but you have to wait for the alcohol to evaporate before sizing lest you risk getting a case stuck. (Don't ask.) Imperial is the best and much cleaner but not suitable for large volumes unless you have a lot of spare time. Small volume: 100 or fewer. Large volume: I just resized 3,000 5.56 NATO cases.

David

[Tatume]

I tried the Lyman spray sizing lube and stuck a case. Lyman sent me another can, and I stuck another case. I followed the instructions. I have no use for the product anymore.

Sizing lubes should be removed before firing, and Lee is the easiest to wipe off, in my experience. The reason I use Imperial on my 6mmPPC is that the film can be very, very thin, thereby having less effect on the dimensions of the case. In a gun that will shoot 100-yard, five-shot groups of 0.010" CTC, it can make a difference. In other guns it will not.

That said, you can't go wrong with Imperial. Lee is just easier, in my opinion.

Take care, Tom

[drcook]

For extreme sizing/case forming, I just started using a mixture of anhydrous lanolin and castor oil. I formed the cartridge on the far left, in fact I formed a couple of these and the lanolin/castor oil has done the best so far (picture below).

as far as cleaning cases, a bath in rubbing alchohol will get them clean

all the other cases that I shoot (110's,90', 100's 38-55's) all are sized using RCBS water soluble lube and a lube pad. once I put the lube on the pad, I will roll 4 or 5 at a time on it

the 1st (on the left) is a 42-90 formed from 45-100 brass,
the 2nd (from the left) is a 40-82 Crossno, formed from 45-90 brass
the 6th from left is a 38-70, formed from 405 winchester brass

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/375315190.jpg

[TXGunNut]

TXGunNut
That is what i ended up doing it is just strange that with two different dies i still end up having to de-prime using a manual de-primer from an old lee classic. but maybe the problem is really a non-issue anyway.

I use a universal decapper on all my BP cartridges, then I wash the cases in hot water and dish soap. After drying in the oven @ 250 for 20-30 minutes I clean in walnut media w/ Hornady One Shot brass polish. Then I use Hornady One case lube-as per label instructions IF they need sizing.
And yes, we all need a tin of Imperial on our benches. Most folks still on their first tin so no idea how they're still in business.

[mdevlin53]

Here is another question that may be related to this issue or maybe its a completly different issue. After i successfully sized all my cases i threw them in the tumbler for a final cleaning and today when i took them out i noticed a bur on one. closer examination showed it was cracked about an inch long running from the case mouth to an inch of the base. I always check each case and i found about 6 more with what looked like laminations and one with a small crack about a quarter inch long about a half inch from the case mouth. These are all longwise cracks and not circumfrential. All of the cases were from a box of Factory ammo with a-merc on the head stamp. the cases are twice fired. once factory loaded with 405 gr boolits and once with 500 gr behind 26gns of 4759. No issues with any of the starline. Opinions, thoughts

[mold maker]

A merc brass is good scrap brass. I don't reload any of it.

[mdevlin53]

I think that you are right about that mold maker. I think i will but the rest in the scrap bin and see if my recycle yard will take them. Better safe than damaged. I have plenty of starline and remington why take a chance.

[smkummer]

Most of the time a pre-mature case split is caused by over flaring the case mouth. This overworking will cause neck splits fast. Like another poster on this post, I only slightly resize my brass that goes back into the same gun it was fired. Very little stress on the case. My gun is the repro sringfield trapdoor officers model, Lyman cast bullets and a trapdoor load of unique.

[mdevlin53]

the cases have only been flared once and some of the splits are a half inch away from the mouth. i just flare it enough to slighly start the bullet. I think that this brass is just plain scrap. All of the cases seem to have faint lines like laminations in the metal.

[John Boy]

The majority of the commercial case lube sprays is lanolin in alcohol and expensive and usually reforming cases doesn't make for an enjoyable time.

May I recommend - Bag Balm

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p-3864-61903.jpg

* About 7 bucks at the drug store
* Petrolatum and lanolin base
Petrolatum ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_jelly
If I can reform 348's into 45-75's with ease, using for resizing is a piece of cake

[Hiwall55]

WOW I use bag balm in the winter for my hands, they get cracked from the cold River water, its so sticky it wont come off, can't wait to try it for resizing

[drcook]

Also you guys shooting black powder that don't have one, invest in a Thumbler's Tumbler and some ceramic (or stainless steel) media. After a couple hours in the tumbler, your brass will look as new and be clean inside and out.

[mdevlin53]

Can you use ceramic or stainless media in a lyman tumbler or does it take a special bowl.

[Hiwall55]

I've been using ceramic for 4 years in my Hornady tumbler

[Ed in North Texas]

Can you use ceramic or stainless media in a lyman tumbler or does it take a special bowl.

The stainless wet wash system requires a rotating drum tumbler and doesn't work with a vibrating tumbler (according to the supplier). With the price of the stainless pins ($45.00/5 lbs plus shipping), unless you are really flush you probably don't want to experiment with a vibrating tumbler when the supplier says it won't work.

I decap with a decapping die and clean before sizing. I bought 2 tins of Imperial wax years ago, still barely touched the first. I bought Lee spray on, ran out the first bottle, replaced with Midway spray on. I've sized .223 to .375 H&H (not counting straight cases, pistol and rifle) with the spray on with no problems. Put 60 cases in the plastic case tray, a few sprays and wait a minute. Quick and easy. The Imperial I use for heavy duty jobs like case forming.

Bag Balm does work, but the Imperial is about the same price as Bag Balm (or was when I bought mine) and lasts lots longer because it is only used for reloading, not cuts, scrapes, chapped hands, etc. :mrgreen:

Ed

[drcook]

I should have explained a little more. A Thumbler's Tumbler is actually a rock polishing tumbler. With the ceramic media, I also use water and a cleaning/low foaming soap(?) cleaning/polishing liquid. When I first got into this I bought a vibratory cleaner. Tried it. It now sits in the box. I probably should sell it.

[mdevlin53]

Well one thing is i figured out what to do with the a merc brass, I drilled out the primer holes so it can never be loaded and then because it is the correct size i am now using it to make my reference cases for all my different bullet types.

[brady1013ax]

I use a Lyman neck size die and size the case approximately 3/4 inch, then expand the case mouth to accept the bullet after I charge the case. My seater die simply pushes the bullet in and uses the resized portion to create neck tension but does not actually close the case mouth. This creates a center loading position when I put the cartridge in the chamber and has produced some great groups. Still working up the load details but would highly recommend fire forming the brass then just neck sizing the brass in the future.
:lovebooli