Lil gun for 7.62x39

[DrCaveman]

I tried some searches on this forum as well as the web in general, but found no testimony of anyone actually trying it out.

Burn rate of Lil gun seems very close to AA1680 which is the 'quintessential' powder for 7.62x39. This may not be true when using cast boolits, but anyway I would also like to find a few good jacketed bullet loads and they may lead to a good load for my cast.

Bullets intending to be used are lee TL 312-160 w/ gas check and some generic 124 gr spitzer point jacketed.

Gun is a CZ 527 carbine.

I am planning to try out some loads with the 124's using 23 gr of Lil gun. This is the starting load for 1680 so I feel pretty comfortable. I would be even more comfortable if I had ever heard of anyone using this powder for this cartridge.

My load for the lee 312-160 is hovering between 16-18 gr imr 4227, as per lyman manuals. Frankly it has been terrible so far, but I am working out some kinks, should get better.

Does anyone have any testimonials or words of wisdom? Thanks in advance, I will report how the Lil gun load performs.

[DrCaveman]

As a little addendum to my request, I would like to request that all warnings against use of Lil gun due to a reputation for excessive heat be withheld.

On the other hand, first-hand experiences with excessive heat issues or pressure spikes are most welcome. Since I am asking about a rifle, please present experiences where most applicable, ie. A rifle, shotgun, or long barreled handgun.

For what it is worth, I have successfully used Lil gun in 357 mag with pretty good overall results. For some loads, I think that 2400 came out on top, but for others, Lil gun was the winner.

Also I hear about lots of success using Lil gun in 44 mag (similar case capacity and pressure limits to 7.62x39). Also 22 hornet seems to love Lil gun.

I changed my mind, my starting load for the 124 jax will be 20 gr, and I'll work up from there. Hope I don't get one stuck.

[303Guy]

FWIW, I've fired boolits from my 303 Brit using Lil'Gun. Not a lot, just enough to drive the boolit down the bore.

Load tables show a strange effect with Lil'Gun - a smaller case develops less pressure with the same powder charge! For instance the hornet is listed with a heavier bullet than the k-hornet and one can see that the k-hornet tends to develop higher pressure than the hornet. The same may apply to the 7.62x39 in that the expansion ratio is less favourable but at lower load levels it might be just fine. And yes, the hornet loves Lil'Gun. The hornet with Lil'Gun seems to out perform the fireball with Lil'Gun!?? That's with top end loads. I get 2740 fps with 55gr bullets with my hornet. (At that level the barrel stays cool but a slightly lesser charge heats it considerably - weird stuff that Lil'Gun).

[DrCaveman]

Wow. Good info, though I'm not totally sure what to make of it.

Keep it coming everyone, it seems that Lil gun may warrant a loading manual in and of itself!

Looks like my rounds won't get shot til tomorrow morn, but I am optimistic. I will try to post pics (if it stays on paper!)

[Rangefinder]

Another thing to look for is 30-30 load data for lil' gun. 30-30 load data is all but directly transferable to 7.62x39 loading.

[DrCaveman]

I think I may have found a winner in 7.62x39 (at least until I can find some AA1680 locally). Now I just gotta try it with my cast!


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_226994fd6a25ec0088.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5572)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_226994fd6a25f228fa.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5573)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_226994fd6a18d4bfb4.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5566)

Seems to like the upper end a little better, though it shoots a little high. I will probably not exceed 24 gr, but try out a ladder-type routine from maybe 22.5-24. Like I keep saying, maybe I will get a chronograph soon... hmmm I have a birthday coming up...

BTW I do not consider myself a top-notch marksman, so any of y'all who do should expect better results. FWIW I get sub moa groups @ 100 yds with Yugo surplus. Obviously I am not there yet with this load, but I am happy.

Anyway, I would consider this an endorsement for Lil Gun in 7.62x39, at about the same powder charge as AA1680. Pressure signs were non-existent, and the recoil/report seemed very similar to factory (milsurp) ammo.

[leadman]

Lil' Gun is kinda strange as far as recoil in a handgun goes. I have a Ruger SBH hunter in 41 mag. 20grs of 296 is 100 fps slower than 17.6grs of Lil'Gun. Recoil with Lil'Gun is much faster and the gun comes back farther.
I have tried it in the 22 K-Hornet and it is fast but the accuracy was not as good as with 680.

As far as burning rate of Lil'Gun being close to 680 I think it depends entirely on the case. In the 41mag 680 is dirty and velocity low. 680 in the 45 Colt barely burns, bu Lil'Gun works very well.
I'm not sure I want to pursue further uses of Lil'Gun as there are other powders that seem to work better in some cases.

[DrCaveman]

Resurrection of old thread with my results of using Lil gun with my cast.

This must be one of the strangest powders on the market. Pressure variations seem to exist at an absurd frequency. I was warned by other, much wiser and experienced members of this forum that this was the case, and I would have been smart to have listened.

Fortunately nothing dramatic happened to me or my gun, but I got to see what a real stuck bolt and fully ejected primer was like. My wording here may be unclear, but the layman's description is that when I ejected the case, the primer was no longer in the case. It fell out along with the case. And the second time it happened (yeah stupid) the bolt was so difficult to open that I had to whack it with a naked hammer handle.

Finally got the gun up and running again but I probably caused some wear and tear that was totally unnecessary. Subsequently realized that my reloder7 load was pretty darn nice, and very accurate.

Load with Lil gun was 22.0 gr, in front of lee 160 TL. I would strongly recommend AGAINST this load to anyone seeking: accuracy, consistency, safety, or gun longevity. If you don't value any of those things, then go ahead. Chrono showed 2100 fps average.

Load with reloder7 was also 22 gr. Great results, chrono'd at about 1800 fps. Try this one, it worked great for me.

Lesson of the day (for those hardheaded adventurers like me): listen to the things that senior members on this forum say. It is of course up to YOU to decide who is 'senior' but pretty soon you start seeing who is speaking from limited experience (me) and those who really know their $tuff.

Be safe, happy new year to all.

[nhrifle]

I've had great results with AA5744 in the AKs and SKS I have loaded for. Something to try.

[Fishman]

Thanks for the update and glad you are ok!

[uscra112]

Lil'Gun is a lot faster than RL7. Not too surprised that you got high pressure loading it to equal weight as RL-7. Not the powder's fault ! It's also a good bit faster than 1680. Not a "close match" at all. If you want a Hodgdon alternate to 1680, it's 4198.

Where did you get that 22 grain load? That source ought to be on your blacklist for the rest of eternity.

[Nobade]

Looking at that 22gr, load on Quickload, it predicts about 45,000 psi. Which should be safe, but beyond what a cast boolit should normally shoot well at. But Lil' Gun is designed to work at much lower pressure, maybe 35,000 psi. I have seen this with other powders as well; once you exceed the pressure it is designed to work in, it starts to get very touchy and each shot has a very wide variation in pressure. If you drop that charge back to 16 - 17gr, in the 7.62x39, and possibly add a touch of dacron fluff to hold it back against the primer, I think you will find it works very well. I even have tried it in my 45-70 with very good accuracy, by keeping the pressure down where it is designed to run.

[MT Chambers]

Lil gun caused some erosion issues due to high heat in revolvers chambered for the .454 Casull, so i never tried it in my revolvers, earlier use of it in my .300 whisper boltgun showed some inconsistency in determining pressure visually.

[klenke.ryan]

8 years later, but still this thread has been very useful to me in terms of a starting place to load. I bought 8lbs of LilGun and wanted to use it in 7.62x39 with my Lee C312-155 bullets. OAL 2.11 inches with Lee factory crimp. Bullets GC and PC coww. Fired from 16" AR. Here's what I found:

15.0: 1686 fps
15.5: 1749 fps
16.0: 1798 fps
16.5: 1850 fps
17.0: 1900 fps
17.5: 1925 fps
18.0: 1973 fps
18.5: 2000 fps
19.0: 2057 fps

Groups up to 17.0 grains were 5 shots, 17.5-19.0 were 3 shot groups. Group size was fairly large at the slower velocities and tightened up with velocity. 18.5 grains had the smallest SD and a decent group size. Since this is just a plinking bullet, I may stick with 18.5 grains LG.

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