577/450 Martini Henry Case Problem

[mtnman31]

I fired my MkIV Martini-Henry for the first time today. The rifle is a IMA rifle with a pristine barrel and chamber. First shot went off and clocked 1200fps. Second shot clocked 1010fps and the case separated. I am pretty sure I know what happened and need a few of you to chime in and tell me what I did wrong then roast me for doing something dumb.

Top round is loaded cartridge.
Middle is first round fired.
Bottom is second shot fired. As you can see, the neck and a good portion of the shoulder ended up in the barrel. The brass is a nice representation of the rifling:shock:

The load was 85gr of FFg, and 20 gr of Cream of Wheat under the RCBS 468-485 FN, all stuffed into converted MagTech 24ga shot shells. Let me know what you think.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Martini_Henry_Cases.JPG

I'd like to be able to throw out a disclaimer or excuse as to why I screwed this load up, but nothing creative comes to mind.

So, what I think happened is that the COW was below the shoulder and when I fired, the COW became a plug that ripped the case apart. Fortunately, since this was the first time loading for this, I only loaded five rounds. The converted shot shells have fairly thin walls and even 85grains of FFg leaves a ton of space in the brass.
COW was not the answer and I know better but I guess I just didn't give my load a sanity check.

Maybe one of these days when I have a few hundred extra dollars lying around I'll get a box of 20 Bertram cases. If someone has some 577/450 Bertram cases, I could trade a box of new .43 Spanish Bertram cases...

[elk hunter]

Never had that happen, but I don't load 577-450.

Your explanation sounds possible. I use COW to straighten bottle-neck cases by fire forming and have had some split when I didn't anneal them first, but never had one come completely apart.

[montana_charlie]

martinibelgian shoots that cartridge in competition around Europe.

You may want to search out and read some of his posts (or PM the man), but I'm pretty sure he routinely fires black powder charges that do not totally fill the case ... and I am certain he uses no fillers.

CM

[herbert buckland]

I think Murfys law played a big part in this.I know COW is not the best filler for this cartridge(kapock is recomendes to be very good for botle neck cartridges,I use brecfast oats),but I have seen many rounds fire formed with the exact same load as you used with no trouble,have you fired the other 4 yet.It may pay to measure were the sholder starts in a fire formed case and adjust your forming die to suit,at least this would give more suport on the first fireing

[.22-10-45]

Hello, mtnman31. Your right on about that cow becoming plug..under presssure it becomes nearly solid..last year, I was shooting a .25-25 Stevens....this is a long straight case. I was using slightly reduced loads of Swiss 3FG. To fill extra space I used cow..had case seperation..the others that didn't break were stretched 1/16"! I tried Puff-Lon, with good results..but it's messy (don't sneeze!)

[405]

mtnman31,
I think you answered your own question. It is well known that COW and similar type fillers will do as you described in BP rounds that have the bottleneck like the 577/450. I use various solid wads (not low density wads) in all manner of BP carts including those with bottlenecks. I use cork, felt and hard fiber. BUT, I do not use material like COW in bottlenecks and for certain do not put any of the dense BP type wads below the neck. COW does act like a hard, high density wad when loaded and compressed by igniting powder. The Martini shooter mentioned earlier does shoot BP with airspace I think and this very subject about this particular cartridge has come up many times on this forum. You can take the advice of using airspace to reduce BP loads if you like. I will not do it. Just my opinion.

[plourbag]

mtnman, I suggest you post your question on Shooting.com.au it is an Aussie site and a lot of us shoot Martini 577/450s. A couple of my mates use that site and may be able to help.

[enfield]

yup I think you could be right. I assume the cases have been well annealed. mine get annealed about 5 times through the reforming process. I have mostly used the 50/50 COW & BP mix to fill up the last 20+ grains into the neck but I did try loading a column of BP up the center of the case with COW around the wall of the case ( used a straw to make the BP center column ) it was failure as the COW still formed a solid mass but it came out the barrel in chunks & didn't brake anything. I have also stuffed the fluffy hair from my dog on top of the main charge of BP with no Ill affects. ( well maybe it smells a bit :D )

[sharps4590]

I worked with this cartridge and rifle 15 or so years ago in working up a load for a friend. I used corn meal for filler....which should act about like COW. I did not experience your problem but I do believe you're right about it turning into an "almost solid". If doing so today I would not use either one. For loose fillers these days I used Grex or packing foam. I particularly like the packing foam but am becoming a bit trepiditious about its use.

The rifle isn't a double but one might benefit from Grahme Wrights book, "Shooting the British Double Rifle". He and his friends in Oz have done lots of work on shooting the big BP cases and have pressure tested many loads at both Kynoch and Birmingham Proof House.

Seems to me plourbag and montana charlie have the best suggestion, there is no substitue for experience.

[martinibelgian]

I do indeed shoot 577-450 with airspace. Why? 2 reasons:
- To load a 577-450 case without airspace would require 100+ grains op powder - that HURTS, certainly in the typical military martini.
- W. W. Greener in his book "The gun and its development" specifically warns against the use of a full case of too fina a powder granulation, and recommends as solution to use partially-loaded cases in order to avoid excessive pressures and bursting barrels.

I do believe that W.W. Greener probably forgot more about BP than we know (after all, several generations of Greeners preceded him) - and if he says it's OK, I do believe him. Up to now, I have shot quite a lot of rounds loaded as such, without any ill effects. Works very well, is pretty accurate. Is it ideal? Probably not as regards accuracy, but good enough. Is it dangerous? If done correctly, IMO no. If after 1000+ rounds in several original rifles, nothing has happened, I don't believe it ever will. I am of the opinion that the use of the improper filler (like CoW below the BN) is much more dangerous than an airspace between powder and bullet (or to put it differently, loose powder under a bullet). You can read a lot of urban myths on the 'net, and IMO this is one of them. Fillers like CoW might work well in straight cases, but in BN cases when loaded below the neck, it's an accident waiting to happen. It would also be pretty hard on the barrel, not to mention the excessive pressures generated by that plug...
Luckily, a Martini is pretty safe as to escaping powder gas, but with other actions...

[sharps4590]

martini, I'll have to agree with you regarding Greener. I have his book, "The Gun and its Development", (I think that's right). I remember the first time I held that huge case in my hand and thought, "surely they didn't load this thing thing full?". I didn't and you're right, it would hurt! Especially in a Martini!!

As I'm ever curious, may I ask what your load is for your 577-450? Frank Barnes in the 7th edition of his book shows two loads, 80 grs. of black and 38 grs. of IMR 4198. The black load under a 500 gr. bullet and the smokeless under a 400 gr. bullet.

[Hednign]

I have had good luck using COW in the 577-450. BUT I mix it with BP. Actually 2/3 BP and 1/3 COW, 85 grs Swiss no 4 under it. I think 50-50 would be just as good. Almost any kind of filler bellow the neck would hurt your brass. A friend of mine use powder all the way up to the neck and then a big fat grease wad. Works well too.

I have heard that you can get lathe made brass that are straight on the inside. I don`t know who the manufacturer are though.

[martinibelgian]

Sharps4590,

I mostly use the LoC load of 85grs of Swiss Fg (no.5), sometimes going upt to 90, usually behind a 530gr .468 bullet. Shoots pretty well in all of my 577-450's (about 5 - I think).
Depending on the weather, I use a grease cookie/lubed felt wad or not, and the bullet might be either PP or GG (the PP of course always requires the grease cookie or lubed felt wad).
The bullet was designed with a long shank, in order to take up as much room as possible, both in the case as outside - this also helps reduce case capacity.

1 thing though - a PP bullet required a very good to excellent, smooth bore - otherwise you'll only get it to shoot well with wiping between shots.

I use both modern drawn brass as well as converted CBC (Magtech), which indeed has the issue of even more case capacity.
It being a BN case means it can efficiently use slower powders like Fg - which also have the added advantage of reducing felt recoil.

All my shooting usually is prone, with sling, unsupported - a military martini wasn't designed to be shot benched.

[Chicken Thief]

I have read about active filler on http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/
Filler made from 50-50 to 75-25 COW to BP ratio.
The burning powder will eleminate the caking thing once and for all.

[martinibelgian]

That active filler - sorry, it doesn't work as advertised: The CoW will NOT burn in the barrel, and tends to separate out from the powder (even a card wad won't burn, it won't even have scorch marks). For me, it most certainly is not the solution some claim. Accuracy is done by eliminating variable, and fillers (mixed or not) are a variable added, sometimes very difficult to control. Usually, simpler is better IMO.

[drhall762]

I have a dimensioned diagram of the lathe turned 70 grain capacity cases. I have not made any yet but have made several based on the same idea for some 7.62 NATO special purpose ammo.

[herbert buckland]

The original Military 577-450 carbine load used cotton wool as a filler,I do nt like this as there is a snow storm every time you fire it,kapock is a natural filler that will not form a plug in the case and is cleaner.I have used rolled oats for over 20 years and have never had any trouble and have won quite a few matches using it as a filler,though I will be changing to kapock

[Beekeeper]

Herbert, Martinibelgen,
I have heard of cotton and wool being used as a filler, mostly just to take up the space and keep the powder against the primer.
Could dacron be used succesfully?
I use it in a lot of smokeless loads and it works quite well.
It is very similar to cotton.


beekeeper

[EDG]

A number of BPCR shooters report that they have case neck shoot offs at the location of the cannelure ring.
Some of these result in the case neck going down range with the bullet.
I think that even compressed black powder can grab the case and pull the case mouth off. Surely COW can.
I thought of a case design to deal with this in the very large capacity cases but I think the market is too small to mess with.

[singleshotman]

While i do not own a martini henry i have plans on how to load for it.i have a advantage, i own an old but still good Lathe. my father used to make Lathe turned cases from Naval rolled brass,but that's a big job.I throught i'd make some brass inserts,tapered to match the 24ga Brass Shells, and straight on the inside.Crimp them below the bottleneck and they would never go anywhere unless the cases split.i'd use a 7/16" drill, so the case would be no more eighty grains of fG or so when full.Also since it would be a straight case on the inside you could compress the powder if neccessary. I think this would work.When the cases break, i'd remove the insert and keep it for another case.

[Ed in North Texas]

That active filler - sorry, it doesn't work as advertised: The CoW will NOT burn in the barrel, and tends to separate out from the powder (even a card wad won't burn, it won't even have scorch marks). For me, it most certainly is not the solution some claim. Accuracy is done by eliminating variable, and fillers (mixed or not) are a variable added, sometimes very difficult to control. Usually, simpler is better IMO.

I certainly will try your method, KISS almost always works better. And I don't think I'd use anything less than 1F granulation in these huge cases (.577 and .577-450 are my largest cases and dwarf my .50-70 in capacity).

I could be mistaken, but I believe that those who I consider knowledgeable (e.g. Douglas - Double D) have never claimed the COW was burned. My understanding is that the BP mixed with the COW prevents the COW from clumping and results in the COW being ejected from the cartridge case as granules.

Ed

[martinibelgian]

No, Douglas wouldn't claim that, he knows better - that claim was made by others. FWIW, DD did say he had issues with it separating out, and the near impossiibility of getting a uniform mix of powder and CoW.
Also, CoW is pretty hard, and I don't exactly consider it advisable to shoot through a soft steel barrel under pressure, where it could act as an abrasive. I might be overly cautious, but ...
Kapok would be a good filler - note I said filler, not wad. But again, with a rough bore, you'll bemoan the fact that you even tried it... Lots of cleaning to get the resultant mess out of the bore.
Still, that military martini will shoot with surprising accuracy if you get it right - actually much better than the sights will allow you to. But it does take a lot of effort to get there. Howewer, the end result is more than worth the trouble. And even those sights aren't as bad as they seem at 1st glance...

[bob208]

a trick i did 30 year ago was to trun out al. cases and bore them out to take a .45-70 case. on firing the brass case fromed out the the al. case and was easy to reload using .45-70 data.

[drhall762]

Just got my N.D.F.S. brass today. It is turned brass and about 70gr. capacity. Very nice looking, will have to see how it shoots.

[Muzzlehatch]

Last year I used COTW data and loaded 38 grs. of IMR 4198 under a 405 LRN wrapped with masking tape to .470 and Puff-Lon to the top of the case in my MK 4. Shot 12-14" high at 100 yds. No problems with extraction. Some say that 38 grs. is taking a big risk, so next time I'll use 34-36.

[herbert buckland]

Herbert, Martinibelgen,
I have heard of cotton and wool being used as a filler, mostly just to take up the space and keep the powder against the primer.
Could dacron be used succesfully?
I use it in a lot of smokeless loads and it works quite well.
It is very similar to cotton.


beekeeperI have never used it but have been told it does not work well with BP

[The Double D]

My ears are burning and my BS alarm is going off.

CoW does not burn, it goes out the barrel. It also does not stay mixed, it separates out.


Straight from the loading bench to range, handled gently, the powder stays together and does shot well. Drive a few miles and across bumpy road, or move the ammo box a few times before shooting and the CoW and powder will separate. Or fly you ammo to South Africa and back and it will separate

As to the shoulder separating, you guys have covered one thing pretty good and could be right, the granulated solid may have ripped the neck off. Puffalon will stretch necks and may do this also.

The best evidence that CoW did this is the fact the neck is swaged to the shape of the rifling. It took a lot of force to do that.

Use foam or fiber filler.

There is one other thing I see.





http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Martini_Henry_Cases.JPG

.

It appears the brass was not new unfired. It appears based on top round to have been fired before and reloaded.

You should not switch fired brass from one rifle to another. That is a standard warning for modern rifles with standardized chambers. It should be a rule in ther Martini with their non standard chambers.

The only part of a Martini chamber that is close to standard is the head area. The ogee shoulder can be just about any length and any radius. If that brass was fired in a chamber that was a bit longish and then full length resized and the shoulder bumped that can harden that junction and make it brittle.

Other concerns even if it was new unfired brass is annealling. Was this brass annealled after forming and before loading.

All these thing along with solid filler below the neck could lead to the separation.

Reference the loose powder and air space myth. If you really want understand the phenomena get Charles Dell's "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" and Greame Wrights "Shooting the British Double Rifle" for the straight educated description.

Done right there is no hazard from shooting with an airspace.

[mtnman31]

There is one other thing I see.

It appears the brass was not new unfired. It appears based on top round to have been fired before and reloaded.



The brass had not been fired. I annealed before and after case forming. I used the Lee die set to form my cases.
A visual of the fired case doesn't show any major differences between the unfired and fired case. I will have to put it to the micrometer and digital headspace gauge to compare the fired vs unfired case.

[The Double D]

The brass had not been fired. I annealed before and after case forming. I used the Lee die set to form my cases.
A visual of the fired case doesn't show any major differences between the unfired and fired case. I will have to put it to the micrometer and digital headspace gauge to compare the fired vs unfired case.

From its discoloration looks previously fired. The bright ring on the shoulder also is indicative of shoulder bump. It also is indicative box rub.

Do a comparision of shoulders and you will see the ogee shoulder.

By the way if you built those cases using just the Lee Dies you did a bunch of work and did a darn good job. That would also explain the shoulder bump. Can't be helped.

By the way when do you get back to MT. I am planning on putting on a Victorian rifleman Provincial Shoot in Cut Bank 2014.

[Beekeeper]

Double D,
If I may ask what type of foam and or fiberfill?
Would you please elaborate!
Have been using cotton as Norm Sutton recommended but am always looking for something better!

Beekeeper

[Ed in North Texas]

My ears are burning and my BS alarm is going off.

CoW does not burn, it goes out the barrel. It also does not stay mixed, it separates out. snip

Douglas,

Except for the separating (haven't taken mine on any trips past a short walk down the pasture yet), that is what I thought I wrote. Not sure why your BS alarm was going off, but I'd appreciate knowing what I erroneously wrote (other than the separation issue I didn't know about or address).

Ed

[The Double D]

Douglas,

Except for the separating (haven't taken mine on any trips past a short walk down the pasture yet), that is what I thought I wrote. Not sure why your BS alarm was going off, but I'd appreciate knowing what I erroneously wrote (other than the separation issue I didn't know about or address).

Ed




Sorry, I should not have quoted you there. I think I meant to just say my ears are burning----like when people are talking about you when you walk in a room.

I think I quoted with that one line of thought and got carried away emphasizing my point about CoW not burning.

I have edited my post to remove the quote. My apologies.

The comment about BS alarm refers to theme of this thread and the use of 50/50 CoW.

Apologies to all.

[The Double D]

Double D,
If I may ask what type of foam and or fiberfill?
Would you please elaborate!
Have been using cotton as Norm Sutton recommended but am always looking for something better!

Beekeeper

Closed cell foam like that used in foam ear plugs. Kynoch uses it in their loaded ammunition and sells the foam in precut sizes for various calibers.


It also is the type foam found as padding in many gun cases. Look for it in upholstery shops. Use a wad punch to cut.

Cotton, Dacron, Sheeps wool or kapok also all work.

I believe you must have consistency in loading and I like too weigh everything I put in a case. I have a large quantity of kapok and that is why I use it. I have used cotton and dacron.

On a hot dry day, cotton will burn when fired, but it burns after it leaves the barrel-range officers get so testy when you start small grass fires on their range.

A few months back I got in a long discussion here on this board about using a tuft of dacron. I contend you must measure the filler and I weigh each tuft of kapok that goes in my Martini-current practice 3 grains. The other fellow maintained weighing was unnecessary all you needed was tuft and you were good to go.

Well a tuft is such a imprecise quantity and there is a real concern that too small amount will be used and the purpose of the filler not be met.

As the discussion went on the other gentlemen stated again that he was opening the dacron batting and cutting the material into square "tufts". He was cutting them to a specific size and not weighing. Well duh on both of us.

He was using a specific size tuft and not just some random tuft, and it was of sufficient volume to do the job. He was also measuring and using a specific and consistent quantity-volume.

We were both doing the same thing, just different; he volume, me weight.

The correct method is to be consistent.

[Boz330]

Beekeeper, I'll send you a lifetime supply of Kapok.

Douglas is that the Kapok I sent you that you are working on. I keep giving it away and the original box it came in doesn't seem to get any emptier. The top closes a little easier though.

BTW Kapok doesn't burn like the cotton balls.

Bob

[The Double D]

Yes, Bob, that is the same kapok. I am running low, I have perhaps enough left only for another 15 or 20 years.

[Ed in North Texas]

Beekeeper, I'll send you a lifetime supply of Kapok.

Douglas is that the Kapok I sent you that you are working on. I keep giving it away and the original box it came in doesn't seem to get any emptier. The top closes a little easier though.

BTW Kapok doesn't burn like the cotton balls.

Bob

According to transportation/shipping information, kapok is even more combustible than cotton. In bales which break open it has been known to spontaneously combust. I don't know what treatment might be applied to fiber used in products to reduce the flammability (inflammability for those of us old enough to remember when things were inflammable).

Ed

[The Double D]

Ed you want to share that source of transport info on Kapok. I am well aware that iti s combustible. Combustible just means it will burn.

Spontaneous combustion in kapok, that is new on on me.

Now instead of going to bed, I am gong to be sitting here on the internet doing research.

Whew, that didn't take long. Here's what I found:

http://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/ware/fasern/kapok/kapok.htm

RF Self-heating / Spontaneous combustion

Kapok is assigned to Class 4.1 of the IMDG Code (Flammable solids). However, its specific characteristics and negative external influences (see below) may cause it to behave like a substance from Class 4.2 (Substances liable to spontaneous combustion) of the IMDG Code or ADR.

Its high cellulose content makes kapok particularly liable to catch fire through external ignition. Kapok fibers ignite even more readily than cotton. Therefore, protection from sparks, fire, naked lights and lit cigarettes must always be provided. Smoking is absolutely prohibited. Sparks may arise from bursting or chafing of the steel straps (and also as a result of inadequate cargo securing in the hold or container) and cause a cargo fire. In accordance with the IMDG Code, ventilation openings leading into the hold should be provided with spark-proof wire cloth.

Spontaneous combustion may occur as a result of exposure to moisture, animal and vegetable fats/oils, oil-bearing seeds/fruits, copra and raw wool. As a result of the very well developed oxygen-rich lumen of the kapok fiber and the oxygen supply contained in the capillary cavity system, smoldering fires inside the bales often last for weeks.

Kapok generally combusts very slowly and flamelessly. Once fire is well established in kapok bales, they burst open due to the intensity of the heat and burning kapok may then be scattered over other bales.

Fire-fighting is best performed using CO2 or foam. It is very difficult to extinguish a fire because of the excess of oxygen in the kapok fiber, which maintains the fire from the inside. When fighting a fire, do not break the steel straps or open the bales, since relieving the compression increases the oxygen supply and makes it impossible to fight the fire effectively.

Water must not be used for fire-fighting, since the swelling capacity of the kapok fibers may cause damage to the hold or container walls.


I knew it was combustible, and have seen it burn. In may experience cotton burns easier. Spontaneous combustion requires a contamination by another material to occur.

That is an interesting read. Thanks for making me look.

Now I can go to bed.

[Boz330]

When shot the times I have used it, the only thing occurring was a snow storm of kapok in the air, never saw any sort of flame from use with either BP or smokeless. Considering it carries it's own oxygen supply it would seem to be not just flammable but almost explosive.
BTW I have never gotten very good groups when using it.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed you want to share that source of transport info on Kapok. I am well aware that iti s combustible. Combustible just means it will burn.

Spontaneous combustion in kapok, that is new on on me.

Now instead of going to bed, I am gong to be sitting here on the internet doing research.

Whew, that didn't take long. Here's what I found:

http://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/ware/fasern/kapok/kapok.htm

snip

That is an interesting read. Thanks for making me look.

Now I can go to bed.

You're welcome. That reference is what I came across also. Interesting that it doesn't tend to burn (when used as a case filler) as readily as cotton.

Ed

[Newtire]

While i do not own a martini henry i have plans on how to load for it.i have a advantage, i own an old but still good Lathe. my father used to make Lathe turned cases from Naval rolled brass,but that's a big job.I throught i'd make some brass inserts,tapered to match the 24ga Brass Shells, and straight on the inside.Crimp them below the bottleneck and they would never go anywhere unless the cases split.i'd use a 7/16" drill, so the case would be no more eighty grains of fG or so when full.Also since it would be a straight case on the inside you could compress the powder if neccessary. I think this would work.When the cases break, i'd remove the insert and keep it for another case.
I would think you'd get a lot of gas blowing back along the sides of the case unless it expands to seal the chamber???

[rescuerandy2]

Good Afternoon. Been shooting a Mark I/II for 4 years and just use 80gr FF with carded wool to fill the airspace. The smell is interesting and I do get a slight snowstorm but no other issues. In fact, this beater of a rifle hits the black at 100 yards with me shooting off the table, trifocals, and a 60 year old pair of hands. My cartridges are 24ga formed metallic shotgun shells and they started splitting after 3.5 years of moderate use and abuse. Keep it simple and enjoy, Randy.

[bigbore52]

If I can add my two bobs worth - been shooting the 577/450 for many decades now and never had a separation.....I would suggest it could be a combination of factors such as have already been described. Either a weakened case, wrong loads or fillers and or a combination thereof...

Can I suggest you try going back to basics with it? By that I mean trying to duplicate or as close as possible the original loads they used as some knowledgeable folk have posted already?

For example, I use Bertram Brass with 90gn of Swiss Fg under a cardboard spacer then felt wads to take up the volume so there's no air gap under the pill..I do not compress the powder and wad merely lightly tamp it down with a wooden shaft to sit them snug ..on top of that I use a lubed 570gn lead pill based loosely on the Postell but at .460 diameter (mould made by CBE) and with a 20:1 (Pb:Sn) brew. There's really no need to harden it with Sn but I add it because I make other loads with the same batch..... .the Postell will work just fine as it is but accuracy may be affected if your bore is not 458 and I can guarantee you it won't be :) ... I will often use a bees wax lube cookie under the pill but as the pill is already lubed it's not that necessary and often I don't bother with that separate lube.....the original load did use it........

I have used a variety of fillers over the years and they all gave me headaches of one sort or another but eventually settled on felt wads as that was what was originally used...and believe it or not, I get the best results from it...........interestingly the felt I use comes from the same company that made it a hundred years ago in the UK - they will do mail order and you can order it in a variety of sheet thicknesses to make up the gap space you need - details are : Hardy and Hanson in West Yorkshire http://www.hardy-hanson.co.uk/felt_strips.htm - worth dropping them a line and asking.....

you need to ensure there is minimal air gap between the powder and the pill........easy enough to work out the thickness of wad you need and then just order that thickness sheet or make it up form different sheets as I do......

I use their felt in most of my BP loads in other calibers and have never had any issues or problems with it.....just make your punches to suit or you can buy them at various sources such as Track of The Wolf and others.... ..when it's all said and done with these old rifles, it behooves a certain feeling to use "original" components wherever possible.......good luck with it and I hope you sort it out quickly....Lee

[toot]

i use a cotton ball over the powder, it weights nearly nothing and takes up the air space in the case. then a grease cookie under the bullet.

[yulzari]

I have tried most fillers in the 577-450 cases over the last few years bar granular fillers as these clump into a hard plug just like the dry sharp sand used to block the open end of shot holes in blasting rock. I finally settled on raw wool, of which I have an infinite supply free, packed in fairly firmly. Then I was led to try foam backer rod. The closed cell foam sold in rolls to take up the gap when installing windows. Available at any hardware emporium. Ideal. Just measure off enough to slightly over fill the gap and cut as many as you need to the same length. Same weight every shot. If you do not crimp your bullet and find that the foam's 'spring' pushed the bullet out a bit further than you wanted? No problem. When chambered the bullet will bottom out in the throat and get pushed back in to the ideal just touching the rifling. The same every time. Whilst I just leave air in service 85 grain charges I can get down to 45 grains for 100 metres with all the space filled up with foam backer rod.

[mzlldr]

I used to use semolina as a filler in some of my bp cartridge loads , but stopped doing so when a fellow shooter at my club told me that he had experienced problems with the semolina " caking " in the cartridge case and adding quite significantly to the rifle's recoil . I never experienced any problems , but decided to stop using it anyway.

[Newtire]

I have tried most fillers in the 577-450 cases over the last few years bar granular fillers as these clump into a hard plug just like the dry sharp sand used to block the open end of shot holes in blasting rock. I finally settled on raw wool, of which I have an infinite supply free, packed in fairly firmly. Then I was led to try foam backer rod. The closed cell foam sold in rolls to take up the gap when installing windows. Available at any hardware emporium. Ideal. Just measure off enough to slightly over fill the gap and cut as many as you need to the same length. Same weight every shot. If you do not crimp your bullet and find that the foam's 'spring' pushed the bullet out a bit further than you wanted? No problem. When chambered the bullet will bottom out in the throat and get pushed back in to the ideal just touching the rifling. The same every time. Whilst I just leave air in service 85 grain charges I can get down to 45 grains for 100 metres with all the space filled up with foam backer rod.
I have heard of the foam backer rod so loaded some up using that but wasn't too sure about trying it out. Once it warms up a bit and I have recovered from getting a new knee, I'm gonna go out & try this gun out.

[john.k]

I havent tried the foam rod yet,but if I can get it here I will.Its recommended by a number of notables in the component supply trade.It may well be the answer to shooting smokeless in these cases.......in regard to cases,I use 24ga CBC,and Ive found that with paper patched bullets cases last indefinitely,as there is little or no neck expansion.......but when I use tightly seated 476 bullets,necks expand out to chamber size,and it appears the cases are under considerable stress.
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[DxieLandMan]

i use a cotton ball over the powder, it weights nearly nothing and takes up the air space in the case. then a grease cookie under the bullet.

This is what I use too. 75 grains of 2FF black powder, a cotton ball and then a grease cookie.

[toot]

I fill up the air space in mine with RICE CRISPIES weigh nothing and do not turn into a solid slug when fired. smells like you are baking cookies!. I have used this method for many years with success.

[bob208]

in George note's book cartage conversions he advises against cow filler in bottleneck cases. he also showed a outer case turned with a .45-70 case inside.then you can have reduced case volume.

[Newtire]

That sounds like a good plan! Also good for emergency rations.

[superc]

That is a fairly common seperation, especially with 'new' Kynoch loads that have sat on a shelf or in a garage somewhere for 70 years before you purchased it. I am not at all sure the filler had a durn thing to do with it. If my Kynoch loads fire without splitting, I anneal them before reloading. I use 85 gr of FF and half a cotton puff as the filler. Every 4 reloads I anneal again.

[john.k]

Season cracking of drawn brass can happen anywhere ,not just cases.My take with Kynoch cases is to pull the bullets and empty them.....then anneal them,without firing....I dont worry about annealing the head either,as the working pressure will be low.I also fill the cases with dry lime,which hopefully will absorb the mercury released by the primers if they go off.If not,its unlikely they ever will.Its worth the trouble to me.because new made cases here cost $7.50 each.When decapping,I wear adequate eye and ear protection,just in case.I then enlarge the twin flashholes enough to take a decapping pin,and there you have new/ish cases.Kynoch cases take 303 Berdan primers ,not the 24ga Berdans used in CBC home market cases.....the difference is .250" vs .254"..Both are RWS numbers.......I believe the correct primer for the Kynoch case is the "Express Rifle Berdan",not quite as deep as a 303 berdan,but if you arent regulating barrels,near enough.

[Newtire]

I havent tried the foam rod yet,but if I can get it here I will.Its recommended by a number of notables in the component supply trade.It may well be the answer to shooting smokeless in these cases.......in regard to cases,I use 24ga CBC,and Ive found that with paper patched bullets cases last indefinitely,as there is little or no neck expansion.......but when I use tightly seated 476 bullets,necks expand out to chamber size,and it appears the cases are under considerable stress.
.

Finally got a chance to try the foam backer rod. Home Depot had it in stock. Used 25 gr.SR 4759 and 3/4" rod to bottom of case neck, then 1/2" rod to within 1/2" of top of case and seated a 475gr. X-ring Services boolit on top of that. Put a light crimp on them to keep the slightly compressed foam from pushing the boolit out. All 25 of them went bang with no ill effects. I was using the X-ring cases formed from 24 gauge brass since am just getting started. His company did alright by me and his products were all very nicely made. Anyhow, the backer rod worked and the bore cleaned out with some CLP that a friend gave me. I got this load out of some Handloader #76 data shot in a Gibbs rifle . As usual, if you suffer any damages using this information, that's on you.

[Tracy]

Uncorned homemade black powder might work well in .577/.450, being less dense than commercial BP. 85 grains would probably fill the case.

[DxieLandMan]

Well, the primer keeps coming out just enough that it takes a few taps on the falling block to break off the primer to where I can unload it. I took it to a local gunsmith and lo and behold, I have a MkII and the falling block was from a Mk IV. Maybe this could be a problem so I ordered a MkII falling block and spring to install in my MH. Hopefully this will take care of the issue. I hope it will. I will try to install it this week and let everyone know how it works.

[john.k]

While the block being from another rifle is obviously the problem,its too short....or...the reciever is too long.Ive got some commercial made MHs that wont close on a block from an Enfield made rifle,one LSA needed 010 taken from the block,before it would even close too tight...............Incidentally,about headspace.......the Lee Enfield crowd obsess over headspace,but its a fact that military 303 Martinis have a rim recess in the barrel..(smelly doesnt have this) that is .080" deep,so headspace cannot be less than this,and is often +005 to 007 more...A Martini actually sets its own headspace,as the rim recess fills up with crud,and keeps the cartridge pressed against the blockface.

[Newtire]

I have only tried one method and it seems to work so I see no need to switch. This load gives 1060-1080 FPS and gives pretty consistent groups. I have been using 24 grains of SR4759, a 1” (approx.) Foam 3/4” backer rod to fill to the shoulder and another1/2” x 1/2” length of backer rod to fill the neck space to 1/4” from the top of the case. On top of that, I seat a 500 gr. Xring services bullet out to the origin of the rifling. I have been getting 2” groups at 50 yds. Better accuracy than with the Lee 400 gr. bullet.

[toot]

This is what I use too. 75 grains of 2FF black powder, a cotton ball and then a grease cookie.

yes I am also a cotton ball, grease cookie man! and never had a hiccup! 85 GRS, if 2fg. a half of a cotton ball.then push the case neck into a mixture of bees wax and tallow.way to go. jmho.

[elk hunter]

I'm shooting 25 grains of Trailboss behind the Lee HB 45-70 bullet cast soft patched to .473-.474. No filler needed and it shoots as good as I can hold it.

[toot]

I also still use RICE CRISPIES, the boxes that I use have one serving. also.I alternate,between them.