1894 circa 1895 like new

[winchester85]

local guy has an 1894 winchester in 30 wcf, it is truly like new. shotgun butt, fancy wood, half octagon half round, takedown, with a cody letter. cody letter says rifle should sell for $25k or more. it was a custom order back in 1895 and does not look like it has ever been fired. i was told to "make an offer". if i were to buy it, it would not get fired, it would be as an investment. any suggestions?

[Dan Cash]

If you are asking this forum for suggestions, you don't know enough about this class/make/model of firearm to be spending money on it. It coould be pure bulion and it could be gold plated zink. Pass.

[Frank46]

I don't care how much money one of my toys costs. Sooner or later I'm gonna shoot it. That's way too much $$$ laying around taking up valuable space just to be safe queen. Plus I think a little more knowledge should be found when dealing with high periced guns as you mentioned. Frank

[runfiverun]

an unfired 110 y-o gun.....
i bought a low numbered [like 3] model 71 with all the bells and whistles from the factory.
in real minty condition [98%] for 10% of that.
[yeah, i shoot it]

it seriously would have to be nib [grease and all] for 25G.

[405]

cody letter says rifle should sell for $25k or more.

First that doesn't sound right. The Cody letter simply gives information on that particular serialed gun copied from Winchester factory records as prepared by the archival staff at BBHS.

Now, if in fact it is a really nice, unfired, special order with quite a few bells and whistles from 1895 it could well be valued at 25K. I would have a qualified third party take a look at it to get a second opinion. It could be considered first year production for the 30 WCF in the M1894. But as to it's true market value? Only the seller and buyer can determine that. Whether or not it will go up in value? I dunno. Most of the big time collectors and dealers right now are saying that run-of-the-mill guns are stable or soft in the market but the very high end stuff is still strong. If I got something like that and verified it to be as described, I too wouldn't shoot it. I'd buy a shooter pre-war M94 with a fine bore and shoot that.

[Salmoneye]

First that doesn't sound right. The Cody letter simply gives information on that particular serialed gun copied from Winchester factory records as prepared by the archival staff at BBHS.

What he said...

[winchester85]

the cody letter does in fact have at the bottom of the page a statement relating to its value. i am paraphrasing here, it says that the gun should sell for no less than $25k. the rest of the letter notes the serial number and how it was ordered from the factory. the gun is 100% correct to the letter. i have seen the letter, and handled the gun. it has been a few months now, but my recollection is that it does not have a mark on it, the finish is as close to perfect as it can be. the configuration is NOT run of the mill. my original post was to see if any one here that had knowledge of the current market in rare winchesters. or maybe a tip on who is qualified as a third party to inspect/ verify the gun. perhaps someone here has personal knowledge of someone who does this. i can inspect it, but i probably would not be able to tell if it were refinished 50 years ago, or if the parts were original to the gun, or just period correct in proper condition.

i have owned collector guns in the past. one was an unfired 1928 west hurley thompson. i owned it for several years and never fired it. sold it for 50% more than i paid for it. it was tempting, but i never even put a loaded mag in it.
to suggest that i have no business buying or owning a rare collectible winchester because i am not an expert on them is absurd. is it an exclusive club that i have to know the special handshake or something.
i do not appreciate dan cash's snide post, if that is what is on your mind, keep it to yourself.

until this thread i had not seen the "bust the other guys balls" that i have seen on other forums.

[Dan Cash]

..... to suggest that i have no business buying or owning a rare collectible winchester because i am not an expert on them is absurd. is it an exclusive club that i have to know the special handshake or something.
i do not appreciate dan cash's snide post, if that is what is on your mind, keep it to yourself.

until this thread i had not seen the "bust the other guys balls" that i have seen on other forums.

Winchester 85 saw fit to send me this PM:

Originally Posted by winchester85
so if i am not an expert on collectible guns, i have no right to own one?
i do not appreciate your post. if you feel the need to post something condescending, or just to be rude, please do it somewhere else.

I replied:

You asked and I gave you the best advice you will get. You have the right to buy what ever gun you want and you can also snivel about how you got taken. If you are not an expert on collectible guns and don't have an expert working for you, you are a fool to go for a deal like this. If you don't want the cold hard truth, don't ask.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Evidently, since I did not come back to this thread and argue with small capacity operating systems, you feel compelled to feed me your remarks by PM. Well you put your attack on the open forum so let the forum see your remarks. You asked for an opinion and you got several telling you the same thing. I wash my hands of this.
Sincerely,
Dan Cash

[winchester85]

i fail to see the purpose of the last post. other than to continue to be assert your perceived superiority.

my PM was hardly an attack, and i have no problem with it being out there for all to see. i dont believe the open forum is the place for contacting someone concerning their post that i find condescending.

if your post has nothing to do with the thread, please do not post. i hope you have truly washed your hands of this.

i will do my research and may buy the gun or not, but whether i buy it or not will not be posted here or any other forum. if after doing my research and negotiating a price, sniveling is not something you would ever hear from me.

i am tired of people crapping in my punch bowl.

[405]

win85,
Interesing that it does have value estimate on the letter. Every Cody letter I have or have seen doesn't include anything like that. The only thing I can think of is that the gun is in a special category where the people at the BBHS/C who do the research did the valuation because of that special status or it was requested as a special service that inluded the valuation or it is an older letter when they may have done that in certain instances. I certainly don't know. You might contact the Buffalo Bill Hist. Center in Cody http://www.bbhc.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/
and
the Winchester Collector Arms assoc. http://www.winchestercollector.org/ and see what information they could offer.

At a certain point even with several "expert" opinions you may find none of them in 100% aggreement. Also, as to opinions by others-- while they may be honest opinions, the ones offering them don't have the $ on the line. Then it's up to you and your own eye, gut feeling and research. You can do most of it with a few books like Pirkle's book- "The Models of 1894 and 1895", etc. Most major boo boos of wrong, non-factory or non-original parts or alterations can be determined with a book like Pirkle's. Judging the metal finish is not very difficult when clued into what to look for. Judging the originality of the wood finish will be the toughest. The best way for judging the wood finish may to find a comparable model and year of manuf. for direct comparison.

Finally, even though the valuation is at 25K it really is not in the highest category of high end Winchester lever guns. Many are valued in the 50-100K plus range. There is a difference in getting "taken" on a 25K purchase and getting taken on a 100K purchase. But then again, no one like to get taken even on a $500 gun. Good luck! I like old Wincesters, and a legitimate one in the condition you describe, is truly rare and significant.

[Gunnut 45/454]

I've never understood the mentality of having safe queens. Unless the gun has a petagree of being own by a famous outlaw or lawman back in the day it's just a 30-30. Offer a grand and go shoot it thats what it was made for.:Fire:

[sharps4590]

At 25K and the possibility of a significant increase on investment I have no problems whatsoever understanding a safe queen.

[Hickory]

Having a beautiful one of a kind gun you would not shoot, would be like;
Having a beautiful one of a kind woman you would not make love too.

Get a shooter, your wife will love you for it.

[Good Cheer]

At this particular time that isn't where I would lump a significant investment. Having it as an investment (like a precious art object) would be fine with me except for current economic situations around the world.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

winchester 85, I am sure you are experienced enough to tell if a gun has been refinished or not but I remember a year or two ago a Winchester lever gun, a 76 I think won first place in a high end gun show. Now this rifle was examined by experts and they pronounched it legit. Doug Turnbull saw the article and said hey, that is a gun I rebuilt and refinished. Naturally the award was recinded. As for advice on whether to buy or not, I am quaified to say. Is there any way you could find out if there is a market for it before you buy. Any way you look at it, 25k is a lot of money. Of course it is your money.

[TXGunNut]

I've never seriously considered any collectibles, too much subjectivity in the pricing and I'm pretty sure I'd make a serious error if I played that game. A first-year 94 30WCF would be an awesome addition to any collection but that's for other folks to enjoy.
The value estimate is a red flag for me as well. I've never seen one in a Cody letter. Would be worth a phone call, at least.

[KirkD]

I would recommend posting some good quality photos on the Winchester Collectors Forum http://www.winchestercollector.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3 and getting their input. You should also post a photo of the Cody letter. I've never heard of them suggesting a value before. That raises some red flags with me about the letter itself. However, one of the fellows on the Winchester Collectors Forum has spent a lot of time at Cody for many years, working as a volunteer researcher. He would be in a good position to give you some very good input.

[Greg B.]

Winchester, I would do what the guys are suggesting here and contact the Cody Museum, Winchester Collectors Association and Doug Turnbull. Knowledge is what keeps guys like you and me from being hosed. I have been there but not for that amount of money. If it turns out it is bona fide offer him half and let the fun begin.

If it has been refinished and doesn't have the collectors value, I wonder what Turnbull would charge to build one? Good luck.

Greg B.

Greg B.