75,000 Wadcutters in a Model 27

[Texasflyboy]

75,000 Wadcutters in a Model 27

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/articles/75000wadcutters_files/image005.jpg


I like wheelguns. Be they Smith & Wesson, Colt, or Ruger, I’ve always had a fondness for blue steel revolvers and their later cousins in stainless steel. Because I like revolvers, I like to shoot them quite a bit, but even for a Model 27, a steady diet of full power .357 magnum loads usually results in a shorter life for the gun, and for the shooter. My favorite load for my wheelguns has always been target loaded wadcutters. For the Model 27 I started with factory loaded wadcutters in the late 1980’s, before I had the reloading bug. I shot factory ammo for years before I decided I needed to “roll my own” and enjoy the savings and benefits of my reloads.

In 1992 I purchased a new 5” Smith & Wesson Model 27-2 at a local gunshow. The revolver came in the wood box with the cleaning rod, screwdriver and other usual accompaniments. As I was known to do in those days, I carefully ground down the grooved target trigger and slowly polished the face to a smooth mirror shine. Following the careful well-written instructions in Kuhnhausen’s book on Smith Revolvers, I slowly and carefully smoothed the action. The rear leaf sight was changed to bottom the rear sight for the loads I intended to use. The last refinement was a set of Pachmayr rubber grips that fit my meaty hands rather well.

For the next few years I shot a variety of loads with this revolver, coming to love the big N frame and the slow improvement of its double action pull. I grew accustomed to, and then mastered the double action trigger. Most of my loads in those early years were a mixture of factory ammunition and handloads. An early favorite of mine was the Skeeter Skelton .38 Special Load. The Lyman 358156 Gas Check cast Semi-Wadcutter over a hot load of 2400. It was an accurate load, but wearing on the shooter over extended shooting sessions.

Enter the factory wadcutter loads. A shooting friend had a stash of Winchester Western (WW Headstamp) .38 Special factory wadcutter from his competition shooting days. After a short negotiation, I owned his stockpile. In the N frame, the factory wadcutter loads barely moved the big revolver, and I could shoot hundreds of rounds each session. But soon, I exhausted the stockpile and was left with just the brass. A quick search of my Lyman reloading manual revealed a suitable load for the brass. I needed to reload.

At about the same time my reloading setup matured. I had restarted casting bullets again after a long hiatus. I also rekindled my love affair with Hensley & Gibbs bullet moulds. When I was a crew cut wearing kid in South Louisiana, my first exposure to reloading and shooting was when I was introduced to bullet casting by a sheriff’s deputy. He carefully taught me to cast .38 Special Wadcutters with a 10 cavity gang mould and a ladle. It was slow going, but in those days, I had plenty of time between customers at my dad’s service station, so casting bullets was an enjoyable pastime. It also didn’t hurt that I was friends with the local Law Enforcement community, a relationship that later helped tame my wild teenage years. That big gang mould spewed bullets like a ripe pea patch. Oddly, I didn’t shoot the ones I cast, they were traded over a summer for my first revolver, a brand new Smith & Wesson Model 14-4, which the deputy gave me late one August evening. It was the beginning of a lifelong love affair with wheel guns. And cast bullets.

When I renewed my interest in casting in the 1990’s, I remembered that big 10 cavity Hensley & Gibbs mould I used as a kid. In a fortunate combination of events, eBay was going strong and I was able to quickly find a perfect condition 10 cavity #50 in plain base. Thus began my wadcutter reloading. I decided to be methodical, and carefully worked up a load that shot accurately in that 5” Model 27. I also corresponded via email with a few shooters, and discovered the variables that could be eliminated to improve groups. I thought I had reached my goal. Little did I know.

For the rest of the 1990’s I enjoyed acceptable accuracy with my cast reloads. When I moved to Northern Virginia in 2008, I discovered a neighbor whose vast experience with cast bullets, reloading, and other subjects dwarfed my own knowledge. Ed Harris kindly mentored me when I explained my success with my own reloads, and he gave me the knowledge I needed to improve on what I had. He patiently explained to me how to eliminate variables and I re-read all of his articles on .38 Special loads. The information was an eye-opener. I still had a lot to learn.

Ed also tutored me. First was the mastery of tumble lubing with Lee Liquid Alox. All those years previously I had patiently used a Star Sizer with a .358” die to size and then lube those wadcutters, one at a time. Ed showed me how to lube hundreds of wadcutters in about two minutes and allow them to air dry in about a day or so. A vast improvement on my own laborious technique. I lubed as cast, no sizing. Using a micrometer, I discovered that my 10 cavity mould dropped bullets right at .358”/.359”, perfect to shoot as cast. Below is a photo of a short casting session with a 10 cavity Hensley & Gibbs #50 Plain Base:

Mound of Wadcutters (http://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/articles/75000wadcutters_files/image007.jpg)

Ed also encouraged me to exclusively use wadcutter brass, something I had not always done. I usually grabbed whatever .38 Special brass was at hand and loaded them. Accuracy was mediocre as I later discovered. I could do much better by focusing on wadcutter brass. I methodically went through my entire .38 Special brass pile and pulled out all the wadcutter brass (double cannelure). I was left with two head stamps, Winchester Western (WW) and Winchester. I went one step further and sorted the brass and nickel plated WW head stamps into separate ammo cans.


http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/wwbrass2.jpg

After conferring with Ed, all of the elements were in place. I had the projectile (the excellent Hensley & Gibbs Plain Base #50 Button Nose Wadcutter ~146 grains as cast), the wadcutter case, and the load (~3.5 grains of Bullseye). I settled down to load.

Groups immediately began to improve. Previously, I had been impressed with 3” to 4” groups at 10 yards. I thought this was acceptable accuracy for wadcutter reloads. Using the new recipe, my average groups began to shrink and my confidence in the load began to increase. 3” groups were rapidly becoming the maximum, 2” groups were average. On some long strings of fire, 11 of 12 rounds would go into 1.5”. The more I shot, the better I shot. Moving the target closer to 7 yards closed the groups dramatically. I used a homemade cardstock target with a 1” round circle as the center bull. I routinely began to excise the center bull with strings of fire.

One evening I was shooting at the local range with Ed and he encouraged me to move the target out to 22 yards, the maximum for that range. I was hesitant, I feared I would hit everywhere but the target. But I tried it and was surprised I could keep 90% of my shots in the 8 ½ x 11” sheet of cardstock. So I kept practicing. I discovered that shooting at the longer distance forced me to address sloppy shooting techniques that I ignored at 10 yards. Front Sight…front sight….squeeze…front sight became a mantra I said to myself over and over. And the groups started to shrink at 22 yards. And become very round. I discovered shooting 300 rounds at 22 yards to “warm up” improved my shooting at 15 yards when I moved the target closer. Even better at 10 yards. My routine was to warm up at 22, then shoot at 15, then 10 and finally at 7 yards. Approximately 400 rounds per session. The load was working perfectly and I “locked it in” as they say. I decided that this load was going to be my one .38 Special target load and I wasn’t going to change anything. Over the years I had developed a habit of tearing off the Winchester Small Primer box tops and tossing them into an open .30 caliber ammo can when I recharged my Dillon Primer tubes. I have a dedicated Dillon 550B setup for .38 special wadcutter loading. The last station is a Lee Factory Crimp die, set to Ed’s suggested specs. The ammo can began to fill up with cardboard tops.

Over the years I’ve shot many 1” groups at 10 yards with my load. I’ve come to expect that the load will perform as long as I perform. The following picture is a target I shot in February 2011 with the same load and the Model 27:

Target shot with Model 27 and Wadcutters (http://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/articles/75000wadcutters_files/image011.jpg)

Fast forward to January 2012. I decided one day to count all those Winchester cardboards. I counted 810. That’s 81,000 small pistol primers. My best guess is that about 75,000 of those are 38 Special Wadcutters. All were shot in that Model 27 I purchased in the early 1990’s.

The action on that Model 27 is now buttery smooth. The finish shows the honest wear of hundreds of range sessions and cleanings. I’ve never taken the side plate off since the original action job. The sights remain unchanged. It shoots 1” groups at 10 yards all day, every day, each time I bring it to the range. All of the loads I now shoot are of my own manufacture. Tracking expenses closely, I calculate that each wadcutter load cost me about 7 cents. Good value and well worth my time.

Factory wadcutter ammunition is one of the most accurate factory loads that can be purchased for the .38 Special. I’m pleased to discover that perfectly acceptable accuracy can be achieved by the reloader using his own components paying careful attention to those factors that improve the performance of the completed rounds.

I plan to continue to shoot this load in that Model 27 well into the fall and winter of my life.

Here is the Model 27, well into the fall of its life. Pictured with another favorite load, the Hensley & Gibbs #135 Hollow Point (Hollow Point version of the Lyman 358156GC):

Smith & Wesson Model 27 5" (http://www.hensleygibbs.com/molds/135/27_135.jpg)


Here are two photos of the forcing cone area. I didn't realize the lead plating was so severe until I took the photos. Might be time for a "deep cleaning."

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/articles/75000wadcutters_files/image015.jpg


http://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/articles/75000wadcutters_files/image022.jpg

[felix]

It's too bad that most of us on this board do not have the interest, and fortitude, to follow through as you have. Just think, if everyone in the world practiced their given profession like this there would be no reason to have politicians, nowhere, nohow! There would be no time for entertaining the capital sins against the Lord!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

... felix

[Char-Gar]

There is much to be said for truly using a handgun. Some many folks just "jackrabbit" around buying, selling, tradings looking for the new gun "fix".

The Smith and Wesson N frame in 357 Mag, is the nee plus ultra sixgun for long life with mild 38 Special loads. I got my first on in 1964 and have not been with at least on since that time. Today I have two (4" and 6") purchased new in 1981 and 1982. They are still as good as new, function and accuracy wise. They have been shot allot.

These days I seem to be through with my Magnum phase and have fallen in love again with the 38 Special, 45 ACP and 45 Colt with factory level loads. Once you figure out shooting is supposed to be fun and not a puberty test, life gets far easier.

[MPnine]

This is the best post I have seen in a long time. I truly enjoyed reading.

As for me, I will be shooting my first batch of cast wadcutters this weekend. Maybe someday I'll have a great story and an impressive round count to share...

[captaint]

I remember the days of "Hmmm, wonder how fast I can make this go ??" Any more, it's more like "I'll just save the powder and enjoy myself"..... Actually, more fun this way... enjoy Mike

[Wayne Dobbs]

That was quite possibly the best post I've ever read! Thanks so much for a great read and good information. I've shot the 3.5 BE load with the 148 DEWC with complete satisfaction also. And I am really envious that you have Ed Harris for a neighbor. His articles and information have been golden for so many years.

Thanks again, brother!

[williamwaco]

Texas!

That was one of if not the most enjoyable post I have read on any forum.

Thanks.


.

[Michael J. Spangler]

BRAVO!!!!

amazing thread my friend

[geargnasher]

I second the "bravo"! That's the sort of read that I tend to expect from a good gun rag, but so often do not see anymore.

And to think, someone on this forum recently tried to declare the .38 Special "dead"!

Gear

[Char-Gar]

I reread the original post and when I did, a couple of thoughts came to my mind on the subject at hand.

1. I have long held the opnion that 38 Special wadcutter brass offered better performance with WC (either solid or hollow base) that traditional brass. This was common knowledge among Bullseye shooters in by gone days, but has seemed to have fallen between the cracks as the years passed. There are even some folks who dispute that now.

A few years back, I put out an offer to buy 38 Special wadcutter brass on one of the gun boards, and came up with about 60 boxes of once fired brass. It was mixed Winchester, Western, Remington and Peters, but enough boxes of each brand to make a good lot to reload. I am really delighted to have that stash of cases. The way they last, I will never need any more.

2. Some years back when Terry Murback was still writing, he did a great article on 38 Special mid-range wadcutter loads. It was one of the few and by far the best article I have read on the subject. About a year ago, in a coversation with Terry about the article, he told me that in all of his extensive testing, the same powder charge was the most consistant in accuracy no matter which bullet was used. The powder charge is 3.5 grains of Bulleye, the same charge that was recommended to you and which you use.

The bottom line is I have found wadcutter brass to be superior for wadcutter bullets and 3.5/BE to be a superior powder charge for mid-range loads. I even use that charge extensively with SWC and RN bullets, also with good results.

Articles such as yours, that reflect years of shooting are far more valuable to folks, than those who post a few bragging groups and consider they have got things figured out. Good job!

[Echo]

MAN, I LOVE THIS BOARD! Where else would one find such an outstanding post?


WAY TO GO, TFB!

[9.3X62AL]

Superb writing, and classic information. This one needs to be stickied.

[GLL]

Very nicely done ! :)

Jerry

[sw282]

TX--75000RDS is almost a ton of lead. What kind of pot do you use?? What is your main lead source??

[Love Life]

Great post. To be honest I didn't even know there was wadcutter brass. :oops:

Now I will be on the hunt for some of this brass and I will start playing with my old beat up Lyman wadcutter mould. Who knew those things were for something besides slugging barrels?

Thank you for the great write up and that revolver sure is a beauty.

[Springfield]

So why is the wadcutter brass better? Snugger fit on the bullet? More consistent ignition? Something else?

[Char-Gar]

Wadcutter brass has a longer straight untapered case wall than the standard case. This allows the deep seated wadcutter bullet to not hit the thicker wall of the case toward the case head. This can cause the loaded case to bulge and the bullet to be damaged. This also gives an even case tension on the entire length of the bullets. Wadcutter brass can be distinguished from regular brass by the double crimp, as clearly shown in TexasFlyboys photos.

Don't use wadcutter brass for higher pressure loads.

Factory 38 Special match (wadcutter) ammo comes in these cases. I don't recall wadcutter brass being available by itself.

The standard match load was 2.7/BE which gave a velocity of 650 - 700 fps. This is good for either hollow base or solid base wadcutter bullets.

When the powder charged is upped to 3.5/BE, you are in the full charge/service velocity of 800 to 850 fps. DO NOT shoot hollow based wadcutters at this higher charge, as you are likely to blow off a bullet skirt which will be left behind in your barrel as an obstruction. Use solid based wadcutter only.

This is stuff you need to know if you are going to load 38 Special wadcutter ammo.

In the days of yore wadcutter bullets were cast from 1-30 or even 1-40 alloy, so they don't have to be hard. While not a tumble lube fan, this is one place where it truly shines.

[Love Life]

That H&G #50 lloks interesting. My lyman mould casts FAT at .363 and the part lines are clearly visible. I do not believe it to be serviceable for the purpose of wadcutter fun.

Time to go search E-bay for one of these moulds.

[Iowa Fox]

Thanks for a great post. Does Ed Harris ever post on this forum?

[Char-Gar]

That H&G #50 lloks interesting. My lyman mould casts FAT at .363 and the part lines are clearly visible. I do not believe it to be serviceable for the purpose of wadcutter fun.

Time to go search E-bay for one of these moulds.

Hensley and Gibbs molds are some of the finest ever made, but they are very pricey. I would try your .363 Lymans before I split for a new high dollar mold. At the worse, you can run those big bullets through a lee sizer pretty darn quick.

[Texasflyboy]

Thanks for a great post. Does Ed Harris ever post on this forum?

No, not that I am aware of. I've invited him here before, but Ed is retired now...enjoying the life of a country gentleman. He hangs out at the Cast Bullet Association for the most part and is a regular contributor to the "Fouling Shot" and other online forums. Grant Cunningham has been re-posting some of Ed's musings over at his blog:

Grant Cunningham (http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog.html)

[Texasflyboy]

TX--75000RDS is almost a ton of lead. What kind of pot do you use?? What is your main lead source??

1,564 lbs @ 146 grains per to be exact.

The pot I use is the pot I made and posted here at Cast Boolits. It's working capacity is about 100lbs. The original post is here:

Diary of a Casting Pot Construction (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=5126&referrerid=559)

The links in the OP are dead so I moved the post to its own page here:

Cast Boolits Model 1 Casting Pot (http://hgmould.gunloads.com/newpot/instructions.htm)

I buy my lead like everyone else. Lately I have been buying pure lead off a seller on eBay for about $1 lb. I create 10:1 by using 10 pounds of pure lead with a pound of Tin from a cache of 1lb Solder rolls I have.

[429421Cowboy]

...That's the sort of read that I tend to expect from a good gun rag, but so often do not see anymore...

Gear

If i may borrow your post gear! Very well written, especially in this time of "gun a week and/or load a week" shooters

[TCFAN]

This is a great post. I do love the 38 special with wad cutters. I just now came in from shooting a couple hundred round at 25 yards standing at the 25yd slow fire pistol target. I am not very good standing shooting 1 hand but I do like to do it.I have always used the winchester wad cutter brass but my load that shoots the best is 3.4grs of Bullseye in my S&W 14-6.
If what was said about not using hollow base WC with heavier loads is right I have been very lucky because I use a lot of 358395 HBWC's with 3.4grs of bullseye. I will have to look into that and maybe change to a solid base WC.

Char-Gar could you post where I might find that article by Terry Murback on the 38 special............Terry

[Char-Gar]

This is a great post. I do love the 38 special with wad cutters. I just now came in from shooting a couple hundred round at 25 yards standing at the 25yd slow fire pistol target. I am not very good standing shooting 1 hand but I do like to do it.I have always used the winchester wad cutter brass but my load that shoots the best is 3.4grs of Bullseye in my S&W 14-6.
If what was said about not using hollow base WC with heavier loads is right I have been very lucky because I use a lot of 358395 HBWC's with 3.4grs of bullseye. I will have to look into that and maybe change to a solid base WC.

Char-Gar could you post where I might find that article by Terry Murback on the 38 special............Terry

I have it scanned and will email it to you, if you will PM me an email addy. Murback said I could do this, if he got his regular royalty check. I told him to go out and stand by his mail box, as it should be there any day. I think he is still standing there. :-)

[thebigmac]

Texas Fly Boy-(also Char-Gar) You guys really know your stuff about .38 wadcutters. I was on the Baltimore Police Pistol Team from the mid '60's+. Although
I retired in '92 I maintained my affliliation with them, partly because I became team
Captain in the mid '80's. Our ammunition was cast & reloaded by us, and it became
quite rewarding. Some members were issued 1) SAECO LEAD POT, & 1) H&G ten
cavity mould---button nose wadcutter bevel base, They shut down the ranges
that were in the (9) districts, so some of us retreaved the lead.
We were told that the Winchester WC BRASS was best for wadcutters, and the load was to be BULLSEYE 3.5 Gr, Moderate crimp in the groove provided.

When oil first became scarse the Dep't. discontinued their support for us,as we were traveling to ranges from Quantico to Harrisburg Pa. Plus all the districts
had two teams.

When we won trophys we would put them in a showcase at our FOP LODGE's
showroom. Soon the Lodge took over the support for the team. We now have
hats & shirts to wear to the matches.

Those of us who still shoot revolvers Swear by the 3.5 Gr load.

There are a LOT of us shooters still around, and a lot of them use this load.

THANKS A LOT FOR THE ABOVE INFORMATION. FOR BEGINNERS MUST BE TAUGHT
"HOW TO". THIS POST SHOULD BECOME A "STICKY". IT DESERVES IT..:Fire:. thebigmac

[paul h]

Thanks for this great post! It was one of the things that lead me to buy more H&G #50 molds than I could possibly use off the gear swap forum.

I used to shoot handguns regularly and was fairly compentent. Then I took a hiatus of several years and it's depressing how much my skills deteriorated. It's double challenging as I've noted how my eyesight has deteriorated and getting a clear iron sight picture is extra challenging.

I'm planning to get back my handgun skills, or at least give it a valiant try.

[sw282]

TX- l thank you for posting your pot. A lot bigger than my 20 lb Lee pot. l won a dc Lyman 358495 mold off ebay today. A 148gr wc mold similar to the H&G 50.. A couple boxes of WW wc ammo seem to be the only present source for wc brass. Your load will feed a 6'' SW 28-2 that is in need of shooting

[Bigslug]

Homer Simpson Voice engaged:

MMMMMMMM. . .five inch N-Frames. . .ahhhhhhhhh. . .

I have GOT to get me one of those! When you run out of ammo, (which it doesn't look like you're about to do), you can use the checkering on the top strap as a backup weapon.

[quasi]

is it possible for you to take a picture of the forcing cone and top strap of your 27? I am curious how much wear there will be after 70K wadcutters.

I remember when I was a kid in the mid 70's gun writer Bob Milek wrote an article on his 27, he had to send it back to S&W for a rebuild after 10K of jacketed bullets. As I remember the article and pictures the forcing cone was horribly worn and the top strap very flame cut. S&W re barreled it but could do nothing about the top strap.

[StrawHat]

Very interesting group of posts, the original and the responses. I am a fan of the 38 caliber cast full wadcutter bullet, although mine drop from Lee molds. When I was competing, 2.7 grains of Bullseye was the ticket but for hunting I upped the ante to get me about 900 fps from a 6" barrel. Great load and just as accurate as the slower one. I have used it in a variety of revolvers but mostly the M686 and the M15. Now the 686 is gone but the 4" M15 still shoots them accurately.

I may have to dig up my reloading notes and see how many I have put down range, between practice and competition.

I may have to find a M27-2 and see how that load does!

[rromeo]

I am glad to have such knowledge available to me. Thank you for sharing your tale.

[35remington]

Quasi, top strap cutting and wear of the forcing cone have to do with high pressures, and back in the Bob M. days he was loading pretty hot, likely well over 45,000 psi.

Top strap cutting is said to be self limiting. No so for forcing cone erosion.

Given the logarithmic increase in wear as pressure increases, the forcing cone and top strap of this 27 firing these loads is likely no where near worn out. The pressures are at or below standard 38's.

[Moonman]

Great Post, I didn't know about the WW Brass, but I just sorted some out of brass on hand. I'll have to give these loads a look.

Thanks again for this wonderful post and knowledge.

[JoeTheMechanic]

This whole thread was a great read. i have been reloading lee 148grain TL in mixed brass for my S&W M&P, circa 1949, and have more than once thought that my brass was a problem. though i've taken to weighing my boolits and that has eliminated some of the flyers, im convinced now i need to stop with the mixed stamps. i'll save the range brass for the SHTF ammo.

what about starline brass? i have a few pieces in my brass collection and if i sort a cylinder full out of my ammo box while at the range they group really well. and frankly i cant stomach how much the local shops want for wadcutters, when they even have them. maybe they will be reasonably priced at the gun show coming up,

[sw282]

l got the Lyman version of the H&G 50 mold off ebay and 1000 38 wadcutter cases from GB. The wc brass is Federal. No Winchester brass yet. l think ole Tex cornered the market on it

[alamogunr]

Thanks for the "tutorial". I have just read the entire thread and have added the .38 Spec to my favorite cartridges.

I have recently been loading WC's for a S&W Model 65 w/3" bbl. The WC's were cast in a H&G #37 four cavity. I've used a variety of powders, most recently Red Dot, only because I've got an 8 lb jug.

The Model 65 has open sights but the gun has a bobbed hammer so I shoot double action. I'm at the point that I can keep most shots on a paper plate at about 10 yards. I think I need to get that mold out and prepare for more practice.

Next will be a Highway Patrolman w/6" bbl. I haven't shot it much because it has a set of target stocks with a large thumb shelf. I don't like them at all. I see a set of replacement stocks coming soon.

With all the .38 brass I have on hand I can't see me going after wadcutter brass. It will be quite sometime before I will be able to see a difference in accuracy. Any disagreement with this statement will be duly noted and evaluated.

[Marvin S]

Great write up that gives me new inspiration. Here is my 27-2 with the best sights Ive owned on a revolver. I have about 900 rounds of the military Winchester wadcutter ammo and have made mental note to keep it separated. Think I need to buy a LEE knock off wadcutter mold. Thanks.

[alamogunr]

One of the problems of being a packrat is that you forget what you have squirreled away.

I just remembered that I have a 4 cavity H&G #50 mold. I intend to get it out and try it. I bought it on Ebay before H&G molds went out of sight. It is still wrapped in the rustproofing paper.

If I use the #50 instead of the #37 mold, and shoot 75K through the Highway Patrolman, I'll save about 200 lbs of lead. That will stretch my supply in these days of scarce WW.:D

I also remembered that I have 2400 once fired Remington wadcutter brass(double cannelure) that I bought from an individual. These are all still in the original boxes. I'll start using those when I go through what I have loaded up already.

EDIT: I just re-read this thing. It sounds as if I am planning to shoot 75K rounds thru my HP. I doubt I will live that long. I just hope I can find a load that is fairly accurate and have fun shooting it.

[FISH4BUGS]

Tom:
Great read.
I have a similar gun, but not as many rounds through it. 1956 S&W 5 screw pre Model 29. No case, tools, etc, but 99%. I figure I have maybe 5,000 rounds through it.
Still working on the perfect bullet and load.

[bowfin]

I wonder if using .357 brass (in a .357 revolver) would alleviate the problem of a wadcutters being squeezed into the inside taper of the case.

[sw282]

Not on Federal or Midway 357 Brass for me. l used the Lyman wc bullet sized w/358 Lee Sizer and tumble lubed.

[Valley Forge]

Texas Flyboy thanks for the great post and to the rest of you for your responses. I enjoyed this a great deal and once again, I've learned something. I was just sorting through some very old brass from a friend's estate and was reminded that I really had no idea what the double cannelure was about. I'm inspired to go through all my empty 38's, cull the wadcutters, pull out my H&G 10 banger and get to work...hmmm...maybe I'd better "eats me spinach" first, 'cause that dude is heavy.

[NLS1]

Wow, this thread is great

I just recently bought a lee wc mold here, with the intention of making tame loads for my 357 for fun shooting. This thread could not have come at a better time as I was already excited about those 38 loads!

Hey Tex, thanks for the effort and exciting read, I know that stuff takes time. But what a great story!

Looks like a 8lber of BE is in order too next time I am at the reloading supply shop.

Dan

[frankenfab]

Really cool thread. I am contemplating the same regimen, but in .32 caliber.

[MBTcustom]

My dad has a model 27. He used to shoot 1000 rounds a week through it before I was born. He always wrapped it up in the oil paper that it came in and treated it like it was made of gold. He has told me many times that it is the best target pistol that was ever made, and I agree with him. He doesn't shoot any more, and I hope he makes it a birthday present to me someday (heh heh, unlikely!) I am going to buy one myself someday, but I'm not going to go cheap on this one, so I'm biding my time.

[tactikel]

Great thread, My Mod 28 4" has just over 30K thru her. Bought her new in 1975.
Favorite loads: 148 gr WC Ohaus cast in WW with 3.3 gr in Bullseye or Titegroup.

[cptkeybrd]

This is why this is the best place to hang out. Got a warm feeling reading your post. Making me remember why I love shooting so much. It started when I was a cub scout. Thank you

[texassako]

Great post! I just finished up a few hundred loads similar to yours to run through my Ruger Security Six tomorrow. I always wondered why my WW brass had the 2 cannelures since it was given to me. It is the last of the WCs that were given to me by the same shooter, and casting new ones is the reason I found this site and your post.

[unclebill]

great post and thread!
i didnt know about the wadcutter brass either.
i have a 27-2 that is my most accurate wheel gun
and i love it so
i shoot the same boolits but use trailboss with good results
here is my baby
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l272/billhedges/IMG_3469.jpg

[Char-Gar]

Went to the range yesterday and me and two friends put 200 rounds through my 6" Model 28. The load? Well 3.5/BE over a WC of course! Lots of fun taking the steel plates down. That load will smack them down smartly.

For fun a couple of drink cans were placed on the berm and I shot them with 125 gr. Black Hills factory ammo. The bullets punched right through the cans and they did not move. Hit the same cans with the 38 Special WC load and they jumped a foot each time. What does that tell us?

[sw282]

l picked up a H&G #50 4cavity mold off ebay tonite. 5K Win sp primers and 4lbs of Bullseye over the weekend. l am still chasing those elusive Win 38 wadcutter cases.

[Texasflyboy]

Wadcutter Brass was/is available from:

Winchester Western : Headstamp = W W

Available in Brass or Nickel

Winchester : Headstamp: Winchester

Available in Brass

Remington: Headstamp: R P

Available in Nickel

[Char-Gar]

Wadcutter brass is was also made with the Peters and Federal headstamp.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Great read!!!!!
I don't have a Model 27 but I do have a 5 screw Highway Patrol Model it just doesn't shine as much as the 27. My dad bought it some time back in the 1950's. He carried it as a service revolver for about 20 years until he became Chief Dective, he then got a S&W 5 shot snubby. Then later he became Under Sheirff, this was in Pinal County, Arizona. He gave the HP model to my oldest brother, he was a Deputy for Gila County. When my dad died I got the S&W 5 shot. After my brother retired as a law officer, he worked as a Security guard for the Show Boat Casino in Las Vegas and needed a small side arm so he traded my the HP for the snubby. Between my self, my brother and my dad, we have probably shot 50,000 rounds through it. 80% of which were reloads, and most of those were wad cutters. It's a great gun and wad cutters are my first choice.

[Char-Gar]

The only difference between the Model 27 and Model 28 is cosmetic, plus the 27 has a few more options like target trigger and target hammer. Other than that they are the same pistols.

I have not been without a 28 (Highway Patroman) since 1963. Today I am down to only 2, a 4" and a 6". The 4" in kinda strange as it came from the factory with a high polish Model 27 cylinder. I bought new, so I know it came that way.

Some years back, Skeeter Skelton wrote that the Model 28 was the best value sixgun on the market. You got a heck of allot of revolver for your money when you bought one.

[alamogunr]

The only difference between the Model 27 and Model 28 is cosmetic, plus the 28 has a few more options like target trigger and target hammer. Other than that they are the same pistols.

I have not been without a 27 (Highway Patroman) since 1963. Today I am down to only 2, a 4" and a 6". The 4" in kinda strange as it came from the factory with a high polish Model 28 cylinder. I bought new, so I know it came that way.

Some years back, Skeeter Skelton wrote that the Model 27 was the best value sixgun on the market. You got a heck of allot of revolver for your money when you bought one.

Both my Highway Patrolman's are designated as Model 28's. The second still has that stamped behind the crane even though the pistol has been converted to .44 Spec.

[Char-Gar]

Both my Highway Patrolman's are designated as Model 28's. The second still has that stamped behind the crane even though the pistol has been converted to .44 Spec.

You are correct, I got my 7s and 8s mixed up for a time. I will go back and change that.

[frankenfab]

I thought model 28's were fixed sight? I had both at one time. I seem to remember that. AM I wrong?

[Char-Gar]

No, both the 28 and the 27 have adjustable sights.

Smith and Wesson did make a special run of fix sighted N frame 357 magnums for some New England State Police agency and some of the overun was sold on the commerical market. I forget the model number was it was not 28 or 27.

There were also plenty of L and K frame fix sighted 357 Magnums.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Question! Are Model 27 & 28's stamped with a number designation or are there some that are not? This is kind of like answering my own question as My Highway Patrol Model does not have a Model number. It also does not have a frame size ( such as N, L, K, ) stamped on the frame anywhere or on the grip frame. I also have a S&W 44 mag 4 screw stamped only S&W 44 Magnum it is not a Model 29, I think it is known as a pre Model 29. On the left side of the grip frame at the bottom it is stamped ( R-N ) and those are the only Letters that I can find on the frame.

[StrawHat]

...Question! Are Model 27 & 28's stamped with a number designation or are there some that are not?...

No, the number designation came about in the 50s, (someone will know the correct year). Prior to that they had names, such as Highway Patrolman etc.

[H.Callahan]

No, the number designation came about in the 50s, (someone will know the correct year).
Generally, 1957. As with many things Smith does, there was no definitive date that they switched to model numbers. It depended a bit on the individual line/model, but 1957 is generally accepted as approximately when it happened.

[Texasflyboy]

Smith and Wesson did make a special run of fix sighted N frame 357 magnums for some New England State Police agency and some of the overun was sold on the commerical market. I forget the model number was it was not 28 or 27.

Smith & Wesson Model 520 for the New York State Police.

Here is a link:

S&W Model 520 NYSP (http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/246426-model-520-nysp.html)

[Char-Gar]

Generally, 1957. As with many things Smith does, there was no definitive date that they switched to model numbers. It depended a bit on the individual line/model, but 1957 is generally accepted as approximately when it happened.

I know this sounds odd today, but Smith and Wesson had no detailed mechanical drawings of its guns. There was a disassembled "master" kept in their vault. If somebody need a spec they went to the vault and took the measurment they needed.

In 1957, it was decided to produce detailed mechanical drawings of their models. The first one was the popular Military and Police and it was given the model number 10. The other named models followed suite. It took a little more than a year to finish the project.

[Char-Gar]

Smith & Wesson Model 520 for the New York State Police.

Here is a link:

S&W Model 520 NYSP (http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/246426-model-520-nysp.html)

Yep that is it. My sister bought one at a gun show, but it proved to heavy for her and she sold it to me. I never took a liking to it and sold it down river.

[sw282]

l picked up my H&G #50 mold 4 cavity from the Post Office yesterday.The quality impresses me. Boy its really heavy compared to my Lyman 2 cavity. l now have all the supplies for Flyboy's load except the WW wadcutter brass. Guess l will just have to settle for that batch Fed wadcutter brass won off GB awhile back. Hope to try the #50 this weekend

[rromeo]

I know this sounds odd today, but Smith and Wesson had no detailed mechanical drawings of its guns. There was a disassembled "master" kept in their vault. If somebody need a spec they went to the vault and took the measurment they needed.

In 1957, it was decided to produce detailed mechanical drawings of their models. The first one was the popular Military and Police and it was given the model number 10. The other named models followed suite. It took a little more than a year to finish the project.

That's interesting. Thanks for the education.

[Char-Gar]

1957 was a signicant year at Smith and Wesson for a couple of reasons. They went from model names to numbers and mechanical drawings. They also changed the heat treament on their 38 Specials (K and J frame) to take higher pressures without undue wear. Thus revolvers from that time forth are rated for +P ammo.

More trivia...

[Dale53]

I had to smile while reading this whole thread as it mostly mirrors my own experience. I was fortunate as a teenager who was mentored by several "old hands" who were accomplished pistol shots.

I have, for some time, been using a six cavity H&G mould for the dbl ended W/C #251. Then a couple of months ago, on the Cast Bullet Assn Forum a gentleman offered a four cavity H&G mould complete with handles for the #50 BB W/C for a decent price. I ordered it out and it was, as described, in excellent condition. I ran off a couple thousand bullets and then sized/lubed them in my Star. They ran right at .358" and the .358 sizing die just "kissed" the bullets. Here is the results of my first outing with this bullet (standing at 25 yards):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img038_1294x1200.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/HG50BB-1402_900x1200.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/HG50BB-1399_1600x1200.jpg

It is, indeed, a stellar bullet design from a great mould. The four cavity iron mould is only about 1/2 the weight of the six cavity mould I had been using and that is MUCH appreciated. The six cavity mould weighs nearly five pounds and gets heavy entirely too quick to suit me.

FWIW
Dale53

[frankenfab]

Nice! I wish I could shoot like that! Someday, I will!

Not that I suck horribly....................

[sw282]

Dale-- l too love my #50 4cavity won off ebay. l cant imagine handling a heavier mold. lt squirts those 38 w/c bullets out like a spigot compared to my Lyman 2cavity. At least 3 times my old production rate. No beating on the mold, as they simply fall out the H&G. Almost no sizing required either. l cant wait to shoot some.

btw--Dale, what weapon are you using for those great 25yard groups ??

[Dale53]

sw82;
A couple of years ago, I found a nice 686 (6" barrel) at the Ohio Gun Collectors from an estate sale. However, when I got it home, it really had too much barrel cylinder gap. It wasn't horrible, but it DID spit a bit and all in all, it didn't make me happy.

I finally decided to do something about it. I took it to my local pistolsmith (Jack Basham of Cincinnati, Ohio). Jack set the barrel back with the barrel/cylinder gap at .002". He also re-reamed the forcing cone. It fairly transformed the gun. It no longer spits but most importantly, it SHOOTS!

It has become one of those revolvers that goes to the range with me nearly every time I go.

Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of it. It really is just an "ordinary" 686 (or was before Jack laid his hands on it) but it sure does shoot, now.

Dale53

[bowfin]

I would have bought the gun magazine that had this post as an article!

A great read!

[308Man]

A+ N Frame Poster Child!

[burntpowder]

Enjoyed your post. Had a fellow officer that also taught me about 2.7 grains of bullseye and the number 50 Hensley & Gibbs. Encouraged me to buy my first Star progressive loader (I have two Star progressive loaders) and Star lubersizer.I disagree with you about not sizing your bullets. Sized and lubed with mirror lube I regularly shoot out of an N- frame 6 inch into one to one and a half inches at 25 yards off sand bags and the Star lubersizer is not slow. I know a thousand bullets go through it pretty fast. It surprises me how quick they disappear. That same load will bounce beer cans at seventy-two one hunderd yards pretty regular. My carry gun is a model 19-3 in 357 magnum loaded with hundred and twenty five grain jacketed hollowpoints in a 38 plus P loading. That's the heaviest load I practice with in that model 19. I shoot a lot of 357 hundred and fifty eight grain semi wadcutter with a medium load of good ole twenty four hundred. I know it's probably not possible but I would love to shoot with you sometime. It sounds as if we would have some fun. I am a wheel gun lover. They shoot every time. Burnt Powder

[JIMinPHX]

Ed also tutored me. First was the mastery of tumble lubing with Lee Liquid Alox. All those years previously I had patiently used a Star Sizer with a .358” die to size and then lube those wadcutters, one at a time. Ed showed me how to lube hundreds of wadcutters in about two minutes and allow them to air dry in about a day or so. A vast improvement on my own laborious technique.


Would you mind expanding on this a little bit? Every person that I've seen tumble lube, did it a little differently. I'd be interested to hear the details of your method.

Thanks,
Jim

[bowfin]

I was fortunate enough to buy 39 boxes of Winchester-Western Super Match wadcutter ammunition for $6.26 a box. That should give me a lifetime's worth of brass.

Now all I need is a Manurhin MR73...

[Texasflyboy]

Would you mind expanding on this a little bit? Every person that I've seen tumble lube, did it a little differently. I'd be interested to hear the details of your method.

Thanks,
Jim

Here you go:

I am currently casting with two six-cavity Hensley & Gibbs moulds. One mould is the #50 Plain Base Button Tip Wadcutter, the other is the #68 Plain Base semi-wadcutter. I often cast with two six cavity moulds as its more efficient to use two moulds at once with my bottom pour pot. While one mould is cooling, I am working the other.

My Lee Liquid Alox Setup is this setup:


http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/11.jpg


Click for Larger Photo (http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/1.jpg)


The items are: A Folgers plastic coffee can (about 1lb of coffee), a metal vegetable can that tightly fits into the folgers coffee can, this is how the bullets are lubed. The two cans fit into each other and with the bullets and lube inside, the two cans are twisted and rotated to tumble the bullets and evenly coat with lube. I typically count "20" rotations, and then dump the bullets onto a cookie tray and set it in front of a box fan to dry. Ready to load in 24 hours.

I put the lee liquid alox bottle into a hot water filled detergent bottle when I start my casting session. Immersing the LLA thins it to allow it to pour and coat the bullets evenly. Typically, the LLA is ready to use in about 15 minutes after soaking in the homemade hot water bottle.

On to the LLA coating sequence:

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/22.jpg

Fill the plastic container about 1/2 full with unlubed bullets.

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/44.jpg

Add the lee liquid Alox to the bullets. I just guesstimate how much to use based on experience.

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/33.jpg

Fit the cans together into a tight seal.

Rock and twist the two cans together about 20 times to evenly coat the bullets:

Short movie: (~35MB AVI File):

Movie of Bullets being lubed (http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/bullets.AVI)

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/55.jpg

Pour onto a cookie sheet to dry. Spread evenly.

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/66.jpg

I typically shake the cookie sheet to spread the bullets out evenly to dry.

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/77.jpg

This is the sheet covered with both #50's and #68's.

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/12345/88.jpg

The final step is to set the trays out in front of a box fan to dry. Bullets are ready to load in 24 hours.

That's how I do it. There are other ways I am sure but this is the most efficient method for me.

[sw282]

Tx-Great "How To" post. Funny you would show 38 and 45 boolits together. l just scored on a 45acp H&G mold today off ebay, a #130 185gr swc 4 cavity. lt seem the most popular pdr charge for the #130 bullet is 3 1/2gr Bullseye too

[blaster]

I would have bought the gun magazine that had this post as an article!

A great read!

Yep. Better than most of the self-serving articlevertisments the rags are running. You should see if one will pick it up. Could pay for the next 50k?

[Raygun]

"75,000 Wadcutters in a Model 27"

...............Awesome!

[waco]

I have a 1968 smith 14-2
I pulled out my 148gr RCBS DEWC mould after reading this post.
I have yet to use this one, but after reading the thread, and posts, I got excited to Ty some full wad cutters. I am lacking the wad cutter brass, but have a few pounds of bullseye on hand.
My mold drops boolits right at .3585 with my alloy at 8BHN
Guess ill try just giving them some liquid Alox and 3.5 of t he bull and see how they shoot.
I can get 1.5" groups off a rest @ 25 yards with an RCBS 162gr GC over 3.2gr of titegroup.
Loved this thread. Makes me want to get out in the shop and lose myself for hours at the casting and reloading bench.
Waco

[MKT]

I had to smile while reading this whole thread as it mostly mirrors my own experience. I was fortunate as a teenager who was mentored by several "old hands" who were accomplished pistol shots.

I have, for some time, been using a six cavity H&G mould for the dbl ended W/C #251. Then a couple of months ago, on the Cast Bullet Assn Forum a gentleman offered a four cavity H&G mould complete with handles for the #50 BB W/C for a decent price. I ordered it out and it was, as described, in excellent condition. I ran off a couple thousand bullets and then sized/lubed them in my Star. They ran right at .358" and the .358 sizing die just "kissed" the bullets. Here is the results of my first outing with this bullet (standing at 25 yards):


http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/HG50BB-1402_900x1200.jpg

It is, indeed, a stellar bullet design from a great mould. The four cavity iron mould is only about 1/2 the weight of the six cavity mould I had been using and that is MUCH appreciated. The six cavity mould weighs nearly five pounds and gets heavy entirely too quick to suit me.

FWIW
Dale53

Dale,

I too have a 4 cav, 6 cav and 10 cav H&G #50 and prefer the 4 cav. The 6 cav throws a lot of bullets but gets heavy and blasts through a 10# pot pretty quick. The 10 cav, if I had a big enough pot (and arms) could really supply an army of shooters.

My question for you is about lubing a single groove, what is your reason?

I used to lube all three grooves but found that to "upset" the bullets at 50 yards. According to what I read it seem that lubing all the grooves throws the weight off a bit. I have been lubing only the lower two grooves starting last year and found they group tighter than the three groove lubing.

I just finished casting, sizing and lubing 1,000 38-150-KT that I started shooting in the service revolver matches in 2012. Once I load these I'll cast another 1,000 and be prepped for next years matches, once done with that I will start throwing some #50's to put some practice ammo together for my big gun (PPC) and am willing to give the single lube groove a try.

Thanks.

[Dale53]

MKT;
Back in the Seventies, E. H. Harrison of the NRA ran extensive machine rest tests to see what made accurate .38 wadcutters. He discovered that using a good lube, filling more lube grooves actually reduced accuracy. I ran my own limited tests with a Ransom Rest, later, and my findings agreed with his.

When the bullets were first designed most people thought that the more lube the better the bullet. This may have been a hold over from the black powder era. At any rate, using the NRA 50/50 lube, Harrison determined that "less is more". I use Carnauba Red, a very fine lube, and the same reasoning applies.

Many years ago, I, too, was a serious PPC shooter. We had a number of police departments in the area that were extremely good at the sport. In fact, my own hometown police dept. ended up National Champions at the time. The Chief was a Master Class pistol shot and HIGHLY encouraged his officers to shoot. My local club supported the police dept. efforts and ran many of the matches for them so all of their officers that cared to participate could.

Ah-h-h, those were the days...:drinks:

FWIW
Dale53

[fecmech]

MKT--I too played with my Ransom in the 70's and shot PPC. Lubing 1 groove was superior to 2 or 3 with the added bonus of a cleaner gun. The other thing I found out was that for the H&G #50 crimped in the groove, accuracy was better using 3.1-3.3 Bullseye (depending on the gun) over the 2.7-2.8 BE load that is quoted everywhere.

[MKT]

Dale & Fecmech, Thanks for the explanation.

I have a Ransom rest, but haven't run the cast WC from it, all of my testing has been by hand at the 50 yard line as a rough gauge. I have built ammo using the Remington HBWC that I can shoot as accurately as factory and figured I could do the same with cast. I haven't shot cast in a match yet though but I have practiced with the cast WC a lot from 25 and in trying to save my issued factory WC.

So far, with three grooves lubed, from the 50, they would hold 9 ring (but shot solidly at the 25). With two grooves lubed they shot tighter, but not quite a 10 ring group. This was using 3.3 gr Bullseye and/or 3.5 gr 231/HP38.

I think this off-season I will run off a batch of 3.3 BE and a batch of 3.5 231 made from two and one groove lube and run them from the Ransom. It is time I get serious about building some 50 yard ammo (heck, I build my own 9mm PPC ammo and have no qualms about shooting MY ammo at the Nationals, I should be able to do the same for the PPC revolver!).

I am using up my supply of Thompson's Blue Angel now and have just laid in a supply of Carnuba Red, so I should be good to go.

Thanks

[bbq223]

Great post!

[submoa]

Texasflyboy,
Nicely done.
I shot PPC competitively for many years as a memeber of a law enforcement agency team. Our standard load was either a factory WW .38spl wadcutter, or as some did, a reload that would match the factory wadcutter ballistics and accuracy. I routinely shot about a thousand rounds a week through my heavy barreled K frame S&W. I replaced the lockworks or parts thereof, several times. The barrels seem to shoot well, forever with that particular load but we would see some degradation in the forcing cone area, but only after thousands of rounds. We expected our revolvers to print in the 1 to 1.5 inch mark at 50 yards to be competitive. We shot at the standard B-27 targets from 7, 15, 25 and 50 yards. The top shooters were shooting in the 1480's (150 rounds x10 = 1500 possible) and it often took a 1490+ to win a match.The x and 10 ring gets pretty small at 50 yards so we did a lot of testing to figure out the best factory and handloads for the matches. Being the gunsmith of the bunch, I took it upon myself to built an ammo testing fixture, that consisted of a a fixed barrel on a bolt action rifle, chambered in .38 spl. and mounted to a large block of steel. It was sort of a rail type gun that weighed over 160 lbs. We found that the Winchester was generally the most accurate of the factory fodder and the the Remington 148 grain HBWC bullet over a proper charge of WW231, Unique, or Bullseye was the most accuate handload. The powder didn't seem to matter too much as long as it was consistant and we kept velocites under 750 fps. We generally used Winchester or Federal primers because they seemed to have the softest cup and were more reliable with our very light mainspring guns. We tried many of the loads with cast bullets but found we never got the accuracy the swagged HBWC's gave us. I loaded and shot thousands of rounds in the 70's and did manage to achieve Grandmaster and make the Governor's 20 for a few years. I had an old AMMOLOAD that would load approx 1000 rounds an hour if it didn't break, but it did break often. That game, plus the loading got to be a lot of work, so I eventually gave it up. I went to work for S&W in the early 90's and started shooting that old gun again with the same load. It still shot better than I could.
keep up the good practice and keep focusing on that front sight.

submoa

[Four Fingers of Death]

I bought a bunch of 38 Special Federal Premium Wadcutter loads and have fired a lot of them off. I kept them separate from the squillions of cases I have left over after shooting American Eagle LRN ammo. I'm glad I did now!

I have a 586 I bought in 1986. It was well worn and showed blooms on the cylinders, but was well tuned and a nice serviceable revolver. It was my only centrefire for a long time and when they opened up Lithgow Prison, I got a promotion to there, from Long Bay Prison. We formed a pistol club and it took forever to get the club approved, etc, etc. I was already a member of a pistol club in Sydney, so once a week for about six months, we drove to Sydney and 6-10 guys would queque up taking turns shooting the 586. You have to be a member of a pistol club in Australia to buy a pistol. I counted the boxes of cast bullets I bought off a friend and my casting records and the 586 has seen a similar number of rounds since I purchased it. It had seen plenty before as well.

Since I started shooting big bore single actions in cowboy action shooting, it hasn't seen much use.I must dust it off and put a breeze up the old girl's skirts. I have often been tempted to send it to S&W for a refit, it has one chamber slightly off the mark in the cylinder, but it still shoots like a dream.

The new 4" 686 SS revolvers that are being advertised are tempting, but as far as I'm concerned, a Smith has to be blued. I carried a Model 10 at work for 22+ years. I have a model 64 which is like a new pin and is virtually a SS Model 10, but I'd swap it in a heartbeat for a blued Model 10 in any sort of condition. Our ones at work were a special order 3" heavy barrel. These revolvers were poetry in motion. I saw a Highway Patrolman in use at the range today. These were as cheap as chips (no pun intended) some years ago and nooooooooooo, my mate doesn't want to sell it.

I love my Ruger Single actions in 357, 44Mag, 45Colt/ACP and my Pietta Colt Clones in 44/40, but the Smiths are really something special.

[gofastman]

How often does one clean a revolver that gets that volume of ammo through it?

[Four Fingers of Death]

How often does one clean a revolver that gets that volume of ammo through it?

Every blue moon, lol.

UPDATE: The 64 is gone and I now have a blued Model 10-5. Lots of holster wear, but pretty well minty inside! Shoots fine. My fellow retired Correctional Officer's are lining up for a shoot!

[GunFun]

It looks like you guys have a lot of years under your belts to match those round counts. I'm working to catch up. This thread was rather inspirational to me, and I started saving my primer sleeves. In the last year, I think I've made almost 4K 9mm for my own use, and used most of them.

It's also a pretty good way of tracking the cost offset of casting & reloading gear. I know my press payed for itself a long time ago.

I don't have a wheel gun, but a smith revolver is what I've always wanted. The 686+ appeals, but I know it's almost hard to shoot badly with any of the model 66s I've used. I like those better than the old style model 19 we bought for a friend's wedding.

I also think of this thread every time I see an H&G wadcutter mold on ebay. They always go for more money than I have though. I should probably spend some coin on a .357 before I spend close to $300 on a mold to feed it.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Ain't no mould made worth $300.

[GunFun]

I'm inclined to agree, but I've seen a few H&G 10 Cav units sell for close to that.

[alamogunr]

Try one of the Lee 6 cavity molds for wadcutters. I have a H&G 4 cavity wadcutter mold that I bought before they went out of sight but it is much heavier than a Lee 6 cavity. You can buy several Lee's for what you would probably pay for a H&G. If the Lee proves unsatisfactory, get one from Accurate.

[GunFun]

Thanks for the tips. I use Lee 6 cavs and have been happy with them. Truthfully, I wouldn't spend much more than the cost of those for anything other than a custom design. On the other hand, an H&G 10 cavity mold would hold it's value and allow for very rapid production. I think $120 could allow you to make a long lasting pile of bullets rapidly, and you could probably resell the mold for more than that price when you have "enough." I am planning to buy a magma caster and automate it some time in the future though. That would render all the fancy molds obsolete.

I don't want to thread jack this though. So more on the original topic. It isn't a classic smith, but I was watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbvEMAt44yY
and they mention a couple top level competitors putting more rounds through modern plastic guns in a single year than 75K. That's just staggering.

[Dframe]

The venerable H&G #50 and bullseye. A combination thats almost impossible to beat. I don't own an N frame in 36 calibre but I've fired many thousands of that same load in Pythons, Detective Specials, Cobras, Diamondbacks, and K frame S&Ws. Very informative post txflyboy. I'm quite certain I can't match you for round count, but my experiances are very similar to yours.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Sorry, I didn't realise you were talking about a 10 cavity gang mould. A quality mould like that I could see $300's worth.

[SSGOldfart]

MKT;
Back in the Seventies, E. H. Harrison of the NRA ran extensive machine rest tests to see what made accurate .38 wadcutters. He discovered that using a good lube, filling more lube grooves actually reduced accuracy. I ran my own limited tests with a Ransom Rest, later, and my findings agreed with his.

When the bullets were first designed most people thought that the more lube the better the bullet. This may have been a hold over from the black powder era. At any rate, using the NRA 50/50 lube, Harrison determined that "less is more". I use Carnauba Red, a very fine lube, and the same reasoning applies.

Many years ago, I, too, was a serious PPC shooter. We had a number of police departments in the area that were extremely good at the sport. In fact, my own hometown police dept. ended up National Champions at the time. The Chief was a Master Class pistol shot and HIGHLY encouraged his officers to shoot. My local club supported the police dept. efforts and ran many of the matches for them so all of their officers that cared to participate could.

Ah-h-h, those were the days...:drinks:

FWIW
Dale53
Didn't he also find tumble lubing was better than filling the groves of wad cutters?

[pbcaster45]

75,000 Wadcutter!? Holy Cow! I've got a new Clark PPC revolver coming in next week, I'll die of old age before I reach that number!

116181

[cpaspr]

As a result of this thread, I've started going through my .38 Special brass sorting out all of the wadcutter cases. I've notice two different styles. Some have a double cannelure as shown in the original post, and some have only a single cannelure, at the same spot on the case as the top line of the double cannelure cases. I've also noted some cases with cannelures between an eighth and a quarter of an inch from the mouth, but I'm not setting those ones aside.

Once I get them all sorted I'll need to get a wadcutter mold. Then I'll re-read this entire thread again for best practices.

[pbcaster45]

It seems like all the Federal .38 Special brass I've got is suitable for wadcutters.

[jell-dog]

I have done some "research" into "wadcutter brass" and posted a thread on THE HIGH ROAD.
I found the information I based my conclusions on from threads found here, BULLSEYEFORUM and THE HIGH ROAD.
I was looking for information on reloading for a Smith and Wesson Model 52, but the thread should be interesting to anyone looking into "wadcutter brass".
Enjoy!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760718

[skeettx]

I will not use nickle cases in my Colt Mid-Range Match 38 Special Auto.
The brass retards in the rings in the chamber better
Mike

[John Van Gelder]

I have always liked wacutters, at target velocities, they are much less destructive on edible small game than the HV .22lr. I have two different wad cutter molds, both Lyman molds the 358101 (77 gr.) and the 358495 (141 gr.) When I lived back east I almost exclusively used the 77 gr. mold for small game loads (4 gr. of BE). With that load and my 4" mod 28, and sometimes a Blackhawk .357, I killed a truck load of small game. That load was inexpensive, produced almost no wear on my guns, and had adequate accuracy for small game ranges.

75K rounds is pretty impressive, with target loads, you probably will not live long enough to wear out a gun.

[jonp]

I had one with the 6" barrel in the original blue box wrapped in the brown paper. Pristine condition but I thought it was too light for 357Mag loads so only shot it a couple of times and traded it for something else I just had to have. Never occurred to me to shoot 38sp through it for some reason. It's one of the very few guns I've had that I'd give an arm and a leg to get back.

[John Van Gelder]

Texasflyboy (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?559-Texasflyboy)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.png
Have you shot a lot of magnum loads through your 27 or is all of that gas cutting on the topstrap from your target loads ?

[Snow ninja]

Great post, thank you. This goes with what my grandfather taught me, there's nothing wrong with finding the perfect load, and then sticking with it. Sure, there's great fun in finding that load, but once you do, you don't have to keep experimenting. This is what it's all about, thank you again, great read. I'm saving it to show grandpa next time I see him.

[Ric-san]

Good info here, didn't know about the wadcutters brass...will now separate mine.

[Matt_G]

^^
Wish I had some to separate. :)

[jonp]

I separated mine and have a drawer full. I have not noticed any difference in accuracy in my Target Masterpiece.

[Thorsaxe]

This is a good reading, I've been looking at the 148gr Lee six cavity mold. do you guys have any recommendations?

[Thorsaxe]

Awesome Pistol. we have a guy that shoots bullseye with one of those on our league shoots.

[singleshot]

You know it was a good post when it continues on after 3 years.

[Matt_G]

This is a good reading, I've been looking at the 148gr Lee six cavity mold. do you guys have any recommendations?

Keep an eye out for a four cavity H&G 50 or a Lyman 358495.

Edit: Check your PM's

[cumminsnut76]

Thank you sir! Wonderful info

[MHL555]

Thanks, Great info.

[alamogunr]

It has been over 2 years since I last posted in this thread and I can add little to what has been posted since then. One thing I will say, the H&G 4 cavity #50 mold has gotten heavier since then. I made a mold guide that works wonders in long sessions.

I've got a couple of other WC molds that I want to try out. The last one I haven't cast with yet but looks promising, the MP Di Carli .359-148. Anyone have any experience with it?

[Outpost75]

I know Texas Flyboy and have handled and shot the gun. As far as I know he may have fired a few magnum rounds, but I would doubt any more than 1% of the total. I use the Saeco #348 double-end, bevel base wadcutter, same as described in the Ed Harris article on the Hensley & Gibbs web site and also on Grant Cunningham's blog. Great info!

BTW, you can outside neck turn new, uncannelured Winchester or Starline brass to 0.010" mouth and neck wall thickness to the seating depth of your wadcutter bullet, then uniform flasholes and primer pockets to make your own "wadcutter brass!"

[tazman]

I recently did some experimenting with my 38 specials and wadcutters using wadcutter brass.
I aquired some R-P wadcutter brass in enough quantity to make it worthwhile from a couple of members on this forum(thank you gentlemen). I loaded them with either 3.2 grains of Bullseye or 3.3 of WST under a 358495 Lyman boolit. I already had some mixed brass loaded with the same boolit and powders. Next stop, the indoor range.
I used my Smith&Wesson Target Masterpiece with a 6 inch barrel as my test gun. The cylinder throats and the forcing cone/barrel are perfectly set up for cast boolits. I shot from a handheld rest on sandbags. I had 50 rounds each of mixed brass with Bullseye and WST, 50 rounds wadcutter brass with Bullseye, and 50 rounds of wadcutter brass with WST.
After firing 6-12 round test groups all afternoon at varying distances to 25 yards, I found that the wadcutter brass gave me noticeably better groups than the mixed brass did. The wadcutter brass groups were consistently about 25% smaller than the mixed brass groups. Sorry, I didn't save the targets.
It didn't matter which powder was used. Both powders gave the same group size with the respective types of brass.
Now all I need to do is test a couple of different wadcutter styles to see if there is any consistent improvement depending on style of boolit. I have several to choose from.

[GooseGestapo]

Not trying to "one up" the original poster, but back in the early-mid '90's I shot extensively competing in PPC. Shot about 60,000rds a year for several years. Managed a few wins at the NPSC, (not the over all, though ) and a few national records. Took high conservation officer 4 times. Still have a record I shot in off duty that still stands if they haven't dropped the category.

Being unsupported and broke, I heavily depended on cast bullets for practice. I only shot hollow base wad cutters at the 50yd line in "big matches"; regionals or nationals. Preferred Star before they went out of business then went to custom ordering unlubed hollow base wad cutters and semi wad cutters from Precision Delta. Couldn't afford "factory" ammo for the distinguished matches so shot "Mexican" match.. Precision Delta SWC, in Precision Delta head stamped brass. (Starline). However, I tumble lubed the bullets and hand sized them carefully handling them to avoid damage, and tumble polished the loaded ammo. Passed inspection every time. Wasn't "cheating" as many others did likewise, and I used same powder charges as PD did in order to get the same superior results (HP38/231). Even occasionally used PD new, on the occasion that I'd win some in a match. I even once saw a Dillon 1000 set up at the MHP range loading 9mm; PD brass, Hornady XTP's, and Winchester primers, being loaded into new PD boxes... Even the big boys had to pinch penny's. Rules now allow any safe ammo. Courtesy of the shortages of '08 and '12.

My casting started with Lyman and Lee moulds in the '70's. However I was gifted a Saeco 4-cav double ended wad cutter mold in the mid '80's. It was well worn and though I reconditioned it, it still throws oversized bullets, but still have it. Mostly I used Lee 6-cav. (Worn out 2, on my 3rd). I repaid the owner, a gunsmith, for the mold and building a M98 sporter with two 5gal buckets of 150gr DEWC. He supplied the lead. He loaded them for a local PD as he had a Dillon and Star auto loaders and class 6 FFL, required at the time to sell reloads.

I picked up a bazillion Remington wad cutter brass. Winchester tended to vary more, and is/was thicker than the Remington. (Several of the federal agency teams got Remington on contract, and either gave me their brass or left it on the ground.. Ahhh, the good old days!). I still have several thousand rounds in 5gal buckets. (No, it AINT for sale!). Neither the several tons of wheel weights, scrap, and 200lbs of Linotype.

I prefer the K-frames, though my best record was with a 2.5" 686. I had a mod28 in college but "shot" it loose, with .357 cast SWC over heavy loads of #2400. I traded it for a Mod 19 that I carried for several years working for a PD. However, fianances dictated I traded it for something else I needed. My first PPC revolver was a heavily used Travis Strayhan build on a model 10 with a Mascot rib sight. Had it rebarreled twice, barrel set back and forcing cone recut several times. Twice because I bulged it shooting out squibs to avoid wasting $100 entry fee. Got away with it several times, too. First 1490, with a 240-12x match 3 was after I shot out a squib at the 7yd line in match 1! Btw. I was using 2.7gr Bullseye and cast for "short lines" and hbwc over 2.9gr of #231. Sorry, but I get slightly better accuracy from a slightly heavier charge of 231/HP38.
My current and probably last PPC revolver is a Model 10-6 I won at '96 NPSC. I by then had acquired the basic equipment and skill to install a Barnett pre-machined barrel and installed an Aristocrat rib. I shot several 1490's to include a 1493 in the '98 NPSC. shot a 240-14 in match 3, winning that match. "MONKEY" got on my back big time, dropped 6pts in match 4!. Shot a 599 in match 5 to finish with a 1493. Since '97when I built that gun, I've probably shot over 300,000rds through it, and it's on its third barrel. I've corrected it for end-shake a couple of times and when I do, it goes back to ~1.5" at 50yds with swaged hbwc, and closer to 2" with cast. I haven't bought-shot hbwc in over 10yrs. My Lee 148 DEWC sized to .358" in the Rem cases will do better than I can, now. I inherited 48lbs of Bullseye in '04, and it took me till '14 to shoot it up. I recently went back to #231 as 50yd testing indicated it still prefers 231.
My point is, it takes copious quantities of ammo to get "good". Only cast bullets and a truly great powder as efficient as Bullseye can deliver that economically.

Hard to beat Bullseye, however!!! Never could warm up to TiteGroup, WST, or Acc.#2, or any of the others to come along. RedDot, GreenDot, Unique, Herco, too course to be uniform from auto powder measures in pistol quantities.

Btw, I was in the gallery when Jerry Mickelet shot the 10-gun, 60 shot record that was taped at the 2004 NPSC. His load? You guessed! 148gr DEWC over 2.7gr BE. He said he loaded them hisself, on a Dillon press. He was using essentially box-stock Model 10's. He prefers heavy rebound springs just like Ed McGivern. Pushes his trigger finger back for faster recovery.
Now, you know the REST of the story!

[Four Fingers of Death]

That's a lot of lead downrange Goose! Great read. thanks.

[alamogunr]

Now I know why I will never be a great pistol shot. Started too late and probably wouldn't have done what was required if I had started in my teens.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Whether or not you end up as a star, it's all good fun with fine guns and roll your own ammo, very satisfying.

[Matt_G]

Thanks for posting that Goose.
I enjoyed reading it.
Great addendum to a great thread. :)

BTW, how long did it take you to cast 2 bucket fulls of DEWC's?
Holy smokes that's a lot of boolits...

[GooseGestapo]

Re: 2 buckets; about 220lbs; about 1hr per 20lbs in RCBS bottom pour pot (borrowed from gunsmith). Took 6 casting sessions over 3week period. Using two, Saeco four cavity molds. Still have one. I used Star lubrisizer at gs shop to size/lube. GS loaded them w/Dillon 1050 and sold to a couple of local PD's. After he got a job promotion with his day job (AL Marine Police, relocated 200miles away) I took over his ammo business obtaining a class6 ffl.

During peak shooting years, I'd spend 2-3hrs at a time, 2-3 times a week casting in a 10-14 utility building behind my house, dedicated to casting, loading, ect. By that time, I had/have two Lee Pro 4 casting pots, and a 10lb Production pot (small batches like hard rifle alloy). Not to mention the 100lb cap smelting pot I use on a fish cooker to melt w/w's and other scrap into ingots (I have 4 cast iron corn bread trays, makes ~1.5lb ingot 8-each). In late '80's to early mid-90's, I had class 1 and class 6 FFL. Relinquished them when fee went from $60 for three years to $500yr. Six months later, fee dropped back after lawsuit by firearms retailers assoc. McClure-Volkmer bill in '84 allowed interstate sales of reloading components by common carrier (UPS, FedEx) which allowed folks like MidwayUSA, GRAFS, ect to sell ship components. I never got ffl again. Used proceeds from commercial activity to fund my shooting...

[LAH]

Every time I roll by this thread it makes me smile. :)

[M-Tecs]

I refer this thread to the folks that claim they shot the barrel out on their 22 RF in 2,000 or 3,000 rounds.

[Patricklaw]

Well thanks for catching my attention. This is a great thread.

[220]

I refer this thread to the folks that claim they shot the barrel out on their 22 RF in 2,000 or 3,000 rounds.

Knew an old timer who shot out the barrel on his 22lr rifle, his estimate was somewhere around 250k rounds.
My 686 is some where past 50k target loads, I think its just starting to break in.

[Outpost75]

Rimfire barrels shoot out because ground glass is used to produce necessary friction within the primer mix to produce ignition upon impact. Glass isn't needed in centerfire primers because they contain an anvil.

Many years ago I was an active smallbore competitive shooter and shot with the likes of George Stidworthy, Lones Wigger, Pres Kendall, Maurice Kaiser and Mark Humphreville.

In the typical smallbore rifle match barrel a "frosty" spot begins to develop at the 6:00 position forward of the chamber at the origin of rifling starting at about 20,000 rounds. At the beginning this will not be apparent to the naked eye, but can be seen readily with an optical borescope. As firing continues the frosty spot widens and continues up the sides, until it eventually meets at the top, forming a ring. How soon this occurs depends upon the hardness of the barrel steel, the method of cleaning, and the flame temperature of powders used.

Most experienced smallbore shooters clean by simply pushing one wet patch through the bore to wet the fouling, keep it soft, and to push out any abrasive primer combustion products remaining in the bore. Before firing again, another wet patch is pushed through the bore to remove the residual soft fouling, then one or two dry patches. There is no reason to brush a .22 match barrel which is not leading.

If the barrel IS leading, it is because the erosion ring ahead of the chamber has progressed to the point where it affects accuracy. The point at which a barrel is set back and rechambered is not determined by the number of rounds, but upon grouping. If a prone rifle will no longer shoot shoot X-ring, ten-shot, 100-yard groups with scope using Eley Tenex or other ammunition of equal quality, it is time to rechamber, usually after 100,000 rounds, but a "hard" barrel, properly cleaned and maintained, and used with "cool" ammunition will last several times that. A 50-meter position rifle will maintain competitive accuracy for a longer time than a prone rifle. A soft stainless barrel is more prone to galling or cleaning rod damage and will go sour before a harder chrome-moly barrel.

In fitting .22 match barrels the barrel shank must be a "ring fit" in the receiver, capable of hand assembly when coated with a thin film of oil or anti-seize only. An interference fit will collapse the chamber, producing a "choke" which destroys accuracy. A barrel shank 0.0010" to 0.0015" smaller in diameter than the receiver hole is correct, coated with anti-seize compound, pressed and pinned in. Some 'smiths use service-removable locktite 242 on semi-auto rifles, like the Ruger 10/.22, but this is not necessary if the barrel is fitted properly. The breech face of semi-auto match pistols should be induction quench-hardened to prevent peening after being chambered.

[LAH]

Thanks Outpost.

[Frank V]

Came in late, but this is a great thread. I shot PPC in the 70s had a ball, won a few nothing major, but lots of fun.
My favorite gun became a S&W mod. 14. Started with a mod 19, but found the chambers on the mod 14 were unchamphered & therefor loaded wadcutters more smoothly.

[jeepyj]

This was one of the first threads I read when I first joined the forum and probably still one of my favorites.
Jeepyj

[Frank V]

I'm staying tuned, thanks for the info in target .22s Outpost75!

[flyin brian]

Amazing. It seems I have a LONG ways to go!!

Thanks for sharing your story.

[Frank V]

Amazing. It seems I have a LONG ways to go!!

Thanks for sharing your story.

Not so long to go, just keep shooting those wadcutters.
Wadcutters will do a lot of what needs doing with the .38 Special.
I've shot them out too 100yds & a bit farther, they were still accurate but I'll bet velocity was falling off drastically.
They are loads of fun & very accurate.

[happie2shoot]

Now I know why I will never be a great pistol shot. Started too late and probably wouldn't have done what was required if I had started in my teens.


Many people can become a great shooter very fast if they get started right.

The first thing is get the proper training before you learn bad habits.

I shot on a pistol team in the army forty years ago, the ones that listened to
the teachers in class usually shot the best and learn much quicker.

I did not listen as good as I should have but did learn later what it takes,
we shot NRA Bullseye, Leg matches and the CG matches.

I did get a first in the division once with the 1911.

http://competitions.nra.org/how-to-get-started/conventional-pistol-competition.aspx

Everybody is different and some will never be above average and some
will get very good very fast.


My shooting instructor told us that we are better off just shooting ten good shot
a day, applying all the fundamentals than 100 bad shots.

One thing that really helps is dry firing at a white wall in your house with nothing on it,
NO TARGET, just focus on the front sight, sight alignment, and trigger pull and watch
for sight movement when the trigger breaks. If the front sight moves in the rear
notch you need much more practice. If you learn this before you ever fire a shot you
will get good fast.

Oh yea, the shot needs to be a surprise, slow and constant trigger pull helps.

Remember some will never get very good, like me and this computer.

I did not read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been said.


Also there are ways to easily fix a shot out barrel on a 22lr, many you don't even
need to take off the barrel, I have done around eight hundred of them, did not
test all of them but some would do 1\2'' at fifty yards five shot groups.

I had a manufacturing license years ago.

[Frank V]

Coming back to this thread, one of my favorite loads is a good 148gr WC over 2-1/2grs of Bullseye. It's a light load but very accurate, & easy on the gun & shooter. I've taken a LOT of small game with this load & keep coming back to it. I'm really enjoying this thread too & will keep coming back to read the adventures of others.
Good shooting everyone.

[LAH]

Frank do you have a favorite WC bullet?

[Frank V]

LAH, I use one from the Lee mold. The Lee mold actually casts a pretty good bullet. I have found most any good wadcutter will shoot well though. I am fond of the Lee mold they come to temp. quickly & if you don't cast too fast remain at proper heat very well. Usually I'll use two molds rotating them as I cast so they don't get too hot. That seems to work well for me. My Wife got me a Lee .38 158gr SWC GC mold for Christmas & I need to order some GCs to use it. It throws a pretty bullet too.
Hope this helps some.
If you are not casting Hornaday offers a swaged WC bullet that looks pretty good & should shoot well. I don't run any of them much beyond 800fps.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I used a Lyman single cavity 148Gn (I thnk that was the weight) Button Nosed Wadcutter many years back for Service Pistol Competition (similar to PPC). They worked a treat, but were painfully slow to cast, haha.

I have used a packet or two of the Hornady wadcutters and they worked well, as did the packet of Speers that were on special some time ago. They were always very expensive here, but I noticed that the Speer wadcutters were selling very cheaply recently.

[LAH]

Frank I'm using a button nose WC, H&G 50. The mould I have will make a pile in a hurry but it sure is heavy.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04562.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04562.jpg.html)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04564.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04564.jpg.html)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04579.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04579.jpg.html)

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a Lyman 4 cavity mould that I had forgotten about until I saw your post. It is heavy, so I can imagine how heavy the 6 cavity mould is.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Handguns/20170116_114602_zpsjrrteblk.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/4fingermick/media/Handguns/20170116_114602_zpsjrrteblk.jpg.html)

I haven't used it yet as I was gifted a few thousand 38 Wadcutter reloads from another armourer who has pulled the pin.

[alamogunr]

I've got the 4 cavity version of the H&G 50 and it was heavy enough that I made a guide from a 2X6 with a strip of micarta mounted on it so the handle screws straddled the micarta. No way was I going to try to handle that iron on the dinky Pro Melt guide.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Good idea, I use angle iron and star posts for most of my mods.

[Frank V]

Frank I'm using a button nose WC, H&G 50. The mould I have will make a pile in a hurry but it sure is heavy.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04562.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04562.jpg.html)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04564.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04564.jpg.html)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04579.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/Creekerpics/media/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/HG%2050/DSC04579.jpg.html)


Wow those are nice looking bullets, the four cavities are heavy, can't imagine a six cavity.
Good shooting.

[skeettx]

HEAVY??
How about working a tandem of 10 Cavity H&G matched moulds
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-070S.JPG

[Four Fingers of Death]

That's a job for Popeye and a tin of Spinach!

[LAH]

The mould belonged to a now deceased WV State Trooper. I've learned to handle it but it's still heavy.

[LAH]

HEAVY??
How about working a tandem of 10 Cavity H&G matched moulds
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-070S.JPG

That's how you make production.

[Dale53]

I have been shooting more .38 wadcutters, these days, than anything else. I have a six cavity original H&G for the #251 dbl.ended w/c. The mould drops bullets like rain but, these days, it is so heavy (nearly five pounds), that it takes some of the fun away.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/HG50BB-1402_900x1200.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/HG50BB-1402_900x1200.jpg.html)

A couple of years ago, I bought a four cavity H&G #50 BB wadcutter which also casts beautifully. Using my standard alloy (WW's + 2% tin), they fall from the mold a near perfect .358". My Star sizer just barely touches them (just enough to not leak lube past the grooves). You could hardly ask for better. The weight, compared to the six cavity mold, is enough lighter to enable me to cast with MUCH pleasure.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/HG50BB-1399_1600x1200.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/HG50BB-1399_1600x1200.jpg.html)

The two bullet designs shoot equally well (less than 1" at 25 yards off a rest, on demand).

I have done a good bit of edible small game hunting, and often, the "Full Charge" wadcutter (3.5grs. of Bullseye or equivalent) has often been my preferred choice. It hits hard, and with suitable choice of aiming point on the game (close ones get a head shot, further ones, "through the slats") it is "down right there". VERY satisfying and the family always appreciated small game without having to pick shot out of their teeth.

Dale53

[LAH]

Dale your pictures are always nice.

[Dale53]

LAH;
thanks for the kind words.

Boy, I really did a bummer. I posted almost the same thing two years ago. It's "heck" to get old...[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

But, this IS a great thread and I guess I just got carried away.:drinks:

Dale53

[LAH]

Yes a great thread & the OP no doubt is a good shot by now.

[Frank V]

Now you guys have me wanting to grab my poor old double cavity Lee mold & get after it.
WCs are a lot of fun as well as an exellent small game bullet.

[Petrol & Powder]

Every now and then I come back to this thread and re-read it.

Each time I read this thread it brings a smile to my face and I glean a little more information.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Now you guys have me wanting to grab my poor old double cavity Lee mold & get after it.
WCs are a lot of fun as well as an exellent small game bullet.

HaHa, I have an old single cavity Lyman wadcutter mould, it is as slow as a wet weekend, but the boolits are accurate an cut nice, neat holes.

[Clovis]

Inspirational!

[arlon]

I have a 27-2 5" that hasn't been to a range in 10 years or so. I'd sort of forgotten about it. I'm inspired to dig it out. Also have the old 4 cavity Lyman button nose wadcutter mould and a container of Bullseye... All I need is a little more time.

[Matt_G]

The 358495 is a great boolit.
I found that 3.5 grs of Bullseye is THE load in my K-38 and 14-3 Smiths.

[MG08]

I know this is an old thread, but was just referenced on another board. Really good info - I have been loading and shooting 38s for years, and recently got the Smith Model 52. I was not aware that the double cannalure brass was "wadcutter" brass. I will have to try it out. I managed to get a Smith 38/44 a few years ago, and it is a tack driver with SWC 158 gr. 25 yd shots are easy, but I also shoot hand gun out to 50-75 yds so longer range shooting does not surprise me. The Model 52 is also incredibly accurate and soft shooting.

[Char-Gar]

I know this is an old thread, but was just referenced on another board. Really good info - I have been loading and shooting 38s for years, and recently got the Smith Model 52. I was not aware that the double cannalure brass was "wadcutter" brass. I will have to try it out. I managed to get a Smith 38/44 a few years ago, and it is a tack driver with SWC 158 gr. 25 yd shots are easy, but I also shoot hand gun out to 50-75 yds so longer range shooting does not surprise me. The Model 52 is also incredibly accurate and soft shooting.

All double cannalure brass is wadcutter brass, but not all wadcutter brass has double cannalures.

[dg31872]

Okay, the double cannulure is the mark of WC brass, but not all wadcutter brass has double cannalures.
Then what are other ways you can distinguish WC brass from common brass?

[Outpost75]

Use a tubing micrometer and measure wall thickness at mouth and again 1/2" down the case. If the two measurements are THE SAME and 0.010" or less, it is wadcutter brass.

If the case wall is thicker thicker than 0.010 it is "service load" brass with thicker case wall which is necessary to provide heavier bullet pull required to produce acceptable ballistic uniformity with jacketed bullets of smaller diameter than .358".

[arlon]

Use a tubing micrometer and measure wall thickness at mouth and again 1/2" down the case. If the two measurements are THE SAME and 0.010" or less, it is wadcutter brass.

If the case wall is thicker thicker than 0.010 it is "service load" brass with thicker case wall which is necessary to provide heavier bullet pull required to produce acceptable ballistic uniformity with jacketed bullets of smaller diameter than .358".

Good info. Thanks. Wish starline or someone similar would make a run of 38 SPCL WC headstamped brass to the WC spec. I'd be good for a thousand cases or two.

[Outpost75]

Starline .38 Special ordinary brass met these specs last time I bought any.

No need for any special run or headstamp. BUT you do need to measure as I'm not sure that all of their .38 Spl. is this way.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Starline .38 Special ordinary brass met these specs last time I bought any.

No need for any special run or headstamp. BUT you do need to measure as I'm not sure that all of their .38 Spl. is this way.

You just sold a thousand rounds of that brass. Contact them for your commission check.

[6GUNSONLY]

I bought a big stash of .38 wadcutter brass awhile back, I think about 1200 rounds all in original boxes, about half is Peters and half Western. I'm shopping for a wadcutter mold now. I have 500 factory swaged bullets to get started but want to cast my own. Got about 400 lbs of pure lead for starters. These will feed my two N-frames, a 28-2 4" and a 6" pre-27. Thanks for the great informative article!

[DerekP Houston]

I bought a big stash of .38 wadcutter brass awhile back, I think about 1200 rounds all in original boxes, about half is Peters and half Western. I'm shopping for a wadcutter mold now. I have 500 factory swaged bullets to get started but want to cast my own. Got about 400 lbs of pure lead for starters. These will feed my two N-frames, a 28-2 4" and a 6" pre-27. Thanks for the great informative article!

I've been more than pleased with my rcbs 2 cavity 148gr wadcutter, I upgraded to a 6 cavity hg 50 and shoot the crud out of my 38s.

[Shumkles]

Very nice post. I just bought a Smith and Wesson revolver I intend to shoot a lot. You have inspired me to keep track of how many rounds I actually shoot. Thanks

[Petrol & Powder]

All double cannalure brass is wadcutter brass, but not all wadcutter brass has double cannalures.

That's like the old "All Bourbon drinkers are Whiskey drinkers but not all Whiskey drinkers are Bourbon drinkers".

[Crash_Corrigan]

All this talk about wadcutters has prompted me to dig out my .41 cal 4 hole brass hollowbase wadcutter mold I bought a few years ago. I have yet to try it out. I have a Smith Model 57 with a 4"tube that needs to be exercised. It should be a ton of fun with some wadcutters and a small charge of powder at my steel targets.

[pbcaster45]

Well... since this thread is still active!

This is about the best I can do offhand anymore with my +60 year old eyeballs And yes, I cheated and used swaged Speer Boolits!

Sizer Die: Lee Undersized .38 Super Die
RCBS Wadcutter Expander Die
C-H Wadcutter Seating Die
RCBS .38 Special Taper Crimp Die

Bullet: Speer 148 gr. HBWC
Powder: Alliant Bullseye 2.8 grs.
Primer: Federal 100 Small Pistol
Case: Federal .38 Special
LOAL: 1.155

Forgot to pack tools to adjust the sights... but I was close! Six shots at 25 yards with a Clark PPC Revolver.

209487

[GLShooter]

I have a Model 10 PPC gun build by Royce Weddle for me back in 1980. He was US PPC champion and a noted shooter/gunsmith of the day from Norman, Oklahoma. It wears a Douglas balnk and an Aristocrat rib.

I really wanted to win the stae championship for unclassified shooters. I practiced a tad. I shot twenty one days straight. Rounds per day were 1000 and I reloaded another 1000 every evening. Star bullets and 2.7 of BE in WW WC brass. I won that year (1980).

The next year I didn't have enough time so I only shot 18,000 rounds in 18 days. I won that year.

Year #3 found me at the range again and I only had 15 days to practice. I was heavily involved in IPSC/USPSA also and was gearing up for the US Nationals that year with them. I shot 15,000 rounds in practice that year. Thank goodness for my Dillon 300!! I won that year.

Since then I've put another few thousand down the tube well in excess of 75,000 by now. The action is like butter ad the X-ring is still not too small at 50 with it. My one 38 Special press has not had anything changed in almost 40 years and still going strong.

I suppose I'll die with that one still punching nice groups. As much as it surprises me doing the math I have a 1911 with easily that many down the tube built by John Nowlin years ago. Lead doesn't wear much and lube and springs has kept that one tight and accurate. I have a Frankenberg built 9X21 with close to 50,000 through it too.

Greg

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I bought a box of 500 Speer lswc after checking their diameter (1.58) and I have been loading them with titegroup for my 5" 27. Nice target load and no leading. Standing on the edge of a gravel road by some logged off woods, just shooting off hand at 50' or so at a paper plate stapled to a dead tree. Got that 27 20 yrs. ago used for $325 and it looked unfired. The hand cut checkering on the top strap and incomparable bluing job, tapered barrel and butter smooth action are priceless really.

[sw282]

This is a ''timeless'' thread. My S&W Model 14-1 loves Bullseye and 38 wad cutters from a #50 H&G 4cavity mould. A 4'' Model 19 too. As l get older l don't even bother casting unless its with a Hensley&Gibbs mould.
That applies to ANY caliber!

[Outpost75]

Agree this thread is timeless. Interesting to note that popular wisdom is that wadcutters won't group at ranges past 50 yards. This might be true with S&W 18-3/4" twist barrels and factory-equivalent target loads with 2.7-3.0 grains of Bullseye using soft-swaged 148-grain HBWC bullets from Speer, Hornady, Precision Delta, Star, 3D, etc.

However... my friends and I are shooting "full charge" wadcutters, assembled with 3.2 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup, with the REMINGTON 148-grain HBWC bullets, assembled in new Starline brass with Remington 1-1/2 primers, flush seated at 1.16" OAL and separately roll crimped and profiled using the Redding profile crimp die as the last station on the Dillon RL550B. I load mine similarly on Star machine.


We are shooting these in Colt Officers Model Match 14" twist, several Clark-Ruger PPC guns with 12" and 14" twist barrels, as well as a Giles wadcutter gun and a couple British .360 Rook rifles re c hambered with a .38 AMU reamer. We are shooting revolver matches on a 12" steel gong at 100 yards, and rook and rabbit rifle matches also at 100 yards on a steel groundhog 10-1/2" high and 4" wide. All iron sights, great fun!

[Matt_G]

^^
Sounds like you guys are having a GRAND time!

[Char-Gar]

Yep, push a WC bullet faster than 650-700 fps target load and it will remain stable even in a Smith and Wesson. I load a solid base wadcutter in the .357 case, over 10/2400 in my Combat Magnum. It will shot small groups as far as I can hit anything.

[Outpost75]

^^
Sounds like you guys are having a GRAND time!

Yes we are! We got our AR500 3/8" thick groundhog and bunny wabbit targets and stands from:

Calvin D. Byers
Quality Targets Inc.
305 N. Maple St.
Iola, Illinois 62838
www.qualitytargets.com
Phone: 618-245-6515
Fax: 618-245-2591

$75 each plus shipping on 5/8” round rod frame. Pictures below.

223340223341223342

[Chad5005]

I have enjoyed the original posted and most of the replies to it,great sight for learning

[Crash_Corrigan]

OK, I read the article and all the following posts and now I have 5 Gallons on .38 brass to sort through. I will sort out the wadcutter brass for further use.

I had gone to my local range (DesertSportsman Rifle & Pistol Club) one late afternoon during the week and whilst dragging all my range stuff from my car to the shooting line I noticed a five gallon bucket with a sign on it. I looked closer and it read "My sight is so bad that I can no longer enjoy shooting and reloading. So I am giving away all my reloading and shooting equipment. These .38's are some of the thousands of empties that I no longer need. Enjoy them all." The plastic pail was heavy but I managed to drag it to my car and tote it home.

I had been neglecting my beloved Smith 586 as I was shooting mostly 9 MM and 45 ACP and some rifle calibers for the last few years. Along came a Model 57 Smith and it was .41 Magnums. So I went back to the .38's. I had a Taurus Model 85 in SS with a snubbie barrel and I practiced until I could group 5 shots inside a 4 inch circle at 40 yds. Then I bought another 586 for my wife. She loved my 6" 586 so I found another for her on the interweb.

It turned out to be a 8 3/4" tubed Smith 586 6 shooter that seemed to have been a safe queen and not fired much at all. The finish is flawless with not a bit of worn bluing anywhere. I am not sure if someone worked over the action or not but this Smith has a buttery smooth double action and a very crisp and has a light single action trigger pull. The wife does not like it because of the long barrel and the weight forwards tires out her hands too much.

She would rather shoot the Ruger BH w/4 5/8 bbl or my beloved 586. I compromised and bought her a Charter Arms Patriot in 327 Fed Mag calibre and it is now her carry gun. She loves the light weight and low recoil. I love the terminal ballistics of those 100 gr HP rounds and the general shootability of that round. I even bought one for myself. A Lipsey's special Ruger BH in ss w 5/5" bbl and an 8 shot cylinder. It is large but very accurate and a blast to shoot.

Now I need to hunker down and cast some HB wadcutters and wring out the long barreled 586. I expect good results.

[Drm50]

I have read some of the posts here time to time, but I'm the chorus. I got heavy into Target guns
in early 70s. I had them all. The beating I take from guys that know me is that I got rid of Pythons
and Diamondbacks and some of the Officiers Model Colts and kept the S&Ws. The hacking I think
comes from the prices Colts are bringing. Sure I would like to have them back, to sell now for big
bucks. I will still stick with my S&Ws for shooting purposes. To me the 27 is the Cadillac of 357s.
I have never seen an article titled 75,000 Wad Cutters out of my Python. It ain't going to happen.

[15bobcat]

I just finished reading this article and all posts to it. It brought back good memories from long ago. I didn't realize that double cannelure brass had thinner walls for wadcutters. I started shooting Bullseye Pistol in 1964 when I turned 21, and got my pistol permit. The first handguns that I bought was a new Python 6" for $125.00, and an S&W K22 Masterpiece 6" used but not abused. As time passed, I got an S&W M52, an Alvan Dinan built M1911 45ACP W/ "DINAN" stamped on the bushing. Years later there was a brief article on him in the American Rifleman.

I joined a Rifle and Pistol club that shot one night a week during the school year at the local Police range in the basement of the High School. Behind the shooting positions were drums of water and crackers, a leftover from the duck and cover days of the 50's.

I used to shoot civilian class in a few of the Police Bullseye matches where Austin Behlert had a table set up and would tune the trigger pull on your revolver between matches for a small fee. Like most people my age, the eyes aren't like they used to be, and most of my mentors have long since made the journey to Heaven's range.


My load for 38 Spcl target shooting has been Lyman 358495 over Bullseye 2.5 Gr. using mixed brass. Like others who have read this article, I am going to go through my pile of brass to sort out the double cannelures.


I want to thank TexasFlyBoy for writing an outstanding article, and all of the other posters for sharing their knowledge to this thread.


-Harold

[Outpost75]

I have handled and inspected Texas Flyboy's Model 27 and can attest from my own observation that it is all true.

[LAH]

Took the time to read Texasflyboy's post again from June 13, 2012. Nothing like shooting the same sixgun over & over. You learn it better than the back of your hand. And I think 10,000 rounds in one sixgun is a bunch. Thanks for the sharing your experience.

[cast1]

Great Thread!!!! Read the whole thing and learned a lot! Thank you!!!!!

[DGV]

Has Mihec made a copy of H&G 50? Could it be done? Question answered! MP makes a H&G copy in Hollow base or solid base. Does anyone have any experience with this particular MP mold?

[Rubino1988]

That is a good looking round

[ripper90]

What makes the wadcutter brass more accurate than any of the other 38 Special brass?
Ripper90

[Outpost75]

What makes the wadcutter brass more accurate than any of the other 38 Special brass?
Ripper90

Uniformity of mouth wall thickness not exceeding 0.010", and body wall not becoming tapering thicker until depth approximates the location of bullet base when sesated, for most wadcutters about 0.50" +/-

Use a tubing micrometer to sort, or the easy answer is to just buy Starline which comes that way!

[tazman]

Uniformity of mouth wall thickness not exceeding 0.010", and body wall not becoming tapering thicker until depth approximates the location of bullet base when sesated, for most wadcutters about 0.50" +/-

Use a tubing micrometer to sort, or the easy answer is to just buy Starline which comes that way!

Outpost75 is correct. That said, the wadcutter brass is usually only more accurate when using full wadcutter boolits loaded flush with the mouth of the case. For other boolits, it doesn't seem to make much if any difference since they aren't loaded deep enough in the case to make that thin wall necessary.

[alamogunr]

I've got quite a bit of .38 brass. I just checked some that I picked up about 6 mo. ago. It is all over the place, plain, nickel plate and double cannelure wad cutter. I also found some that had one cannelure located about ¼" from the mouth. From what I have read on this thread, the cannelure on this brass is too close to the mouth to be "wadcutter" brass. The brass with 2 cannelures has the top cannelure about 7/16" from the mout. I haven't used the tube mic on any of this to confirm measurement(per Outpost75) for it to be wadcutter brass.

I'm not overly concerned about it since at my age, I'm too old to be able to shoot(practice) enough to develope enough skill to be able to discern the difference in accuracy between wadcutter brass and regular brass. I will probably still sort out the wadcutter brass and hold it back for awhile. No sense using it up until(if) my skill level improves to the point I can show consistant improvement.

[tazman]

I've got quite a bit of .38 brass. I just checked some that I picked up about 6 mo. ago. It is all over the place, plain, nickel plate and double cannelure wad cutter. I also found some that had one cannelure located about ¼" from the mouth. From what I have read on this thread, the cannelure on this brass is too close to the mouth to be "wadcutter" brass. The brass with 2 cannelures has the top cannelure about 7/16" from the mout. I haven't used the tube mic on any of this to confirm measurement(per Outpost75) for it to be wadcutter brass.

I'm not overly concerned about it since at my age, I'm too old to be able to shoot(practice) enough to develope enough skill to be able to discern the difference in accuracy between wadcutter brass and regular brass. I will probably still sort out the wadcutter brass and hold it back for awhile. No sense using it up until(if) my skill level improves to the point I can show consistant improvement.

That's how I felt about it too, right up until I did a test with the wadcutter brass. I found that when using full wadcutters in wadcutter brass as opposed to mixed brass, my group sizes shrunk noticeably.
As in down to three inch groups from nearly four inch groups at the yardage I normally practice. I loaded both batches the same day and shot them the same day just to have a fair test.
I tried the same thing with standard SWC and RN boolits and found no difference to speak of. It did work with the full wadcutters though.

[35remington]

In the FWIW department, 75000 148 grain wadcutters equates to around 1,586 lbs of lead

[Outpost75]

In the FWIW department, 75000 148 grain wadcutters equates to around 1,586 lbs of lead

Yup, one night's production for Texas Flyboy's Magma machine. No brainer.

[Mk42gunner]

Having finally outgrown my "more power is better" phase, thanks to a couple of .32 S&W Long I frames, I finally got a couple of real .38 Special target revolvers to practice with. A six inch Colt Officer's Model Match with the high thumb rest stock, and an 8 3/8" S&W K-38, Model 14-4.

The Colt has what is quite possibly the best single action trigger I have ever felt, double action not so much. The S&W may need a little smoothing, but I am going to put a few (hundred, thousand??) rounds down range before I make that decision.

I had been thinking of getting one of Lee's 125 or 158 RF six cavity molds, but after finally reading this thread in its entirety; I think I am going to go with their 148 WC and tumble lube. I will try both Bullseye and 231, hopefully both guns will like the same load. W231 has been my historical favorite powder for generic pistol loads from .38 to .45, so we will see.

Speaking of seeing, I can actually see the sights clearly on both of these guns. That doesn't happen often anymore.

Robert

[FredBuddy]

My second read of this entire thread.

Sometime back, I sorted my brass and have about
200 pieces of wad cutter stuff.

I got a NOE mould, made a batch and powder
coated some.

So far tried some with Unique and Red Dot
with Red Dot the better, and only tested
in a Colt and Ruger snubbie.

Gotta load some more up for the
686 and the 27-2 .............

[Outpost75]

You just sold a thousand rounds of that brass. Contact them for your commission check.

I was told by one of the tech support fellows at Starline that "the boss man" gleans tidbits of tech-intel from various firearm blogs and websites, that he read this thread, and afterwards (about a year ago) revised their specs for ordinary .38 Special brass.

If you need thick-walled .38 Special brass to maintain adequate bullet pull with .357" diameter J-words, then you should buy the +P headstamped .38 Special brass for assembling your "barrel polluter" loads.

[Outpost75]

Popular wisdom is that .38 wadcutters don't provide linear dispersion in proportion to the range beyond 50 yards or so. This is true with the slow 18-3/4" twist S&W barrels firing light factory wadcutters, but ain't necessarily so in fast-twist PPC guns firing full charge loads with cast wadcutters.

A fellow named Bill Duncan, who lives in Alaska published an article in The Fouling Shot a year or so back, in which he tested full-charge wadcutters in his ten-inch twist Bob Day PPC gun at 200 yards, using a scoped revolver to aim at a highly elevated aiming point and dropping rounds in plunging fire through the target, making highly acceptable groups.

He's planning a followup firing some of my Saeco #348, double-end, bevel-based wadcutter bullets cast from 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals. Stay tuned.

[45DUDE]

My boolit looks the same loaded as post #1 but I am using 3.7 of American Select over Bullseye and sizing on a Star lube sizer with an H&G mold. What are the better 10 shot groups at 25 yards people are shooting with a wheel gun with open sights? <OLD THREAD STILL ALIVE but I didn't dig it up. I am into bench shooting every week. I have a case of wad cutter brass once fired in original Winchester boxes sitting on the shelf but haven't found the need for it.

[Mk42gunner]

So a Colt with its 14" twist, IIRC, should do better at longer ranges than a S&W because of projectile stability, right? Maybe not to 200 yards, but it is something more to try.

Robert

[tazman]

Popular wisdom is that .38 wadcutters don't provide linear dispersion in proportion to the range beyond 50 yards or so. This is true with the slow 18-3/4" twist S&W barrels firing light factory wadcutters, but ain't necessarily so in fast-twist PPC guns firing full charge loads with cast wadcutters.

A fellow named Bill Duncan, who lives in Alaska published an article in The Fouling Shot a year or so back, in which he tested full-charge wadcutters in his ten-inch twist Bob Day PPC gun at 200 yards, using a scoped revolver to aim at a highly elevated aiming point and dropping rounds in plunging fire through the target, making highly acceptable groups.

He's planning a followup firing some of my Saeco #348, double-end, bevel-based wadcutter bullets cast from 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals. Stay tuned.

Now that is interesting.
The popular wisdom also believes the button nose wadcutter is slightly more aerodynamic than the flat faces double end wadcutters. That test would be interesting to see the results.

At my skill level, I have no business shooting at anything with a handgun beyond 50(probably closer to 25) yards, scoped or not, but lots of people are much better than I am. Still good knowledge to have.

[Outpost75]

Now that is interesting.
The popular wisdom also believes the button nose wadcutter is slightly more aerodynamic than the flat faces double end wadcutters. That test would be interesting to see the results.

At my skill level, I have no business shooting at anything with a handgun beyond 50(probably closer to 25) yards, scoped or not, but lots of people are much better than I am. Still good knowledge to have.

Yes! The reason Bill wanted some of my Saeco #348 to try is because they are flat-faced, double-end, bevel-based and he wanted to compare them against the H&G #50 with the button nose. Great minds think in the same track. You get gold star to stick on your forehead!

[Char-Gar]

I was told by one of the tech support fellows at Starline that "the boss man" gleans tidbits of tech-intel from various firearm blogs and websites, that he read this thread, and afterwards (about a year ago) revised their specs for ordinary .38 Special brass.

If you need thick-walled .38 Special brass to maintain adequate bullet pull with .357" diameter J-words, then you should buy the +P headstamped .38 Special brass for assembling your "barrel polluter" loads.

Within the last two months I bought 1K Starline 38 Special +P brass, because it was available and the standard brass was not. Their website said, it was just the same as the standard brass with the exception of the headstamp. So, two minutes ago, I fished one out and ran my Starrett adjustable hole gage into it to see how long the straight sides were before there was a inside taper.

Sure enough the +P brass is just like the standard with the long straight wadcutter style internal dimensions.

[Outpost75]

Thanks for that clarification. I had old info.

[45DUDE]

[QUOTE=Mk42gunner;5184664]So a Colt with its 14" twist, IIRC, should do better at longer ranges than a S&W because of projectile stability, right? Maybe not to 200 yards, but it is something more to try.

Robert[/QUOT ---- I have a model 19-3 with a 1 in 14'' and my shooting buddy has a model 27 hb with 1 in 14''. I saw him shoot a 1.3'' 10 shot bench with open sights at 25 yards last week with one out a little using an Xtreme plated 148 dewc with 38 brass. His 1 in 14'' groups better than his 1 in 10''. xxxxxx<I measured some military head stamp brass last night and they were .003 thicker>While WE WERE AT IT we checked the speed and the plated 148 dewc was almost 100 fps slower than a lead dewc with the same load.

[tazman]

Yes! The reason Bill wanted some of my Saeco #348 to try is because they are flat-faced, double-end, bevel-based and he wanted to compare them against the H&G #50 with the button nose. Great minds think in the same track. You get gold star to stick on your forehead!

I am definitely interested on the results of that test.
And thanks for the gold star.

I did some computations last night on how fast you need to push a boolit in a slower twist barrel in order to get the same spin rate(RPM) as the faster twist with a slower muzzle velocity. At some point it gets kind of ridiculous. You would need to use a full power 357 mag load to get the same RPM as the fast twist barrel in a 38 special target load.
Kind of counter productive for most target uses, but it does explain why full power loads tend to be more accurate at distance than slower cartridges.

[jonp]

I've used both the flat and button nose. Within 25yrds I've not noticed any deviation from the standard norm but I have not used a Ransom Rest with my Model 15 using Promo of different velocities

[tazman]

I've used both the flat and button nose. Within 25yrds I've not noticed any deviation from the standard norm but I have not used a Ransom Rest with my Model 15 using Promo of different velocities

Would not have expected any at 25 yards. The only complaints I ever heard were at 50 and beyond.

[jonp]

Would not have expected any at 25 yards. The only complaints I ever heard were at 50 and beyond.

I'm not good enough to notice that.

[tazman]

I'm not good enough to notice that.

Neither am I.

[David2011]

The thing that made me aware of WC brass was loading cast wadcutters into military brass for my Colt Trooper Mk III. The boolits were from a Saeco mold that has a square base and a very low profile button that has a very flat, maybe ten degree, point on the button. The square base swelled the brass to the point that the cartridges would stick in the chambers near the bases of the boolits.

Swaged HBWCs were so soft that they conformed to the ID of the cartridges without bulging. Back then I was casting at a friend’s house. I haven’t loaded swaged boolits since I got my own casting equipment which I started accumulating 40 years ago.

In addition to the Colt, I’m fortunate to have a 4” heavy barreled Model 10, a gorgeous 6” Model 17 and a custom S&W based PPC wadcutter only with a 6” slab sided barrel and rib sight. I LOVE shooting wadcutters!

[pbcaster45]

Well... since this thread is still active!

This is about the best I can do offhand anymore with my +60 year old eyeballs And yes, I cheated and used swaged Speer Boolits!

Sizer Die: Lee Undersized .38 Super Die
RCBS Wadcutter Expander Die
C-H Wadcutter Seating Die
RCBS .38 Special Taper Crimp Die

Bullet: Speer 148 gr. HBWC
Powder: Alliant Bullseye 2.8 grs.
Primer: Federal 100 Small Pistol
Case: Federal .38 Special
LOAL: 1.155

Forgot to pack tools to adjust the sights... but I was close! Six shots at 25 yards with a Clark PPC Revolver.

209487

I need to try my handloads off the bags... got a little aggravated when Federal Gold Medal Match outshot my handloaded rounds. But I shot those groups offhand!

305556

[LAH]

Nice shooting.

[pbcaster45]

Thanks Creeker!

[LAH]

Thanks Creeker!

A little more about that sixgun?

[pbcaster45]

It's a S&W Model 10-3 that I had worked on by Clark Custom Guns. Slicked up action, Aristocrat Sight Rib, Polished and Radiused Trigger with Trigger Stop, Crane Lock and Douglas barrel. I'm not sure about the barrel twist but I think it's a 1:14.

[LAH]

It's a S&W Model 10-3 that I had worked on by Clark Custom Guns. Slicked up action, Aristocrat Sight Rib, Polished and Radiused Trigger with Trigger Stop, Crane Lock and Douglas barrel. I'm not sure about the barrel twist but I think it's a 1:14.

I like it. My cousin may have made that barrel.

[pbcaster45]

I need to try my handloads off the bags... got a little aggravated when Federal Gold Medal Match outshot my handloaded rounds. But I shot those groups offhand!

305556

Seems like I've been trying forever to beat/match the Federal Gold Medal Match load... I think I may have finally done it! I've tried Bullseye, 231, N310 and 700-X but it was MAGIC when I tried WST! I could tell I was getting very good accuracy with the following load, but I need to test more (and remember to take my camera!)

Gulp! Hope my 66-year-old eyeballs don't make a liar out of me!

Bullet: Speer 148 gr. HBWC
Powder: Winchester WST 2.8 grains.
Primer: Federal 100
Case: Federal
OAL: 1.180

315243

[LAH]

Sounds like a winner pbcaster45. Looking forward to the report.

[wilecoyote]

I've tried Bullseye, 231, N310 and 700-X

...if you don't mind, I would be very interested to learn what you feel your best recipe with the N310, if any_
thank you very much!

[pbcaster45]

I'll have to check my records but I think I used the above combo with 2.5 grains of N-310 - didn't see anything superior with it (different story in the .45 ACP!)

Thinking hard about getting a Ransom Rest for some serious testing... my eyeballs are way past warranty.

[pbcaster45]

Five shots with the WST load at 25 yards. My eyes are not what they used to be!

315760

[wilecoyote]

thanks :drinks: !
pbcaster45, I will treasure it. I recently had a 3,5" in my hands which I think will like your recipe as much or perhaps more than the 6", which I have always target loaded with N320_

[30Carbiner]

PBCaster, thanks for sharing the WST load. I’m going to have to try. I was given a four pound jug of WST, after buying a one pound can, this summer. I’ve only used it for 45ACP but am going to try it in my 38.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Big Boomer]

Old thread but I have read through the entirety of it with great interest. I, too, have an older S&W M27 and while I like blue steel, this one is nickel plated and is also a 5 incher on the barrel. While I haven't seen any others like it (nickel plated & a 5 incher), some other owners have said while it is somewhat rare, there are some of them out there. If S&W made 5 of them, there might be 50 or 500 or 5,000 or more. Like the one owned by the Texasflyboy, mine is super accurate with just about everything I put through it, only I've never kept a count of how many. I do have some wadcutter brass but this one isn't picky in that regard. RCBS's 158 gr. SWC (plain base) and Lyman's 158 gr. 358156 SWC (gas checked) shoot really great with no leading in the barrel. Back in the day when I was steadier and my eyesight was keen (if I live until February, i'll be 84), I've shot many a 5-shot group at 25 yds of 1" and still have the targets and I'm still casting and shooting. Big Boomer

[Jtarm]

Old thread but I have read through the entirety of it with great interest. I, too, have an older S&W M27 and while I like blue steel, this one is nickel plated and is also a 5 incher on the barrel. While I haven't seen any others like it (nickel plated & a 5 incher), some other owners have said while it is somewhat rare, there are some of them out there. If S&W made 5 of them, there might be 50 or 500 or 5,000 or more. Like the one owned by the Texasflyboy, mine is super accurate with just about everything I put through it, only I've never kept a count of how many. I do have some wadcutter brass but this one isn't picky in that regard. RCBS's 158 gr. SWC (plain base) and Lyman's 158 gr. 358156 SWC (gas checked) shoot really great with no leading in the barrel. Back in the day when I was steadier and my eyesight was keen (if I live until February, i'll be 84), I've shot many a 5-shot group at 25 yds of 1" and still have the targets and I'm still casting and shooting. Big Boomer

I am still emotionally scared from missing out on a 5” nickel M27 at a gun show in 1988, by one minute.

Price tag: $225[emoji24]