Question about CR lube and cold?

[Canuck Bob]

I am gearing up for cast shooting in rifles only, 32-20, 303 Brit, 32 Special, and 444. I've read glowing reports on CR but some mention a touch of problems when it is cold.

It gets cold were I live on occasion. How do folks mod CR for the cold? I want a single lube for all my needs so hoping to use CR with some mod. I plan the bulk lube method and pouring lube in RCBS sizer rather than bother with moulded tubes of lube.

Right now I'm planning mid range loads and my molds are GCed. My shooting volume is modest so I will use checks. High cast velocities above 1800 aren't in my near future if ever. I don't hunt much so I'm using J bullets for the occasional woods loafing or back country camp protection load.

[runfiverun]

the carnuba is what gives you the issues in the cold.
you could try a pao type oil,or a stearated mineral oil, to make up the difference.

[Canuck Bob]

I've been doing a lot of searching here. It appears maybe White Label BAC or +2500 might work alone or as an additive.

I am learning a bunch about smoke, sticky bullets, sizer heating, and such. I'm not asking for much, just a super clean non-sticky lube that sticks in a bullet groove and works from -20 to 100F as well as flows in a sizer and is cheap! Typical greenhorn I guess, a lube that does everything perfectly in any circumstance!

One thing for sure, folks really like White Label, both the product and the folks involved. I'm thinking BAC would be simple and effective. I do want a carnuba content, opinions?

[geargnasher]

Bob, check out the "extreme lube" sticky, there are a few of us looking for the same thing you are, and you can see well over 500 posts a couple thousand rounds downrange testing several dozen formulas attempting to get there. Not there yet, but we're just now starting to get the understanding of what IS needed in such a lube. Knowing the properties a lube must have is the hard part, finding things to give it those properties is fairly easy.

Gear

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks Gear..., I read your intro and will settle down to study the whole thread. I didn't research that thread because I thought it was aimed at the extreme velocity crowd. Once again assuming something without investigation failed me, you would think 60 years of that would teach a man a lesson!

[geargnasher]

I used the word "Extreme" in the same sprit as Hodgdon uses with that particular line of smokeless powder. Extreme consistency is the thing, to not have to change components or rework loads for different temperature ranges. Essentially, the task is to create a formula that will shoot with the best rifle lubes we have, but do it in the heat and in the cold the same way, and minimize bore pre-fouling requirements and cold-barrel flyers. A lot of the success or failure of any lube to do this has to do with factors other than lube but that affect lube, such as rifling design, lube groove design, throat fit/seal, hardness of the case necks (harder tends to lose less lube past the boolit before the boolit gets engraved), and a myriad of other things.

Lube isn't the whole answer to the question, but lube alone can make or break a good load, and weather can make or break a good lube, so we feel it's a very important component to get right. We're trying to fix that, but it will be a while, we're testing a few things out that show promise, but have to be tested in a variety of guns by a bunch of different people and of course in some pretty extreme weather conditions. Maybe by next spring we'll have either something that works or have proven you really do need two different lubes.

Gear

[randyrat]

Just use my TAC#1 Bulk or hollow sticks
Almost smoke free- most lubes smoke like a heck
I have to bring Mosquito repellent with me in the summer time using this lube
Works great in all temps all calibers. I live and shoot/hunt in Wisconsin (Extreme cold and warm temps)
No heat needed when you use it in a lube sizer
Sticks on cast lead boolits and stays on
Has a pleasant odor
Leaves your bore nice N shiny (Carnauba wax added)
Low toxicity ingredients
Give it a try for extreme cold temps and use the CR for normal temps. It may throw you off a bit but you might be surprised how close the groups are.

[btroj]

I don't find much issue with CR in cold weather with large diameter, heavy bullets like in a 45-70. My 32-20 is a different story. Easy to have the first couple over an inch out at 50 yards. By 4 rounds the barrel is warm enou to put them in the group. Let the barrel cool and it is throwing a few flyers again.

I have had no problems with MML in cold weather, it was developed to prevent just that.

In the end, only your guns can tell you what you need to know.

[Doc Highwall]

I bought some of Lars 2700 for warm weather and high velocity in 22,24 and 30 cal. What would be about the lowest temperature this would be good for 50 deg?

[btroj]

Never used the 2700. I have issues with CR below 40 to 50 degrees.
It isn't a problem wi leading, it is cold barrel flyers. If you are shooting at the range and can fire a few before going for group then all these lubes are fine. It is when you need the first shot on target, every time, that it is a problem.
I would not hunt squirrels in the cold with my 32-20 using Car, I wouldn't be getting the accuracy I need. With MMl that isn't an issue. In the summer, CR would be fine.

[870TC]

My favorite cold weather lube (MN), so far is BAC. Have not tried it in the heat, so have no info on that. Just bought some Tac#1 to try, have yet to get to the range with it.

[runfiverun]

the lower the carnuba the lower the temp it will affect the lube.
i make my bac by using a stick of carnuba red two sticks worth of b-wax and 25% alox with some lanolin.
it's a fairly hard lube and needs some heat but once the bbl is warm it is a very accurate lube.
i have shot it in some cold [-20] weather.
it needed a couple of shots in the warm weather to recondition the bbl too.

[randyrat]

"the lower the carnuba the lower the temp it will affect the lube."

Can you explain that to me, I believe we are are on the same track, thinking the same thing.

I believe there is a limit to the amount of Carnauba that can be used for extreme cold weather.

[runfiverun]

randy it's the percentages game.
remember the lanolin and alcohol i used to take the tack out of carnuba red?
your theory was it was working on the fats in the carnuba
i was thinking about it modifying the alcohols in the b-wax.
anyway the fats in the carnuba react to temperature just like fresh made chicken stock separates in the fridge.
making the lube thicker in the cold [the opposite reaction than we want]

[geargnasher]

Also, Carnauba is clingy as heck, and lays down a thin coat of itself in the bore just like it does on a paint job. This layer is applied hot, then cools, leaving a certain finish to the bore. That finish has different friction characteristics when cold, the more carnauba content of the lube, the worse the effect. I assume the effect is worse with higher carnauba percentages because the layer in the barrel is thicker, but I can't quantify that since I haven't actually measured it. I also theorize that the friction characteristics of a "carnauba'd" bore are different still below freezing because of the non-existent humidity level in a frozen barrel. Once a shot or two is fired, the heat brings humidity back inside the bore and it begins to act like it would at warmer temperatures.

If you could keep the barrel and ammo frozen through a string of shots, the POI would be slightly different from warmer weather groups, but probably would be at least as accurate. The problem is what happens when temperature changes the friction characteristics of the bore from one shot to the next, and als changes the characterisics of the lube in the grooves if the ammo is in a frozen magazine and not in your warm pocket.

Gear

[famdoc2892]

OK, so the key question is, which White Label lube most closely approximates FWFL for cold-weather first-shot hunting when warming the barrel is not a practical option? Does BAC still have too much carnauba compared to 50-50?

[btroj]

BAC is still going to be an issue.
MML was designed specifically to prevent the cold barrel flyer problem. Being that the developer is from Michigan he knows cold weather.

I have not tried Felix lube in cold weather enough to know what it does in that regard.

[runfiverun]

the castor oil in felix lube will do the same thing.
almost all the traditional lubes have a cold/hot weather issue.
one way or the other you give up something,that is what prompted the "quest"
we are trying to open the window on temperature as far as possible and keep the first cold bbl shot as close to the group as we can.

one additive i really like is atf it is stable across the 100* temp window we are looking at.
and lowering the wax content will help in lowering the window.
that is how our attention was turned to other pao's,the thickening of the grease [was/is the key to lowering the wax content]
keeping the visc of the lube stable over the temp window is key.
you are gonna have some thickening/thinning at the extremes,using the most inert ingredients possible will combat not only the visc change but also the bbl's condition and the first shot flyer.

[paul h]

After emailing White Label with my low temp concern, he said to go with BAC, so I ordered a dozen sticks. I still have a bit of lbt soft in my sizer, but as soon as I use that up I'll be switching to BAC. I've used lithi-bee in freezing temps and it worked fine. I don't recall doing any cast bullet shooting in sub zero temps, my motivation to go the range tends to rapidly drop off when temps are approach zero.

[bruce381]

My feeling is that the wax's and fats in some lubes when cold will form a hard layer in the barrel. As such raise pressure and have little or no lubrication value untill the barrel warms up after a few shots. Then when warm the layer is softer or even liquid which changes the friction value so shot are "OFF"

[JesterGrin_1]

This is just a question or a wrench depending on how one looks at it lol.

But what about 45/45/10 or to say Alox/JPW/Mineral Spirits?

[geargnasher]

This is just a question or a wrench depending on how one looks at it lol.

But what about 45/45/10 or to say Alox/JPW/Mineral Spirits?

Well, some of us have proven to our own satisfaction that Alox, paraffin, and carnauba wax are some of the most undesirable lube components for consistent bore condition though wide tempertures, so you can assume my position on that!

Gear

[btroj]

I like the 45/45/10 formula for high volume handgun use. I have loaded a few thousand 38 special lubed with it and had good results.
I have no plans to,use it for rifle outside of my rd 175 mould for my Marlin 357. if I was going to use that bullet for deer hunting in the cold I would use a different lube.

[milprileb]

Why not use WL 2500 rifle lube ? Goes on as easy as BAC.

[Canuck Bob]

I've been busy so just getting back to this.

This has been an education. Thank you.

MML is mentioned. I tried a search and MML is referred to but not its source. What is it, commercial or homemade?

[btroj]

It is Mikes Modified Lithium, developed by 357 Maximum. Basically a lithium grease, beeswax, and microwax. I bought some direct from 357Max last year, he put some extra up for sale. I have been happy with it so far.

[RobS]

I've been busy so just getting back to this.

This has been an education. Thank you.

MML is mentioned. I tried a search and MML is referred to but not its source. What is it, commercial or homemade?

Homemade:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=666711&highlight=MML#post666711