Web site to help ID Lee Enfields?

[H.Callahan]

Is there any compressive web sites out there detailing how to identify a given Enfield?

I've got what I am pretty sure is a No.4 that I got off of a partner that I had back (waaayyy back) when I was an LEO. He gave it to me to pay back a favor that I had done for him. At the time, he told me that he had taken a number of deer with with it (which I believe), so it was in shootable condition when I got it. Appearance wise, it looked like it had been through a war (heh!), but seemed in good shape mechanically. My original intent was to make a display of some WWII military weapons and include this gun. I cleaned it up good and stored it.

Of course, time marches on and plans change and I never did the display. Periodically I would drag it out and check it and make sure it was still doing ok and put it back.

Never really thought of shooting it, but the last couple of times it was out (roughly corresponding with me joining this forum!) I have thought I might try it out with some boolits. Before I get too into it, I would like to ID it first. Like I said, it is a No.4, but I don't see really any other IDing features about it. I have seen references to checking the grip band, but mine is completely blank. I know the bolt has a number 2 on it (and I do know they come in 0-3 in decreasing amount of headspacing). Other than that, I know zero about it. Other than checking headspace, which I gather is a problem (BTW, where can one get or rent Go/NoGo gauges for 303?), is there anything else I should be looking for?

[Ragnarok]

A No.4 rifle or No.5 carbine will have the rear sight at the back of the receiver. So will a P14 rifle.

Any others will be on the barrel.

Do a google search on Lee Enfield rifles and should be numerous sites with pics to help.

[303Guy]

I don't think head spacing on a No.4 is too much of a problem. Battlefield clearance might be a bit of a problem but only if one full length resizes. I think it a good idea to take the first time firing steps to set the head space onto the shoulder then neck size only thereafter. If you are firing low pressure loads then simply lubing the loaded cases will work but it doesn't help to centralize the case. For that the O-ring trick is good.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/001-3.jpg

This one is thicker than needed but it gets harder to find really thin ones.

One could conceivably coat the web area with nail varnish to centralise the case.

[Brithunter]

Head space gauges are easy and cheap google "Oakie headspace gauges"

BTW headspace is not the sure fire killer the web seems to make it out to be. After seeing the result of a .308 Win cartridge being fired in a .308 Norma magnum with no damage to shooter or rifle. The .308 case came out straight no neck left and the bullet hit the target but low.

Rifle was sold as a .308 ........................................ which is was in a way! the scope and mount covered the Norma mag bit until the scope was taken off. On his way home from the auction house he stopped off and brought a couple boxes of .308 Win to try on the range.

Now according the the web with that much excessive head space the rifle should have been destroyed and the shooter and spotter maimed at least ..................................... not so in real life. Was only the fact that the spotter looked down to tell the shooter it was very low that he noticed the case eject that had not neck. He thought case separation at first.

[Multigunner]

Head space gauges are easy and cheap google "Oakie headspace gauges"

BTW headspace is not the sure fire killer the web seems to make it out to be. After seeing the result of a .308 Win cartridge being fired in a .308 Norma magnum with no damage to shooter or rifle. The .308 case came out straight no neck left and the bullet hit the target but low.

Rifle was sold as a .308 ........................................ which is was in a way! the scope and mount covered the Norma mag bit until the scope was taken off. On his way home from the auction house he stopped off and brought a couple boxes of .308 Win to try on the range.

Now according the the web with that much excessive head space the rifle should have been destroyed and the shooter and spotter maimed at least ..................................... not so in real life. Was only the fact that the spotter looked down to tell the shooter it was very low that he noticed the case eject that had not neck. He thought case separation at first.

A .308 cartridge case in a larger diameter .308 magnum chamber could not grip the chamber wall sufficiently to let the primer back out enough to blow, releasing hot gases into the boltface to blow out a firing pin or cause other damage.
Citing this sort of fluke does not make the very real dangers of excessive headspace and/or wallowed out chambers go away.
I've seen the firing of a 7.62 cartridge in a Garand chamber cited in the same way. Milspec 7.62 has heavily staked primers to forestall primer blow outs.

Serious injury or death is rare in cartridge blow outs, because most actions have gas relief ports of some sort, but I've seen enough photos of faces peppered by fragments and burned by gas to wear eye protection when shooting even if I know headspace is good.

Every so often I've seen posts by shooters asking what to do about a bolt face deeply scored by gas from a blown primer. Such damage can make a once fine rifle into a suspect shooter with limited value.

Everyone here reloads, so good headspace and the least stress on fired cases is important to the hobby.

As for flukes
When a fluke like firing a .30-06 cartridge in a rechambered 6.5 Jap rifle is cited as proof that oversize bullets pose no hazards shooters may ignore the fact that its the neck clearance that is most important rather than the bore size itself.
And we have the case reported in Hatcher's Notebook where two boys fired .35 Remington cartridges in a 7.7 Jap rifle. Had you gone by the first two rounds causing no visible damage you might believe that was safe, but on the third shot the receiver exploded sending a fragment into the shooter's brain.

I've seen cartridge cases split lengthwise in chambers only slightly worn oversized, so stories of a case not spliting in a chamber grossly oversized do not tell me that the practice is perfectly safe.

PS
Remember that sporting cartridges very seldom have staked primers. A worn rifle that handles milspec ammunition just fine may not be suitable for use with commercial sporting ammunition.

[H.Callahan]

Still having problems finding a comprehensive site about IDing this puppy. There are lots of forums have tidbits here and there. Has this info not been consolidated anywhere?

Looks like there are several GO/NO GO gauges available. However, from my reading, it sounds like what I want is a FIELD gauge. Does that sound right?

[303Guy]

However, from my reading, it sounds like what I want is a FIELD gauge. Does that sound right?Yes and no. You can get away with a field gauge but the idea is to preserve your brass and for that you need a tight head space. Field gauge clearance is fine for firing a case once only. Too much head space clearance hammers the action which won't break it all that often but will eventually render the action unserviceable.

For a low pressure loading you can get away with a lot more clearance providing the case doesn't grip the chamber walls too tightly. I'm not suggesting you lube your cases but I do to prevent excessive case to chamber wall grip (and I stress excessive grip) so as to reduce locking lug impact stress and eliminate case elongation. Not everyone agrees with my theory so don't just do what I do. I'm happy with what I do but do it wrong and there could be trouble - I don't know. So, simply use the O-ring trick and all should be well. The O-ring holds the case firmly against the bolt face and the locking lugs firmly against the locking lug recesses and fire-forms the case for a perfect fit and tight head spacing on the shoulder.

[Multigunner]

When buying a milsurp rifle expect military spec tolerances. If on the tight side all well and good but if on the long side but still within acceptable military specifications then learn to deal with what you have.
If you want to reload then the tricks such as the O-ring spacer and fire forming will handle most cases of generous headspace. If proper sized O-rings are not available then the older method of a curled ring of monofiliament fishing line should do the trick.

If beyond milspec max headspace then consider a new bolt head or bolt body. Theres nothing wrong with replacing a worn out part, and a new bolt head won't affect the serial numbering of the bolt. A replacement bolt body is best if un numbered rather than to use of a non matching numbered bolt body.

If an older an more collectable rifle such as a long LE or MLM rifle won't pass mil spec gauging and can not be rectified by replacing a part if one can be found, then accept the fact that its a wall hanger and even use of greatly under charged loads is a personal risk and not to be fobbed off on an unsuspecting buyer without warning them that by both Military and Civilian standards the rifle is a non shooter.

I've seen some citing what I consider flukes such as a test rifle using ammunition with heavily constructed milspec cases and staked primers not blowing out when headspace was .03 greater than normal as evidence that one should have no concerns about shooting any rifle that has such ridulously increased headspace. The same rifle might as easily split the cases of nine out of ten available ammunition types including some milspec ammunition.
Also a headspace increase that drastic would indicate severe set back that may be a sign of defective heat treatment, fire damage in the past, or extreme overload conditions.

Warnings on reactivation of DP rifles include description of barreled actions of rifles and machineguns salvaged from a burned out shipwreck being used to assemble DP rifles. Externally these would look fine, but the steel might be soft as butter or brittle as a jelly jar.