further education

[bigted]

well i finally took the lube cookie chalenge today. was setting last night feeling kinda poorly and decided to do what id meant to do for awhile now...make some cookies...lube cookies that is. made em .362 inch in thickness which is just an eyeball in my glass pieplate i use for pan lubing. after making this platefull of nice flat lube i used my cutter that i use for lubing my boolits with a .452 inch colt boolit up inside first to help push em out nice and flat and even. got 6 of them out in perfect shape and couldnt wait so i took these rite out and loaded em thusly...

boolit is a lyman 457125 gouvernment boolit weighing 520 grains.
.080 tablet backing wad for over the cookie.
the .362 inch cookie.
a .002 inch wax paper over powder cover.
i put enough powder in my 45-70 remington cases that i would be able to get .250 inch of compression when i seated my boolit and column with enough boolit out of the case to kiss the rifling on my Browning bpcr rifle. this powder in grains weighed comes to 55 grains of goex cartridge powder.
this all sparked with a cci 200 large rifle primer.

my load column ahead of the powder takes up .962 inch of space in the small 45-70 case but these 55 grain loads shoot like a big ol 22 in my 11 pound rifle.

now a bit of history is called for here...before when i shot my browning hiwall with straight black powder ...after an exhaustive experimenting with it...found that my boolit had to slightly engrave the rifling to be accurate and also i had to wipe the bore with a spit patch and follow that with a dry one to get the kinda accuracy i wanted with this boolit...not only that but after the first shot i couldnt chamber another round without wiping or blowing thru the tube to soften the fouling so the next round would chamber.

which brings me to todays lil shoot in the front yard. i was looking at whether the boolits would chamber after the previous shot first...then what was the boolit doing after it plowed thru the other shots fouling......allow me to just say YIPPI !!!

after the first 3 went into nice round holes across the yard and they all three chambered without a hitch i let the rifle set for 15 minutes...then shoved three more thru her and still all nice round holes and chambered without a hitch.

now what was i looking for??? a hunting load with blackpowder that i could get more then a couple shots chambered and to have them run at good hunting accuracy. the accuracy point is still to be found out but the rest is history...they run like a champ and im going to run 20 thru it to find out how many i can expect to go without fouling out to a point that i cant chamber another eisilly.

now that i know that they will work like a charm ill try em in my 45-120 so i can get some powder in the case to develope some horsepower for the northern critters that sometimes bite back.

im friggin stoked man...oh yea the clean-up

started with a water soaked patch rung out so it wouldnt drip and shoved it straight thru the bore without the slightest effort...came out wet and greesey. then followed another so wetted patch and scrubbed back n forth three times...way cleaner...followed with a third so wetted patch which came out clean with 10 back n forth strokes...followed by a clean dry patch then a oilly patch to put away. no lead...and chambering with ease???id say so!!

what a hoot...thanks all for the instruction on these cookies...man do they work!

:p...;)...:D...:-)...:lovebooli...:!::!::!::!::!:

[guninhand]

Thanks for all the detail. I've used 777ffg in my BPCR so far but I want to try real black and all I have is Goex ffg. Can you confirm that the compression was done with a die or something and not by seating the boolit? Also I take it if you used a drop tube you could get more powder in and still have the same column assembly of components and dimensions, if say you wanted more boolit speed.

[montana_charlie]

Do it again with a paper patched bullet and tell me you got equally good results.

THAT is the 'Holy Grail' I want to find ...

CM

[TXGunNut]

That's great, bigted! Love it when a load comes together.

[bigted]

guninhand...yes i droptube all my bp loads...have for awhile. and that 2f goex is the righteous stuff for 45-70 loads...it likes the same 1/4 inch compression...the compression is always done with my comp die insert from baco for my rcbs dies.

montana charlie...yes i agree with you...i am going to try that next but for today i had to break into the 45-120 to try these new to me lube cookies. loaded the same boolit with the same load column except i got 105 grains of cartridge in that case behind the cookie n boolit n all. wowww that will be a hunting load and every one of the six i loaded slid rite home the same as the 45-70's did. i expected the cleaning to be a bit more demanding tho and i was very surprised that the very same cleaning for the 45-70 cleaned my 120 with all the extra powder burnt thru her. oh and the grease star was very aparent on the shiloh that has a flat no recess crown...i really like this shiloh 45-120. what a keeper!


also txgunnut...i have been skirtin around this cookie thing for the longest time and now i wonder why...just so easy and a little messy...[just the way we like it tho]. sometimes i wonder why i wait so long to try something new but ho hum...what fun!

so now i have a hunting load with greasers now all i need to discover is the same thing in a paperpatch load like you refer to charlie.

[bigted]

got em loaded...have a old west hollow base adjustable in .452 inch and have poured some 454 grain boolits n wrapped em with the onionskin for a .458 inch diameter.

also have a new accurate mould that throws a 412 grain .454 inch diameter boolit and having poured some of these as well.

poured some lube into a 1/4 inch thick slab and using an older .444 marlin case for a cookie cutter as those seem to slip into the 45-70 case better and not so messy to handle.

loaded these all into remington cases with cci 200 primers...the .250 inch cookies take up a bit less room in my 45-70 cases but time will tell if that is enough lube to carry thru for accurate repeat shots on target. i use a wax paper between the powder and cookie and a .080 cardboard wad between the cookie and the boolits. powder is GOEX cartridge powder and compressed to seat the boolit down to just kiss the rifling.

now all i need is some quality time at the 100 yard range to see how these group and wheather i can get repeat shots without wiping the bore...that is my quest...then my duplex loads will be a thing of the past i recon.

more news when i get these shot and im gonna cheat and install my leopold 6 to 18x scope on the rifle to take me outta the equation as much as possible.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, bigted. Glad to hear your good results..when I read about that cleaning patch coming out greesey..it reminded me of my experiance last summer: I too was working with a black powder ctg...mite bit smaller than yours, a .25-25 Stevens, in an original Ballard No. 3. After drop-tubing 22.5grs. Swiss 3FG, I use a 1/16" dental beeswax wad, thum pressed in case mouth over powder. Next, a
1/8" SPG "grease cookie" is placed in mouth, & another 1/16" B.W. wad goes over that. Ideal 25725 of soft lead & SPG lubes is seated two bands deep in case with Ideal nickle plated No. 3 tong tool.
At 50yds..I was grouping well under 1/2". Damp patch thru bore comes out covered with greesey black fouling..blow tube alone not enough in this small bore..must run damp patch thru for accuracy.

[bigted]

i cut the length of my cookies to 1/4 inch for more powder room and they still did their work with 65 grains of the cartridge powder in the 45-70 browning. havent had time to do any range work but i have to say that the .454 mould gives me a .460 inch boolit after patching and so far they havnt shucked a patch and the 1/4 inch cookie still does a very good job here in the yard for repeatable loading quality with patched boolits....that 1/4 inch cookie is from the 444 marlin cases as a cutter too so when i seat my wad and boolit i think i get a bit shorter cookie as it fills the 45 case diameter so maybe im only getting around a 3/16th or so but all i know is that it works like a charm and i cant wait for winter cold to try em in the lowwwww temps.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for the encouraging word ...

I loaded some with cookies during the first week of May.
I might get a chance to shoot them today.

CM

[bigted]

cool montana...look forward to hearing about your outcome with the cookies. im hoping that you experience the same sucess as i have so far.

just got a mould from baco for a greese groove boolit of 500 grains in the old guverment style but in .460 inch...gonna try them with the cookies as well just as soon as i can get some cast up.

[montana_charlie]

Well, the wind is kicking too hard for shooting, today, so results will have to wait.
Meanwhile, I did some more fabrication (cutting and welding) on a target stand/gong hanger that I am building out of an old cattle squeeze chute.
I bought the thing at an auction as a 'spur of the moment afterthought', and found it was a wreck when I got it home.

After twenty years of trying not to look at it, I finally thought of a use for the basic framework.

CM

[bigted]

LOL...see...it wasnt junk afterall. bet you got grief when it came home with you and now look...turns out to be a treassure after all...just took some time to ruminate about it is all. i got some of these and i still be doin the ruminating as i know that they will save the day sometime...jest havent gotten the rite combanation yet is all.

[Mike Brooks]

I'll add what little I know. I use a '73 win. in .45LC for cowboy shooting. The only way I could keep it going is with about a 3/16" lube cookie. Could shoot all day that way. I may experiment a bit with my '76 win 45-60 and cookies. RIght now the first five shoots are good, after that it's hard fouling and leading with poor accuracy.....even with the so called "Big Lube" bullets. Been experimenting with compression to see If I can beat the fouling....too hot now to worry about it.:sad:

[bigted]

just shot 25 in a row. 10 were the lyman 457125's and the last 15 were patched boolits of the final wrapped diameter of .460 inch. shot like a dream the whole way...if the accuracy holds for yardage then i have the hunting load i been looking for.

boolit is the accurate .454 slick and patched to .460 weighing 412 grains
1/4 inch cookie
dropped 60 grain cartridge powder from GOEX
.080 inch over cookie wad
.002 inch wax over powder
boolit loaded to just touch the rifling
cci 200 large rifle primer
remington case...unsized

neat load with all the smoke n thunder and patch shower a guy could ask for.

cleanup like above...very nice!!

[montana_charlie]

Ted, you are only using 60 grains of powder in that load.
Is it in a 45/70 case?
Or, is it because you are just shooting in the yard?

CM

[omgb]

I use a grease cookie in my 12 bore "Talleywhacker". There's lots of room in the 3.5" case even with a 150 grain load of 2F. I drop the powder, add a nitro card, add on .5" lubed fiber wad, drop in the grease cookie, add a .25" cork wad, compress .25", add the slug and give it a slight crimp. This is a single shot rifled barrel slug gun. I can shoot it 10 times in a row without any chambering problems and I get good accuracy out to 100 yards. (good means 3" groups) It's no tack drive but it will bang the heck out of a deer at that range. the slug weighs over 825 grains cast from 1/20 lead. I'm not sure the grease cookie is really doing much. The lubed wad effectively scrapes the bore pretty clean. It does develop a nice lube star though, FWIT.

[bigted]

it is a 45-70 case. with the load column it is all the powder ...[unless i compress more then the 1/4 inch]...my load column will withstand and keep the boolit so it will chamber.

now the 120 is a different case completly...i can load 110 grains and still get the column i want/ need with the 3/8ths cookie in there. this IS the hunting load i would take the grizzlys to task with...the 45-70 will be a good round for the cariboo in winter if i can get to them.

the .441 boolits patched to .447/.448 chamber well into the barrel rifling and far enough out to allow 75 or 80 grains of powder in the 45-70 case with my column and these really would be super hunting loads but havnt put them to the chalenge of accuracy yet either...would rather go with the larger boolits as i really like the no sizing of the cases that they allow.

[montana_charlie]

it is a 45-70 case. with the load column it is all the powder ...[unless i compress more then the 1/4 inch]...my load column will withstand and keep the boolit so it will chamber.
Understood.

I gave my grease cookie loads a try today, even though conditions weren't good enough for accuracy testing.

Shooting a gong from 200 yards, I found I could load and fire three with no form of fouling control. But, then, it was imperative to clean the bore ... and the first damp patch through was almost too much for a Delrin rod to push.

The fouling was dry and crusty, and the cookie seemed to have little effect.

I will reduce the charge from 80 grains with one .125" cookie to 75 grains with two cookies. Calculations say that the powder compression will remain about the same with this combination.

If that doesn't do the job, I may change my cookie recipe. Right now I am using a bullet lube much like SPG.

Anyway ... enjoy the Fourth!

CM

[bigted]

couple questions charlie...what boolit...what powder and what final diameter when patched? the .125 cookies seem short and im bettin that the double cookies that amount to 1/4==.250 inch will sweeten your fouled bore.

went out and let a friend shoot both my hiwall 45-70 bp patched loads and also my shiloh 45-120 with the patched loads...he had a blast and i smiled all the way becouse he didnt have a clue as to the trial i been thru to allow him to just keep stuffing rounds into the hungry breech and keep shooting.

im interested in your load column that allows 75 grains if you are using a groove diameter patched boolit...compression and such.

well off to work for three so will be scketchy around here for a few days.

had a great 4rth and let the smoke outta some cartridges for the fun...later

ill add this as well...my lube is very greesey and slippery when handleing it and this comes from the crisco and peanutoil with the bee wax...i gotta stop and wash me hands after handling the stuff into the cases ...just wanted to add that before i go.

[montana_charlie]

couple questions charlie...what boolit...what powder and what final diameter when patched? the .125 cookies seem short and im bettin that the double cookies that amount to 1/4==.250 inch will sweeten your fouled bore.
Money bullet at .454" from the mould, and patched to .459". Finger seated with a twisting motion, ends up snug in the (unsized) mouth but cannot be pulled out by hand. Bullet sits firmly on the over-the-cookie wad at .660" below the mouth.

Yes, two wads will make a quarter inch cookie.

im interested in your load column that allows 75 grains if you are using a groove diameter patched boolit...compression and such.
It is a 45/90 case. That probably answers the question in your mind.
82 grains of drop tubed Goex Cartridge fills the case to a level .430" below the mouth. Since my bullet is seated .660" deep and there is need to compress enough to allow for a .030" wad and a .125" cookie, the powder column must be packed down to .815 below the mouth. That results in a powder compression of .385"

With 75 grains filling to a level .555" below the mouth, and using a double cookie, powder compression will also be .385".

my lube is very greesey and slippery when handleing it ...just wanted to add that before i go.
I had that impression back when you detailed your recipe ...

CM

[bigted]

ahhhhhhh the 90 case answers most my questions. thanks...i know my 120 case has bookoo room for about as much powder as i wanna play with but makes a great cookie case...i use a roughly 3/8ths cookie in it with the 110 grain compressed load...ya know it when you launch a 540 grainer from rcbs mould with this amount of compressed powder but its very tolerable and aint nuthin like the beating i take from some warmer loads in my #1.

[bigted]

well my latest try with these cookies was trying to get 70 grains in my 45-70 cases with a cookie and 55 grains in my 38-55 cases....all charges was with GOEX cartridge powder. cases were winchester for the 38's and rp & winchester for the 45.

both experiments went awry...bulged the cases with the compression needed for the cookie and over cookie wad. when i fired these tho they contributed to my trust in this system with absolutly no problems in the chambering of repeated shots. i used the 1/4 inch cookie in both cases for both the 38-55 and the 45-70's . i love the repeatability of this cookie style shooting and find that the 45-120 case is ideal for horsepower loads with the 3/8ths cookie. they perform well and with either the 400ish or the 500+ grain boolits papered they have the horsepower to do any job i could ever run into.

MC...did you ever get back to your cookie experiments?

[montana_charlie]

MC...did you ever get back to your cookie experiments?
Nope ... it's time to be puttin' up hay.

I only fired half of my first 'cookie loads' at the gong, and I need to shoot the rest at paper to see how the load groups.
Then, I'll put together a stack with a taller cookie, and see what happens.

But, the hay comes first ...

CM

[bigted]

i understand...good haying sir and if i were in the neighborhood id drop by for an extra hand. hope the rain holds for you!

[montana_charlie]

i understand...
Well, the hay got put in the stack and that cutting turned out better than it looked when the season began. Then, I went straight to irrigating for the second cutting, and finished that today.

With some time to think about 'other things', I took the remaining seven rounds from that first experiment and fired five of them on a 200 yard paper target.

The first session (back in July) told me that 'shooting dirty' doesn't work for more than three shots, so I used a blow tube this time. At least it's less hassle than wiping.

That worked out pretty well. I never had a round that was stubborn to load. Remember, these are patched to groove bullets.
And, the group was reasonably good for a real casual shooting session.

I shot sitting on the ground using some homemade cross stix that don't have spikes on the bottom. So, they lean into me when I am blowtubing and loading, and they may not return to the same 'vertical' from one shot to the next.

If it wasn't caused by me, that could account for the vertical stringing, but I just wasn't energetic enough to haul out the bench ... and everything ... for seven shots.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/8-2-12at200yd.jpg

The centers of the bottom hole and the top hole are four inches apart.

CM