S&W 500 lead at 1600fps no GC?

[RobsTV]

Getting prepared to cast my own boolits, and have been reading everything I can find. A lot of conflicting data though has me confused.

I'll start with this.
If a black powder 45-70 trapdoor was made to be able to shoot straight lead at 1600fps (wiki 45-70), then it would seem that a S&W 500 that shot lead at less than 1600fps would also be no problem.

To reduce costs as much as possible, I will probably be starting off with Lee 440grain GC mold, but I may have the GC removed. Load data for my powder shows around 1450-1550fps. Was just given 65# of pure lead.

Please explain the error of my thoughts on this. Were the old black powder guns a lead alloy mix?

Thanks

[subsonic]

The old black powder guns shot black powder.

[RobsTV]

The old black powder guns shot black powder.

Correct, and when used with a 300 grain lead bullet, runs at speeds close to 1600fps. The more common 405gr was moving at around 1300fps with BP. Modern smokeless pushes 300gr to 2000-2300fps, but that is not plain lead.

My point though is not about the bullet or the powder as much as it is the speed the plain lead seems to be capable of without a GC.

[subsonic]

There is more to making it work than just speed.

You are going to need a very hard boolit and a slow powder, and may still have trouble. But if you want, go ahead and try it. Maybe you'll prove me wrong :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Yes it will! I shoot PB all the time at over 1600 fps.
But you are not going to do it with pure lead from a revolver.
BP has a softer punch, acts like a filler as it burns and a rifle has no gap or jump to a forcing cone to try and take twist without skid or slump.
You really need water dropped wheel weight metal or a good alloy.

[RobsTV]

Thanks for the replies.

Were 45-70's reloaded by users in the late 1800's?
I would imagine so, since the only thing odd would be primer, but they carried percussion caps for cap and ball, so why not primers as well.

If they did reload, then what would they use for lead? Seems like just plain old straight lead, right? Water quenching seems easy enough for them to do.

I didn't think of the BP "softer punch" effect. Case pressure is double in the 500, so that would explain what you guys are meaning.

Thanks, I'll keep reading.

[44man]

Most added some tin. 1 part tin to 20 parts lead or 1 to 30.
Tin adds almost no hardness but makes lead "wetter" to flow better when casting. Helps keep boolits from corroding too.
Water will not harden pure or a tin lead mix. You need tin, antimony and a trace of arsenic.

[RobsTV]

..
Water will not harden pure or a tin lead mix. You need tin, antimony and a trace of arsenic.


Need the same stuff if heated in an oven to increase hardness?

[RobsTV]

I also have a source for free WW. At first I thought I was supposed to only get stick on type, so have around 40# of stick on lead weights. Then learned that I do need the clip on type based on lead and started building a collection of those.

Looks like mixing lead alloy clip on wheel weights with pure lead will allow harder boolits. But how do you know what is in the WW you start with? Tin, antimony and a trace of arsenic? Seems like a **** shoot with WW as to what they consist of if you only heat to melting point. Is close enough good enough? Or is a hardness tester really needed to get it right? This along the lines of shooting 1500+fps without GC.

[subsonic]

The only way you're going to make this work is with a very hard alloy and a slow powder. I'm not sure it will work even then. By very hard, I mean over 21bnh, or as hard as you can get. No STICK ONs in the mix. Just pur WW + Lino and heat treated as much as possible.

Boolit design and weight will need to be right for this as well. You'll need plenty of bearing surface to grab the rifling without stripping.

You will also need a great lube.

I'd look and see if anyone else has done it successfully first. That's a lot to ask of a lead boolit. Have you shot much cast in magnum handguns? Have you ever shot cast in your .500S&W?

[RobsTV]

I'd look and see if anyone else has done it successfully first. That's a lot to ask of a lead boolit. Have you shot much cast in magnum handguns? Have you ever shot cast in your .500S&W?

No, never shot cast in a Magnum handgun, only 385gr jacketed and 350gr plated, but have in 32 acp, 40 S&W, 38-40 BP (sometimes same 180gr boolit as 40 S&W), and 45-70-405 BP, plus a few muzzle loaders.

Was planning on testing 440 GC retail boolits made from the Lee mold first, as well as 400 PB that I see available.

[RobsTV]

Just recieved the MSDS on the lead, but not sure what it means.
Probably just standard stuff that won't be helpful?


So my question is, how do you really know what is in the lead you have?
Looks like this could be anything from 90-10 to 99-1.

[RobsTV]

A quick through my old TV stuff and came across some rolls of solder.

A couple look good to me as useful for this task, 63% tin, 37% lead.
Other is 60/40 Rosin core. Will the Rosin make this unusable?

If looking at things another way, going with Gas Checks.
Then, is the lead mentioned above still in need of a lot of work to be usable with a 440gr boolit at 1550fps?

[dmize]

Ifin it were me I would start with straight clip on wheel weights and water quench them WITH the GC. THAT is going to be the easiest boolit to get figured out.
Then Try the same thing water quenched in a PB boolet. And see how that works.
Just my personal opinion,if you look at comercial boolits for any of the 500's they pretty much all have GC's,I wish I would have ordered my NOE mold with gc cuts,it would have made life soooo much simpler.
As others have said and you are starting to learn these monsters are completely different than anything you have loaded so far.
As FWIW as far as cost of gc's it takes quite a bit of shooting to run 1,000 rounds 400 grain chunks of lead thru a handgun at 1,600 fps. AND your going to need a really good lube,like LBT Blue or WLL Carnuba Red
And for the rozin in the solder,it will simpy melt and float to the top to be skimmed off,after it quits cooking and smoking

[44man]

Of all the free or cheap lead, WW's are the most useful.
I water drop every revolver boolit. I shoot PB in the .475, .500 JRH and 45-70. I tried a PB, .45 Colt boolit in the .454 at near max pressure of 55,000# and it shot great groups with no leading.
I quit making my own molds for GC's, too expensive and the only time I need them is for a softer lead for the 45-70 for deer. The hard boolit is too fast to work well. I tried 50-50 WW's and pure, oven hardened to 18-20 BHN and they were way too destructive so I am either going to make a soft nose, hard base or try 75-25 WW's and pure but they still need oven hardened for accuracy. Only a deer will tell me what will be best.
I am wondering if too hard a boolit from the .500 S&W will work at the high velocity??? It is best for accuracy but what will it do on deer.
Might be perfect for very large animals though.
I have to say a hard PB should shoot very good from the S&W, leave the pure lead out. Any mix will need a GC. Even air cooled WW's should use a GC, makes it easier.

[44man]

My favorite mix for accuracy is 20# of WW's, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony. It is a pain to mix.
I obtained a 75# ingot of stereo type lead for $15. I have been using 19# of WW lead and 1# of the stereo, stereo is 7% tin and 15% antimony.
After 2 days aging it is 21 BHN but seems to be very tough and has been shooting good.
Testing BHN has shown a more even reading all over the boolit and between boolits.

[475/480]

The reason you can shoot the old 45-70 at 1600 fps with soft lead is the LOW pressure needed to drive the boolit whereas the SW 500 uses HIGH pressure to drive the boolit to 1600 fp............BIG difference. There is a LOT more strain on the boolit which requires a HARDER boolit.


Sean

[RobsTV]

Thanks, lots of good stuff. More things to temporarily confuse me, but more studying will work it all out.

Since I have a lot of Lee Liquid Alox, and more comes with each sizing die, was hoping to use Recluse method for making a better tumble lube.

Is that not possible for what I am shooting for?
Or, will I need to make more changes to alloy if I plan on using that for tumble lube?

For 38-40 and 45-70 bought soft lead boolits, am currently melting off blue lube, then pan lubing custom black powder lube into grooves. I have this down pretty good now, and very happy with results. Was hoping for an easier and faster method for the boolits I will be casting for smokeless powders.

[dmize]

Not sure about tumble lubing them.
I have good results with a 400 grain Lee Tumble Lube bullet and 45/45/10 in my 480 Ruger,I dont have a chrony but they aint going anywhere near 1600 fps.
My other 480 and 500 moulds are conventional lube grooves,2 really big ones,at that.
And I dont think adjusting your alloy is going to make as big a difference in this as adjusting your velocity goals. And from reading here and in other places,it seems that in all reality 1100 to 1200 fps is the range where best results are gotten with these big bullets.
I would suggest that before you beat the holy living snot out of yourself,work up a mild mid to upper mid level load and load for strictly accuracy,dont worry about muzzle velocity. Im willing to bet you find a sweet spot well below a full max level. This will make life a lot easier on you,it will be soo much simpler to find an alloy/lube combination that works. Then if you think you need more ummph start bumping it up. There are several guys on Single Actions that play with 500's,S&W,Linebaugh,and Linebaugh Longs. A couple of them do a LOT of testing. And most all of them seem to shoot for the 1200 fps area.

[RobsTV]

Load data for the 440 with the powder I am using is as follows:

A4100(ramshot enforcer) 440 CP WFNGC , (start) 33.0 1,420, (max) 37.0 1,650, 57,000 2.020

Popular powders other use with the 500 are Lil'Gun and H110 which start min loads at 1500fps with 440gr. The A4100 I am using can actually be loaded light, something the others, not so much.

I have found real life chrono results are about 90% of what is stated (using 8 3/8" and CE ProChrono) which if this holds true, would be 1278 - 1485fps using above A4100 loads.

I was using the 1600fps only as a possible maximum, and plan on loading as slow as possible that allows for the best 100 yard accuracy. Might be 1250. Might be 1650 (hope not).

While I have only shot up to 385gr JHP at speeds up to 1650fps (load data sheet showed roughly 1800fps), these do not bother me in the slightest, and shooting 50 rounds in a nearly non-stop session is not uncommon. Yes, the 440 will hurt, and I might only end up shooting 10 to 20 at a time.

I guess the beauty of all this is that when I start casting, I can simply cast, test, melt, cast and retest until I get results I want.

[subsonic]

You have a pretty lofty goal to start with. Set some easier goals first and work you way toward this one. You might get there, but it will take some work.

[dmize]

I guess the beauty of all this is that when I start casting, I can simply cast, test, melt, cast and retest until I get results I want.
Thats a really good way of looking at it,and in all reality the best way to learn the game. I like the challenge.Small batches and lots of notes.

[44man]

Thanks, lots of good stuff. More things to temporarily confuse me, but more studying will work it all out.

Since I have a lot of Lee Liquid Alox, and more comes with each sizing die, was hoping to use Recluse method for making a better tumble lube.

Is that not possible for what I am shooting for?
Or, will I need to make more changes to alloy if I plan on using that for tumble lube?

For 38-40 and 45-70 bought soft lead boolits, am currently melting off blue lube, then pan lubing custom black powder lube into grooves. I have this down pretty good now, and very happy with results. Was hoping for an easier and faster method for the boolits I will be casting for smokeless powders.
Dump the LLA! Use a good lube. I like Felix lube, easy to make. Glen at White Label makes great stuff cheap.
Tumble lubes are not best in the area you want to shoot. I shoot TL boolits from Lee and RD but I use a REAL lube on them.

[RobsTV]

Dump the LLA! Use a good lube. I like Felix lube, easy to make. Glen at White Label makes great stuff cheap.
Tumble lubes are not best in the area you want to shoot. I shoot TL boolits from Lee and RD but I use a REAL lube on them.

Thanks, I will look into using that. (EDIT: Looked and going with the White Label Lube. Will use the LLA for the .40's.)

[RobsTV]

Thanks, all set now.

[dnotarianni]

After a couple thousand rounds down range thru my 500 S&W I have had good results with 12-14 BHN lead with a gc. If you have to buy hard lead you may as well just GC the bullet and use what you already have. Word of advise 450 gr at 1400 stings without gloves

Dave

[dmize]

After a couple thousand rounds down range thru my 500 S&W I have had good results with 12-14 BHN lead with a gc. If you have to buy hard lead you may as well just GC the bullet and use what you already have. Word of advise 450 gr at 1400 stings without gloves

Dave

Dont worry Dave he's one of the "bullet proof ones".

[dnotarianni]

Dont worry Dave he's one of the "bullet proof ones".

When the wrist hurts the following day for a week or two somebody will be looking for reduced loads for his " wife/ girlfriend/ neighbor/ daughter/ ect :kidding:

Best loads for continuous shooting I like is 20 gr unique with a 350 or 16 gr with a 475. You know you got a 500 but can enjoy it too. At 6' 280 I ain't scared of recoil and if you want recoil push a 630 gr at 1200. Won't shoot too many of them at one sitting without a cigarette.

Dave

[dmize]

Well I guess I shouldnt make such "broad strokes with a brush" But I get a bit aggrivated when a simple question becomes so complicated.
If he wants to jack himself up,he apparently has the right equipment and lots of info.
I used to be 6'3 and bulletproof,WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Im still 6'3 but im now 44 with 30 years of hard labor involving arms,wrists and hands. And as much as I try to ignore it,SHIX has changed!!!!!!!!!! 50 full house rounds out of my 500 JRH and my right hand twitches for a couple days...No worry tho,I remember "the good old days"quite vividly.

[subsonic]

It's all about conditioning and condition and proper fit of the gun to the shooter.

I usually shoot ~20 heavy .475 or .500JRH loads at a sitting, but have shot more with no problems - up to about 50. As all things in life, moderation is an important consideration.

[dnotarianni]

Well I guess I shouldnt make such "broad strokes with a brush" But I get a bit aggrivated when a simple question becomes so complicated.
If he wants to jack himself up,he apparently has the right equipment and lots of info.
I used to be 6'3 and bulletproof,WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Im still 6'3 but im now 44 with 30 years of hard labor involving arms,wrists and hands. And as much as I try to ignore it,SHIX has changed!!!!!!!!!! 50 full house rounds out of my 500 JRH and my right hand twitches for a couple days...No worry tho,I remember "the good old days"quite vividly.

Got 10 years on you but still in the s--t with heavy equipment on a steady basis and with the loads I listed I can shoot 200+ at a time without wishing I didn't. Using a 6.5" 500S&W. Found it gave me the best balance and matched the other smiths I got. The 4" looked wrong unless I was going fishing in bear country and the 8 3/8 was too long and didn't feel balance to me. Whats nice is going and shooting 50 rounds of 500 before a match then the .45 feels like a 22!

Either way if he wants to play I'll be happy to share what I got for loads and chrony readings for the 500. Anyway you call it were all shooters busting caps for fun and profit! ( I won enough for a happy meal last week!)

Dave

[dmize]

I do have to agree that full house 44 mags feeling like a 357 is a unique sensation. But actually I think we were both giving the same "warnings/words of wisdom"?

[RobsTV]

When the wrist hurts the following day for a week or two somebody will be looking for reduced loads for his " wife/ girlfriend/ neighbor/ daughter/ ect :kidding:

Best loads for continuous shooting I like is 20 gr unique with a 350 or 16 gr with a 475. You know you got a 500 but can enjoy it too. At 6' 280 I ain't scared of recoil and if you want recoil push a 630 gr at 1200. Won't shoot too many of them at one sitting without a cigarette.

Dave

question anyone that shoots reduced loads out of a 500 needs to ask is,why bother getting a 500 if you are only going to shoot it like a 44 magnum?"

I don't want to debate about how strong or weak anyone is, or how a gun shoots. Just a simple discussion about how to create a boolit that fits into the "normal range powder load data chart" for that boolit.