38-40 for rifles

[DarthTater]

I've been loading .38-40s for my Colt Lightning rifle, circa 1884 for about a year. I don't shoot it a lot, but enough that I'd rather be casting my own rather than buying them.

The question that I have is which mould to get. It seems that most of them are designed with revolvers in mind. I'm concerned that the resulting boolits aren't going to carry enough lube for the much longer rifle barrel.

I shoot on the 100 yard and 150 yard line. I'd really like to shoot cowboy pistol cartridge silhouettes, but the NRA hasn't seen fit to allow the Lightning to compete...but that's a fight for another day.

Anyway, any suggestions for moulds? I've looked at Big Lube, Accurate and Lyman. I just can't make a decision!

[Don McDowell]

I can't help but think the RCBS 180 might just carry enough lube for a rifle barrel. I sure like the way it works in my handgun.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

The Lee 40 caliber 175 grain SWC will work in a 38-40. Size to .401" and tumble lube with 45/45/10.

[Chill Wills]

The Lee 40 caliber 175 grain SWC will work in a 38-40. Size to .401" and tumble lube with 45/45/10.

Because this post is in the Black Powder Cartridge area I am thinking the fuel will be Black and so your question about how much lube a bullet design will hold.

This begs the question ... what are you going to do about fouling control? If nothing and trying to shoot a string of shots, that changes the lube requirements.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

I use the Dick Dastardly Big Lubes, over Goex 2f, from Springfield in my Original 1894 Marlin Short Rifle. Can shoot 6 stages no problems.

Sam :D

[Nobade]

Something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-190C-D.png
will likely be more accurate at longer range but require better quality powder than something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-185C-D.png
which will allow use of cheap powder without fouling out, but not fly as well.

I'd get both and see which worked better.

[rbertalotto]

This tread is right up my ally!

I recently reconditioned an 1873 Winchester in 38-40. After buying five molds I finally figured it out!

The BEST mold on the market for the 38-40 if you are shooting BP, is the Big Lube.....PERIOD!

I have the Lyman (grease groves too small, but it is the most Period Correct bullet)
The RCBS (great for smokeless, but shallow grease groves for BP)
Lee (You need to cut your brass down so the roll crimp works. Only good for smokeless as it is tumble lube with VERY shallow grease groves....forgetaboutit!)

The BIG LUBE is fantastic. Zero fouling after 60 rounds of CAS shooting. Excellent accuracy! Can be used with smokeless as the crimp groove is in the correct place.

Dick will sell you sample bullets to try and then deduct the cost for a mold if you decide to buy one. Don't get no better!

[Don McDowell]

This tread is right up my ally!

I I have the Lyman (grease groves too small, but it is the most Period Correct bullet)
!

Sorta begs the question how in the world did those old dead guys ever get by before the 100 and some odd years passed until someone modified the T/C maxiball for CAS shooting don't it?

[DarthTater]

Thanks for the replies, fellas.

Chill Wills, your question about fouling control is part and parcel of my situation. I thought that I'd give Dick Dastardly's Pearl Lube a try, since he claims that it keeps fouling down to a minimum. The most that I shoot is ten rounds before running a patch down the bore.

As for the Big Lube boolit, the only concern that I have is its accuracy at 100 yards or so. It seems like it's an excellent design for short range CAS shooting and I like that big ol' grease groove. Nobade, I looked at the Accurate 40-190C and it seemed like it might be a better design for "reaching out", so to speak. I just want to be sure that by the time the boolit gets to the muzzle it's still steel-on-lube and not leading up the barrel.

Maybe I'm just overthinking this - I don't know. I suppose that the thing to do is buy something like the Big Lube and something like the 40-190C and compare. I keep telling myself that I can't have too many moulds. Right?

[Don McDowell]

I measured one of the bullets from my rcbs 180 , 1/3 of the "bearing surface" is the lube groove. A quality lube in a bullet sized properly for the bore, and there should be no problems in a rifle.

[Boz330]

I doubt that the big lube groove boolit would be a problem accuracy wise at a 100yd. I have the RCBS mold and while I haven't shot it with BP from my 92 it rang a gong consistently at 175yd.

Bob

[WARD O]

I recently purchased an Accurate 40-185 C which is his big lube groove boolit. I haven't had much range time yet with it for a meaningful comment. I shot a few through an original 73 and was getting 2-3" at 50 yards - needs more testing. I have several vintage 38-40's and when time permits will get in some testing.

I did try one of the big lube boolits from NOE in a current Marlin 44-40 with black powder and groups were hanging around 3" at 50 yards. This rifle can shoot better as I have done it with smokeless.

At the moment I am a thinking that these boolits may take a little more experiementing to get them to shoot well. There have been other threads here that suggest fine accuracy is possible with these boolits and real black powder. I believe you may just have to play around with alloy and see what results.

But what are you after for accuracy? Like was mentioned, there is acceptable accuracy for CAS and then there is shooting for groups at 100 yards.

ward

[Old-Win]

What do you 38-40 shooters think is the maximum distance that you can accurately shoot your rifles. Accurate meaning 4" at a 100yds. Is the 44-40 more capable?

[Don McDowell]

Winchester claimed the 38wcf accurate to 300 yds. I would think that to still be the case when paired with a good bullet.
The biggest problem with attaining "good" accuracy with the big lube type bullets at 50 yds and beyond evolves around the center chank in the bottom of that behemoth lube groove. The nose will not set back the same at each shot, thereby you won't get an equal rotational balance and spin with them.
They work great for what they were intended for, but they weren't particularly designed for highend accurate shooting.

[DarthTater]

As far as accuracy goes, if I can knock over a steel turkey at 100 meters, I'm happy. I get the impression that the Big Lube types will do the job.

As to how far can I shoot the .38-40, 150 yards is tops for me. At that range I probably miss more than I hit. I don't know how far great grandpa shot, but for a well-used 130 year old rifle (and 50 year old eyes), I'm good with that.

[Old-Win]

I'm putting together an 1892 Winchester in 38-40 to shoot in our pistol caliber silhouette matches and was hoping it would work out to 200 yds. Our first match is in July.

[WARD O]

Shooting my Marlin 94 circa 1906 in 38-40 with a 180 cast with 9 grain of Herco I have had 100 yard groups slightly over 2" using a tang sight. The rifle does shoot reasonably well.

I haven't done much work with this rifle and black powder yet but this guy is why I bought the mould. With the big open center, I wondered about the setback changing the boolit enough to hurt accuracy.

Wasn't there a recent thread here about someone shooting 44-40 or 38-40 with black powder and doing great on sillywets without blow tubing or anything?

ward

[w30wcf]

with the Accurate 43-215C. I worked with Accurate on this design which has the nose profile of the original 44-40 bullet which shoots well at close and long distances. The 40-185C is the same design scaled to the 38-40.

They both have the additional lube capacity to run trouble free in a 24" barrel with black powder. I tested prototype bullets that I had made to determine the ideal lube capacity to do the job which resulted in a more balanced bullet.

At 200 yards, the 43-215C produced a 10 shot group of less than 6" with a majority of the rounds inside 4". The test rifle was a Marlin 44-40 Cowboy Ltd with a 4X scope on board.

At 300 meters (327 yards) in good conditions, the 43-215C produced these results
cell phone placed for size comparison
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/Acccurate43-215C.jpg

I would expect that the 40-185C should produce similar results once the correct load is found......

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

I've been loading .38-40s for my Colt Lightning rifle, circa 1884 for about a year. I don't shoot it a lot, but enough that I'd rather be casting my own rather than buying them.

The question that I have is which mould to get. It seems that most of them are designed with revolvers in mind. I'm concerned that the resulting boolits aren't going to carry enough lube for the much longer rifle barrel.

I shoot on the 100 yard and 150 yard line. I'd really like to shoot cowboy pistol cartridge silhouettes, but the NRA hasn't seen fit to allow the Lightning to compete...but that's a fight for another day.

Anyway, any suggestions for moulds? I've looked at Big Lube, Accurate and Lyman. I just can't make a decision!

For any black powder, I would suggest the Accurate 40-185C for use in a rifle based on the amount of testing I have done in the 44-40 that I mentioned in the previous thread.

My experience with the "Big Lube" 44-40 bullet is that it is not as accurate as the Accurate 43-215C at 100+ yards giving groups that run at least 50% bigger and more as the distance increases. I would imagine that the same might be true of the 38-40 "Big Lube" but I do not know for sure if that would be the case. The Accurate mold follows the profile of the original 38-40 and 44-40 bullets with the correct lube capacity to make the 24" trip. The "Big Lube" bullets have a larger meplat and the 44-40 bullet, carries a bit more lube than is necessary in my testing. I don't know about the 38-40.

The other advantage in buying a mold from Accurate is that you can specify the bullet diameter that you need and Tom will provide the mold to cast to your dimension. Not so with the others.......

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-190C-D.png
will likely be more accurate at longer range but require better quality powder than something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-185C-D.png
which will allow use of cheap powder without fouling out, but not fly as well.

I'd get both and see which worked better.

Nobade,
Thank you for posting the links. When I developed the 43-215C based on the testing I had done, my goal was to try and equal the downrange accuracy of the original 44-40 two groove bullet and to shoot a minimum of 50 rounds accurately with no barrel "foul out" .

As it turned out, thankfully, the 43-215C lived up to those expectations. The same might just be true of its smaller brother, the 40-185C.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

This tread is right up my ally!

.....The BEST mold on the market for the 38-40 if you are shooting BP, is the Big Lube.....PERIOD!


Roy,
For close in CAS shooting the "Big Lube" bullets do work great. BUT.....for longer distance shooting at 100+ yards that some folks like to do, the Accurate 40-185C would be the best choice to deliver better accuracy for many shots.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

I'm putting together an 1892 Winchester in 38-40 to shoot in our pistol caliber silhouette matches and was hoping it would work out to 200 yds. Our first match is in July.

What do you 38-40 shooters think is the maximum distance that you can accurately shoot your rifles. Accurate meaning 4" at a 100yds. Is the 44-40 more capable?


NEAT! The NRA Cowboy Pistol Cartridge silhouette is fired out to 100 meters (110 yards). No problem with the 100 Meter rams. :smile:,

The NRA Cowboy Rifle Silhouette is fired out to 200 Meters. If you use your 38-40 there, you will likely have a problem knocking down the 55# ram at that distance.....unless they are set at the proper topple point. No problem on the 50M chickens, 100M Javelina or 150M turkeys though.

As Don indicated, Winchester claimed accuracy out to 300 yards for the 38-40. They also claimed the 44-40 to be accurate to that distance as well. I have experience with the 44-40 at a bit beyond that distance and Winchester was right. I would expect real world experience to be the same for the 38-40.

Have fun!

w30wcf

[John Boy]

The BEST mold on the market for the 38-40 if you are shooting BP, is the Big Lube.....PERIOD! Roy, have any target group pictures using the Big Lube 38-40 at 200 & 300yds? It's purpose of design is lube capacity.

If you really want a bullet that carries accuracy out to 300yds, may I suggest these molds:
* Ideal 375166
* Ideal 37584
* Ideal 375300
These are all 300+ gr BPCR bullets and were used for decades before Lyman bought out Ideal and eliminated from production because of the demise of BP shooters

[Nobade]

You might have a tough time getting those 38-55 boolits to work in a 38-40......

[Springfield]

The Big Lube 38-40 holds LOTS of lube and has a large meplat, probably more of both than necessary for a longer range bullet. Be interesting to take one and make the base longer by taking out some lube space to add weight and see if it was better at knocking over rams and such.

[brudford]

Several years ago I purchased a Uberti 1885 Low Wall new . I did alot of load development with this round . Everything from Bulleyse ,Unique powders and eventually settled just on Goex 2ff BP . Somone stated earlier that alot of the other moulds are designed with pistol loads in mind they are correct sir ! I started with a Lee mold 40 S&W or 10mm Auto . 175 gr. .401 the same as a 38-40 bullet . Accuracy was terrible could not get any lube to stick in the shallow grove ,I beleive this bullet works only with Lee's tumble lube method .This is a pistol bullet period . Bought the Lyman 38-40 WCF mold # 401043AV 175 gr flat nose . Lyman even has this orignal bullet listed under rifle bullets . For some reason alot of shooters think the 38-40 WCF was designed as a pistol round ? Lube sticks in the groove and accuracy is great . Cast the bullets from the molds that this cartridge was designed for and you cannot go wrong . If you want to try the Big lube bullet go ahead , but why would you when the Lyman , the orignal mold for the 38WCF is all you will ever need . My BP lube of Beeswax ,olive oil, some Crisco and a little Lanolin sticks very well in the Lyman groove .

[dexterblack]

I use the Lyman 041043 mold and w.w. + a little tin. Charge is about 33 grains of goex ffg, medium compression. Lube is B.P. Gold. Gun is a Whitney Kennedy with a 24" barrel. Although there's not much lube showing on exterior muzzle, there's not a leading problem.

I think it's a pretty accurate round. I'm recently back to shooting after a decades-long hiatus, so I haven't had the chance to shoot the gun over 100 yards. It has a "wiggly" rear lyman aperture sight, but it still groups inside an 8" circle. (old gun, old boolit design!)

[Hang Fire]

I've been loading .38-40s for my Colt Lightning rifle, circa 1884 for about a year. I don't shoot it a lot, but enough that I'd rather be casting my own rather than buying them.

The question that I have is which mould to get. It seems that most of them are designed with revolvers in mind. I'm concerned that the resulting boolits aren't going to carry enough lube for the much longer rifle barrel.

I shoot on the 100 yard and 150 yard line. I'd really like to shoot cowboy pistol cartridge silhouettes, but the NRA hasn't seen fit to allow the Lightning to compete...but that's a fight for another day.

Anyway, any suggestions for moulds? I've looked at Big Lube, Accurate and Lyman. I just can't make a decision!

Both rifles and handguns of the latter 1800s combo cartridge era, were designed to shoot the same style boolit as to weight and design, as that was the intention for such from the get go.

Hard to feature some lawman or outlaw in 1880 having a 1873 Winchester and Colt in .44-40, carrying cartridges with different bullet designs for rifle and revolver.

[rbertalotto]

Just got home from the range. Shooting at the turkey silhouette at 200 yards. I hit it 18 * out of 30 rounds of hand. This is with my 1873 built in 1884. Shooting the big lube bullet with 35 grains of black powder. This rifle and cartridge will group at 1 inch at 100 yards. You can read all about this rifle on my website. Www.rvbprecision.com

[Old-Win]

My 1892 winchester project in 38-40 is coming along nicely and should be shootable in a couple of weeks. I'll be using black powder in some of the loads and was wondering what you guys that shoot black use for a wad? I've got .410's" for my 40-70. Are they too large? Do any of you know of a source for something like .402" to .403" diamter wads. Bob

[Don McDowell]

Buffalo Arms has them, if nothing else you could get a wad punch from them to make your own.
You can probably also order them direct from John Walters.

[Old-Win]

Don, BACO sells .410" diameter wads for a .408" diameter bullet. I'm thinking they will be too large for the .400" diameter bullet in the 38-40. I'm hoping some guys that shoot black in the 38-40 has some info that might help me out. Bob

[Don McDowell]

I shoot black in the 38-40.I have a wad punch that you whack with a hammer that works well.
BACO sells two 40 cal wads, one for rifles at .410 and one smaller. They also sell wad punches that will work fine to punch your own.
Call them and tell them what you want, or google up John Walters and tell him what you are needing.
You might also check with Track of the Wolf.

[Don McDowell]

Track sells these http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/173/2/WAD-405-B

[Old-Win]

Thanks Don, I believe the Baco punch is what I'll use. I've been using WWd's in all my rifles and his are a couple of thousandths over groove so that Baco punch at .403" should work.

[Don McDowell]

The nice thing about a punch the right size is the variety of stuff you can use for wads.

[Old-Win]

Finished my 92 Win. project and have done some shooting with both smokeless and black. The blackpowder load shot very well. 34.5 gr of 1 1/2 behind the Lyman bullet. We had a buffalo gong match last weekend so got to shoot it at some long range targets. I hit the 24" gong 5 times in a row at 300 yds but only hit the the 18" once. The smokeless attempts have been dismal with extreme vertical spreads of 2-3' at those distances. You could hear a difference in detonation from shot to shot because of powder position. Looking for a good smokeless powder load that will fill most of the case as 2400 and Accurate #7 don't. Bob

[w30wcf]

Old Win,
Try RL7. A capacity load works very well in my 44-40.
Velocity will likely be around 1,500 f.p.s. in your 38-40.

w30wcf