M91 Russian

[Jack Stanley]

I found an old Russian rifle the other day , in my limited experience of researching this sort of thing . It appears to be an Imperial Tula made in 1894 and with the SA stamp on the left rear of the barrel shank , I'd say it did a hitch for the army of Finland before it got liberated . I don't see an import stamp anywhere on the outside and I can't imagine anyone pulling one apart to stamp under the wood . I hasn't been converted to a 91/30 so I'm guessing it has Dragoon? sights , sort of a stair step affair on on the rear and it's supposed to have spring loaded buttons to hold the sight in place ( I need one of those buttons and spring if ya have one ) The front is a flat topped blade and thick enough that I can see it with these old eyes .

The muzzle is counter-bored , barrel does have rifling left and is rounded a bit and it slugs around .315" . Someone took the time to clean the wood up and I don't see any cartouches on that . The dings have been filled with who knows what and the bolt doesn't match the reciever .

Gee........ I hope I look that good when I'm a hundred and eighteen years old [smilie=s:

Jack

[odfairfaxsub]

i wish i could find one like that. i got a finnish m91.

[zomby woof]

I bought two 1891 Nagants from Century years ago for $19 a piece. One was really nice!!.

[sqlbullet]

I have four Nags in the safe, all WWII mfg. They are fabulous guns. Not quite as rich in history as yours.

All of mine slugs .312-.313". Haven't fed them any lead yet, but soon.

[Mooseman]

Look very closely behind the front sight along the bottom of the barrel under the cleaning rod for an import stamp. That was a favored spot in the 60's and 70's for the importers to stamp it. The SA stamp is a Finnish Army acceptance stamp. Some were never re-barreled by the Finns after they were captured , they were just used as is. Some may have Civil Guard numbers lined out after they were incorporated into the Finnish Army. Barrel length, Overall Length, etc. determine if it is an M91 or Dragoon/Ex-dragoon rifle.If it was counterbored and the bolt doesnt match then it was re-arsenaled at some point.
I collect Mosins and especially the Finn Variations as they are the best in My Opinion.

Rich

[Jack Stanley]

I didn't think to look near the front sight , I'll have to do that . I remember the "blue sky" Garands had a stamp near the front sight now that you mention it .

I did my snooping on 7.62X54R.net to learn what I have so far . Correct me if I'm wrong , civil guard numbers would be on left barrel shank ? This one doesn't have numbers lined out anywhere ( unless you count the rear sight numbers ) . I just has the SA on the left rear barrel shank . Wouldn't the dragoon and the M91 of the period use the the same slider and buttons ? Perhaps I should measure the barrel and see what it is .

I went back and did a little more digging 7.62x54R.net and it appears this one is a Konovalov sight that has had the Arshin measurement on the left lined out and meters stamped on the right . Also I looked closely near the front sight and did not see any import stamp there either . Barrel length is thirty and a half inches long , muzzle to reciever .

I'd like to find a round slider button and spring if I could but , I suppose for the little I may actually shoot this it will be fine .

Jack

[Mooseman]

Sounds like an M91 with about 1 inch of the barrel trimmed off from the original 31.5 inch length, unless you didnt measure to the rear face of the barrel, which makes it 31.5 inches and correct for an M91.
The Civil Guard numbers on my rifles are on the right side of the barrel shank and also stamped into the bolt.
Here is the Finn Variation link...http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM91F.htm.
If yours still has the Russian Barrel and russian stampings, it was used as is after capture by the Finns, and was not re-barreled .
Some M/N rifles that were imported prior to 1968 may not have an import stamp or they could have been brought back after WW2 by a soldier.
A sight or parts should not be hard to find with all the guys removing them for scope mounts that fit the sight base.

Rich

[Griz44mag]

I have 14 Mosins now, an almost complete WWII collection, plus I found a Westinghouse made 1915-17 rifle a few years ago. In addition, I have one of the American made Remington versions that was sporterized from the surplus WWI batch that Russia defaulted on. They are all fun to shoot, affordable to collect, and pretty decent shooters on top of all that. There is still a good supply of surplus '60 to '90 manufactured ammunition at good prices, that makes shooting them cheap and fun.

[Jack Stanley]

You are correct , I only measured to the reciever not the rear of the barrel face . I'll check out that link you gave , I'm having a bit of fun looking into the history of this old rifle and the guidence you fellas provide is of great help in understanding the history invloved .

A member here has a sight , right now he's helping me determine if it's the part I need .

Thanks again for all the help you guys have been and continue to be .

Jack

[Dutchman]

The cleaning rod for the m/1891 Mosin-Nagant is 29" long. I've made about 10 reproductions in the last couple months.

You can see part of the import mark on the underside of the barrel. That's pretty typical of post-1986 import marks.

http://images51.fotki.com/v278/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF3631gb-vi.jpg

I have 2 m/1891 Mosins. This one below is a Finn m/1891 with a *new* B-marked barrel dated 1942. While the barrel bands are cut for handguard tabs it doesn't appear that this particular rifle had a handguard from the last rebuild. It has a much more slim and sleek feeling. It shoots extremely well. The other is a 1915 "Peter the Great" Russian m/1891.

I have a slight unnatural attraction to Mosin-Nagant rifles. Slight.

http://images112.fotki.com/v494/photos/2/28344/157842/yr31-vi.jpg

[nwellons]

The sight button could be hard to find since 99% of the rear sights out there are for the 91/30 and later Mosins.

You might e-mail Rick and tell him you need a M-91 rear sight button and see if he can help. He has an amazing amount of Mosin parts but it is still hit and miss on rarer items.

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/reichoutfitters/index.html

[Jack Stanley]

Dutchman , when I first saw this rifle I thought someone had cobbled together some bands for it . When I got to doing a little research I learned that the bands are correct for this one , they look like the ones in the picture you posted .

I must admit though , your rifle is in much better condition than this one . I'll be happy to get the sight fixed and maybe shoot a few groups with it . I't going to take bullets bigger than my "shooter" so it probably won't get used a lot .

Jack

[Dutchman]

Barrel bands are a study unto themselves with Mosin-Nagant rifles. These on this rifle are of the original m/1891 style that were cut on the inside to hold the tabs on the later handguards. Originally the m/1891 did not have a handguard.

The stock on this rifle is the original one piece Russian m/1891 stock. That seems a little harder to find as most (seems like) Finn rifles have spliced stocks of mixed vintage. I bought this rifle in person from another collector so I got to see it and handle it first. The barrel is/was new/unfired sharp & shiny as can be. The B-marked barrels were made in Belgium. Outstanding quality barrels. On a good day this ol boy will put 5 rds of 311299 into one hole @ 50 yards. (12 grs Unique).

Slug the bore before you do anything further. Groove diameter varies greatly from .308" to .314" depending on where the barrel was made.

http://images42.fotki.com/v663/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF6693x-vi.jpg

Between me and my son-in-law we have about 15 Mosin-Nagant rifles under the same roof.

http://images59.fotki.com/v111/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF6689x-vi.jpg

http://images29.fotki.com/v1007/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF6694x-vi.jpg

[Jack Stanley]

Compared to what I have in front of me , yours is one very handsome rifle . I went and looked at the bands again and they look like they have small notches near the wood line . Seems hard to believe a handguard would fit there but I've never had one with this type band and a handguard . All in all it is awful neat though .

Now that you mention spliced stocks , this one does not have a splice either and I have seen M39 stocks with the splice . The stock has a lot of old repairs and maybe new ones too . How well ( or not ) it will shoot remains to be seen . I put a slug into the throat and it's .315" or so but I didn't send a slug the length of the barrel . I have some ammo loaded with a .314" bullet and light charge of 2400 might try a couple and see how it does when I get the sight fixed . Plan "B" is my next larger bullet , a LBT 215 that casts at .319 with a .305" nose . I bet I could size that down to fit if the chamber is large enough to take the loaded round .

Jack

[nwellons]

The small notches in the barrel band take the small metal tabs that the M91 handguard uses. You have to look close but almost all have the cut-outs since the Russians added the handguard in 1894 and around 1908 retro fitted the older Mosins with handguards.