what about ?

[white eagle]

using 38 special cases for 357 mag work?
Such as a long or heavy boolit to fit chamber ??:holysheep

[44MAG#1]

Elmer Keith wrote in the mid thirties of using his 173 gr Keith bullet in 38 special cases in the first S&W 357's. there is nothing new about using 38 special cases. Yes you could get even a heavier bullet that is designed to seat way out and use them in 38 special cases.
Again this is nothing new.
Did I miss something?

[bigboredad]

Elmer Keith wrote in the mid thirties of using his 173 gr Keith bullet in 38 special cases in the first S&W 357's. there is nothing new about using 38 special cases. Yes you could get even a heavier bullet that is designed to seat way out and use them in 38 special cases.
Again this is nothing new.
Did I miss something?

the only thing you ,missed is a rifle guy discovering the many joys of the .38 special for the first time. So yeah it is new to him. Not everyone on this forum grew up shooting .38's

[44MAG#1]

He said 38 Specials cases in a 357 Mag. Nothing about 38 Specials in a 38 Special.
I guess I missed something.

[subsonic]

It works. .357 brass might be more accurate on average in a .357. Clean it once in a while or you'll get a ring of fouling in the chambers that will prevent .357s from chambering.

My .357s see about 10:1 .38 to .357 brass, maybe more?

Just don't load .357 level loads in .38 brass... reduce considerably unless you're using something like the 358156 with two crimp grooves and can increase the OAL by crimping in the rear groove. It would still be prudent to keep your loads in .38 brass at a pressure that is safe for any .38 gun they might accidentally get shoved in.

[smoked turkey]

If I recall correctly when Skeeter Skelton was writing and shooting that he did just what was mentioned and that is 357 loading in 38spl cases and kept the inside area equivalent to 357 by seating the boolit out and crimping in the rear groove. I don't necessarily recommend this for obvious reasons as has been stated, but I think it has been done. Whew I don't like even the thought of it though because mixups can occur so easily.

[dmize]

I agree with Subsonic. I shoot a LOT of 38 special CASES loaded to 38 special and +P in my 357.
HOWEVER I dont think you should use a 38 case to shortcut 357 Mag loads ANY time.
The difference in bullet weights for a given caliber is usually in the lenghth of the nose AND the base. The further the bullet goes into the case,the higher the pressures will be. As in a 4 grain charge of Bullseye will show higher pressures in a 38 than a 357 with IDENTICAL bullets. I have several of the old Midway Load Maps that show different pressure levels with different bullet types of the same weight with the same charge of same powder in same case.
As a shop teacher once told me "there aint no such thing as a free lunch".

[David LaPell]

Your thinking almost what are the old .38-44 loads which of course are what I use in my Outdoorsman. I have a copy of a 2006 Handloader article detailing quite well how to do this and if you want PM I'll send you a copy. I use nickel .38 Special +P brass and two lead bullets exclusively, the Lyman #358429 and the #358156 which when seated in the lower crimp groove is perfect for those hot loads. My gun likes 12.5 grains of 2400 with a 358156 HP which averages over 1,200 fps with its 6 1/2 inch barrel. I mark the bottom of the loaded round with a black permanent marker by drawing a line or an X so that I know for sure about that load plus I heavily label my box of loaded rounds with warnings because that load in a standard .38 Special would most certainly shoot the gun loose if not worse, but in that heavy N frame it's the cat's beeehind let me tell you with excellent accuracy and even Elmer Keith when testing the new .357 in 1935 found his .38-44 handloads were flatter shooting than the .357's factory loads at that time.

[white eagle]

just to be clear I want to load a 200 gr Boolit with a long nose in 38 special cases
if I use 357 mag cases they are way to long to chamber
one resolve is to trim mag brass to accommodate the long nose
second is to use shorter 38 sp.brass
yes David I will pm you for the article and thank you
fwiw I am not trying to start a new trend and I do realize others have walked this path before
just looking for thoughts on the matter

[paul h]

As I'm accuracy oriented I prefer to have as much case and bullet support in the cylinder as possible. Going to 38 sp cases to allow a long nosed bullet to chamber results in alignment that is less than ideal, and you also have additional volume in the chamber not occupied by brass that will rob you of a slight amount of pressure.

The best way to go is get a custom mold made to maximize what you can do with your guns cylinder with 357 brass. The next best is to seat the 200gr bullet in a 357 mag case to cylinder length -0.030" and crimp into the nose of the bullet. I've used a 180gr wfn that was specially designed for a contender and crimped into the nose the bullet worked great in my 357. I was using Paco Kelley top charges of 2400, so if bullets jumping the no canalure crimp were an issue I would have seen it.

The 38sp case would be my option of last resort.

[white eagle]

I guess my main concern is if the brass itself is up to the task,pressure wise
but then why wouldn't it be brass is brass
I will just start from scratch and build a heavy hunting load for it

[paul h]

In general, brass is not the week point in revolvers. I haven't loaded 38 sp brass to see how strong it is, but as far as I know with moder brass 38 sp and 357 and made to essentially the same dimensions and hardess excepting their length and headstamp. I've loaded 357 cases in a blackhawk and contender to borderline stupid levels and can attest that modern brass if very strong.

BTW, I'll gladly send you some 200gr wfn gc cast bullets with the canalure in the right spot for the 357 mag if you're interested.

[Good Cheer]

.357's loaded in .38 cases?
All just a matter of how deep you push the boolit in the case.
If you got .357 powder space left then it's a .357 if you load it like one. And then you kablooie somebody's pride and joy .38 Special when the cartridges get mixed.

[MtGun44]

Consider the possibility of one of these bombs finding it's way into an old .38 Spl
revolver. . . . . . . .

Bill

[429421Cowboy]

I have heard of guys wanting to load 200 grain bullets intended for the .357 Max in Special brass so it will chamber in a .357 handgun, an internet search will turn some interesting reads up. I also know of guys that will load heavy bullets, like the 200 Hornady, in Special brass to keep the OAL at .357 spec for running through a levergun to allow feeding. Nothing too special or new about it as long as the OAL is kept the same as mag length then a mag start load should get you started.

[44MAG#1]

While everyone agrees about safety if one exercises caution in keeping the ammo safe it isn't really much of a problem.
Senario: if one is shooting these "bombs" in his favorite 357 Mag while shooting with a friend that is using a 38 Special make sure that said friend doesn't grab any of your ammo. That should be all the warning the friend should need.
Keep the ammo marked with an attention grabbing marking too.
If we didn't do things based on potential dangers than we probably would even DRIVE to the range or use power tools or several other things that we do.
CAUTION is the main word. Remember the word C-A-U-T-I-O-N it should be practiced in everything we do. Not just loading and shooting.

[jwp475]

While everyone agrees about safety if one exercises caution in keeping the ammo safe it isn't really much of a problem.
Senario: if one is shooting these "bombs" in his favorite 357 Mag while shooting with a friend that is using a 38 Special make sure that said friend doesn't grab any of your ammo. That should be all the warning the friend should need.
Keep the ammo marked with an attention grabbing marking too.
If we didn't do things based on potential dangers than we probably would even DRIVE to the range or use power tools or several other things that we do.
CAUTION is the main word. Remember the word C-A-U-T-I-O-N it should be practiced in everything we do. Not just loading and shooting.



If the 200 grain bullet loaded into the 38 cases is the same over all lenght as a lighter bullet loaded into 457 mag case then they will be too long to chamber in most 38 special revolvers. Would they not


I agree nothing new here and it can be done

[David LaPell]

I have hundreds of loaded .38-44 rounds here and how I keep it separate from my standard .38 loads I use a few methods. One I use only +P brass to start with, then I mark the daylights out of every box they are loaded in. On top of that I mark the bottom of the live round by taking a permanent marker by drawing a line on them which tumbling removes later on. So far I have not had any issues or problems.

The .357 came about because back in the early thirties when the .38 Special Hi-Speed came out there was a great chance of them ending up in a K frame or old Colt which would damage it, so the .38 Special was lengthened.

[44MAG#1]

"If the 200 grain bullet loaded into the 38 cases is the same over all lenght as a lighter bullet loaded into 457 mag case then they will be too long to chamber in most 38 special revolvers. Would they not"?
Very true but there may be someone reading this that may want to use the 173 gr Keith with a warm loads so we must stress the word c-a-u-t-i-o-n.
If we stress that word it may satisfy some of the hand wringer types.
I try to be careful in everything to do with reloading but I do venture into the area known as "out of the box" quite often.

[jwp475]

"if the 200 grain bullet loaded into the 38 cases is the same over all lenght as a lighter bullet loaded into 457 mag case then they will be too long to chamber in most 38 special revolvers. Would they not"?
Very true but there may be someone reading this that may want to use the 173 gr keith with a warm loads so we must stress the word c-a-u-t-i-o-n.
If we stress that word it may satisfy some of the hand wringer types.
I try to be careful in everything to do with reloading but i do venture into the area known as "out of the box" quite often.



+1...........

[subsonic]

My wife's 15-3 has a longer cylinder than her model 28-2. My 686-4 cylinder is very slightly longer than her 15-3.

They will fit in .38s they don't belong in.

.38 wadcutter or practice brass is pretty thin in the web and will crack if you push it very hard. This is one reason they make +P brass.

My friend killed some .38 brass by loading 6gr of Unique behind a 358429 for his M27 (that I should have bought from him....)

[MasS&W]

You just have to be careful of flamecutting the chambers. The shorter case allows the flame (plasma, if we're honest) to slowly eat away at the chamber walls. When you put a 357 in there, the case will expand to fill the area that the 38spl left exposed to the flame. It happens with 357s too, but since the flamecut portion is forward of the case, you don't get the sticking you'll get if you shoot a lot of 38s. My buddys mdl 19 has this problem. Save yourself the worry about accidently loading a high presure 38 in a 38 or expanding your cylinders, and just shoot 357s in the 357.

[rintinglen]

I am inclined to vote ".357 loads in .357 Brass." This ain't the 1950's where .357 brass is hard to come by and the range is awash in once-fired 38 casings. There is darned little difference these days between the price of 38 brass and 357 brass. Even if loading 200 grain boolits for silhouettes, I'd trim .357 brass down to 38 length.

This not to say that I have always followed this track, but it is safer. I may be dead and perhaps my grandson or grand daughter will find a box or a stray round and put it in Grandad's old Police Positive. I'd like to protect them when I'm gone from something like that.

[725]

As long as you keep the .38 / .357 separate and ID'd, you shouldn't have any problems. I shoot 358627 (I think that's the mould number) out of my .38 <215 gr with my alloy>. I also load them in .38 brass crimped at the second crimp groove for the .357. I never have loaded them hot that way but it works. Check out an article by Glenn Fryxel about the "Bullet For All Seasons". He has all the load data you might need.

[One Gun Andy]

In February, 1977 Skeeter Skelton wrote of his initial and subsequent experiences, beginning in the 1950s, with .357 Magnum loadings in .38 Special brass as follows:
"This .357 magnum was supurbly accurate with .38 Special wadcutters. I sometimes sustituted it for the Colt [New Service] in centerfire target matches. But with the .357 factory ammunition available to me, it was worthless as a deputy gun. I read, asked questions, and contacted a fellow named Ray Thompson, who designed a .357 bullet that used a .357 gascheck on it's base. Made by Lyman, it was designated the No. 358156 and supplied in both solid and hollowpopint versions.
Having only a handful of .357 cases, I drew instead on the thousands of .38 Special hulls in my hoard, loading 13.5 grains of 2400 powder with the bullet sized .357 inch and seated out to it's lower crimping groove. (The slug has two crimping grooves.) The result was my first handload made on my own equipment, and it was my first attempt at reloading a high-velocity cartridge. It is extremely accurate in good guns, giving around 1200 to 1300 fps velocity.
I have probably loaded more rounds of this cartridge than any other. It has taken all manner of game for me, including turkey, javelina, antelope, and deer. And it has been along on some interesting cases in law enforcement."
I believe this is a very strong endorsement for shooting .357 Magnum-type loads from .38 Special cases. In a later article Skeeter noted that when shot side-by-side, the 385156 was more accurate in the .38 Special cases than it was in .357 brass which was readily available to him by that time.
This loading offers an alternative to those who have heavy-duty revolvers chambered for the .38 Special that could easily handle the .357-like loads, such as the Ruger Security-Six series and GP100. I have used this load a good bit as I have limited access to .357 brass, but can acquire once-fired .38 cases in 5 gallon buckets! I appreciate this load and find it accurate and pleasant to shoot. Enjoy those heavy-loaded .38 Special cases White Eagle!

[TCTex]

I haven't don it in the 357, but I have in the 44...

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/data/500/068.JPG


Left to right: 44Mag with 300gr XTP, 44Mag with 240gr, 44Sp with 240gr, and 44Mag with 240gr.


Bullets are 300gr XTP(L) and 240gr Magtech (R)


The case second from the left has been trimmed 1/10 of an inch to load the Magtech on the second crimp line. OAL is 1.75 for the 300gr XTP. the Magtech is 1.74


Note the blue lines on the cases. They are the bullet ends on the case indicating powder capacity.

[TCTex]

Ps, I am posting this because I felt like the same rules applied to the 44 as to the 357. I also hoped the picture would help as well. FWIW...