Cast in my "Family Heirloom" .444?

[Todd N.]

Hello gents!
I'm new here, but I've been reading your info for a while. Good stuff!

A few years ago my dad gave me his prized Marlin .444. Poor health has made him move away from rifles, shotguns and hunting ( notice that the old Navy vet didn't give up his beloved COLT 1911?) He always shot jacketed factory stuff in it since he bought it new in 1969, and I have done the same since I got it.

But I'm liking the cast stuff I'm shooting it out of my .41 Mag Blackhawk so much (and getting UNREAL accuracy) that I want to start shooting cast in most of my other guns. Especially the .444! But I need a little guidance to do this right. I don't cast, but am an experienced reloader.

My Marlin slugs out at .4305". What size bullets should I start working with? This effort is going to work toward dialing this rifle in (again) as my woods elk rifle, so I'll be leaning toward heavier bullets- gas checks?- and fairly energetic powder loads.
FWIW, I'm doing the same process on an " ugly old dog" - Colombian Mauser Modelo 1950 Calibre .30-'06.- this one slugs at .3105".

I thank you all in advance for the knowledge you can share with me on my projects.

Todd

[Ranch Dog]

Welcome, it's always great to meet another 444 Marlin hunter. You will be best served with .432" boolits.

Despite having all the Marlin big-game calibers, the 444 Marlin is my first choice and I've spent a considerable amount of time with the rifles over the last 7 years. There is a couple of good on-line articles worth reading, the most notable is a series of three written by Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets...

.444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part I (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17)
.444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part II (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19)
.444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Part III (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28)

A lot of 444 shooters haven been waiting for Marshall to follow up with additional parts but his business keeps him busy. Another good 444 cast boolit read is:

The .444 Marlin, by Glen E. Fryxell (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/444marlin.htm)

I don't see many of the rifles in my neck of the woods. In fact, I take a lot of ribbing about shooting a "deep woods" rifle on the open coastal plains of South Texas. This is the land of the Sendero Rifles, magnums, everyone is always suprized to see my old 444. I shoot a 1972 rifle because that is the year I graduated from High School and at that time I wanted to buy one so bad I could taste it! There wasn't money for new rifles and I remember the older fellows in deer camp laughing about me wanting that "destined to be obsolete" 444!

[Todd N.]

Michael,
It's good to finally meet you; I've been reading on your work for quite some time- very impressive!
If you have time to answer couple of questions, I'd sure appreciate the benefit of your experience...

1) Is seating depth as critical of a factor with CB's as it is with jacketed? I have a Savage 110 in .270 Win that I've hunted with for over 25 years. It always gave good results with book specs, but when I heeded the advice of my favorite uncle and seated bullets further out, accuracy was amazing. Does this concept apply to the Marlin and to CB's ?

2) Do you have any thoughts about the range of bullet weights that I can use? I am looking toward the HEAVY end of the spectrum for this rifle. Or maybe I should be looking for what works most efficiently?

Thanks-

Todd

[Ranch Dog]

I had to go take care of somethings...

Your early rifle will have the 1:38 twist, not a big deal at all until you get to the really heavy boolits. I have shot boolits up to 415-grains but feel the cartridge is at it's best with boolits in the 265 to 300-grain range. Heavier boolits require deeper seating and robs powder capacity. With the heaviest boolits, near or above 400-grains, you also might have to look at case "neck" reaming. The 444 Marlin case will have a slight bulge with the cast boolits and these heavy boolits seated deep might not chamber without removing some of the thickness of the case walls. I special ordered a neck reamer from K&M but decided it just wasn't worth the trouble.

[dubber123]

Another thing perhaps worth mentioning is to be sure to clean the bore of all previous copper fouling before developing any cast loads. I have always done it, but only because everyone here says copper fouling kills lead bullet accuracy.

[Todd N.]

"... the cartridge is at it's best with boolits in the 265 to 300-grain range."

That's sorta what I've always believed based on reading material my dad and I collected over the years. And that's OK considering I've used the 300gr XTP for elk with success.

I've done some work with IMR4895 and judged it as an average powder. Am I on the right track here or should I be looking in a different direction for use with 280/290/300gr?
Thanks-

Todd

BTW, my dad got that '69 vintage rifle 1 month after his divorce from my mom was final( she always said there was no $$$ for guns, but he managed to swing it on top of HER house and car payments, alimony, child support, and his own overhead [smilie=w: ) It remains the only weapon he ever bought new other than his last shotgun.

[Ranch Dog]

Todd,

I tend to favor H4198 for the performance level you indicated you might be looking for. I have shot H4895 in my 444s and it sits there with BLC2 and Varget. A full case delivers a lot of fire and smoke but the velocity and pressure are both low. It might be an accurate load for soft boolits but with water quenched WWs Benchmark, H4198, H322, and H335 are going to be the better choices.

I've been creating some loading data charts for my 45 caliber boolits and and once finished will move on to my 44 caliber boolits; 265, 285, and 300-grains. The pressure, capacity, and velocity trends of what I have posted and will continue to post for the 45-70 and 450 Marlin are very similar with the 444. I will start the work with the 44 Mag and 444 Marlin in June.

[Ranch Dog]

Another thing perhaps worth mentioning is to be sure to clean the bore of all previous copper fouling before developing any cast loads. I have always done it, but only because everyone here says copper fouling kills lead bullet accuracy.

Very good point dubber. I also think it is very important to have a very clean bore between loads during load development. There is much to understand about leading and pressure. A given load might set up fouling deposits that will effect the accuracy of subsequent loads if not removed.

[Todd N.]

Michael, that talk from both you and Dubber123 got me to thinking about bore deposits. I am VERY thorough about cleaning my firearms, not just because it's the thing to do but because like all tools, firearms work better when clean.

But there was the case of my Glock- more than 2000 rounds without cleaning- but that's a story for another thread...

Back on topic...

We are talking about using gas checked bullets, are we not? I don't yet have the knowledge to use plain- or bevel- base bullets at higher velocities. Or am I mixing apples and turnips?

Thanks-

Todd

[Ranch Dog]

Todd...

All I mess with are gas checked boolits.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Did a search for 444 Marlin and found this nice little thread. Todd, how about an update???

I've had a 444 Marlin for 15 years or so. It's a work-in-progress, as I'd like to get the barrel cut back to 20", the magazine tube extended to the end of the 20" bbl., and put in a better trigger. I did upgrade it with a Lyman Peep sight, buttstock cartridge sock, and I've taken off all the white line spacers and plan on thinning, re-fitting, bedding, and re-finishing the wood stock soon.

I have a real affection for "44s", and have had one of every caliber, except a 44 Henry RF, and a 44 Colt. I've got Russians, Americans, Specials, WCFs, Magnums, and the Marlin. Two of the reasons I like 44s so much are the seem to be very accurate with just about any ole (safe) load one throws together, and they also are so darn flexible.

For flexibility, the 444 is one of the best. I've developed the following loads for it:

250gr Black Talon (pulled from 44 Mag ammo) w/ full-load of IMR4198 (does about 2300fps) - This is my deer load.
280gr Swift A-Frame w/ full-load of H-322 (does about 2100fps) - This is my Elk, bear, and bigfoot load. :mrgreen:
285gr Lyman 429640 (Haven't got my group buy mould yet, but this will be my penetrator load, when I get a good load worked up with it. I've used 310gr cast for this, but since this bullet duplicates the A-Frame for weight - and probably powder charge and velocity - it will be my standard. Same sight setting for both loads, don't you know... Also, I don't like the recoil on me or the rifle of bullets 300gr and heavier.)
Shotshell - I load a WAA41 over a charge of Unique and use just the blue end cap off the Speer shot capsules seated to just shorter than the max OAL. This lets me get about 5/8oz. of shot in it. This load won't feed through the magazine (at least I haven't been able to get it to), but it is fun to single load and shoot clay birds with.
3 Round Ball - I use Unique and load three 160gr .430" round balls for a multi-ball load. I don't really have a use for this. It was just fun to do, and is fun to shoot. I suppose one could use it for Turkey hunting in a survival situation, but you could just as easily use a 240gr SWC with a light load for the same thing, and actually know where all your bullets are going... [smilie=1:

I have a bunch of other loads that are either developments that I quit on, because I settled on the above, or they are just a fun plinking/practice load.

I'd really like to hear how you've been doing with your family heirloom. (Boy, I REALLY hope my kids look at my guns that way!)

[chasw]

Todd: I suggest you start by trying bullets with varying weights and lengths, always with gas checks. You can buy a good variety from Cast Performance Bullets, Beartooth Bullets and Montana Bullet Works. Settle on a size and design before popping for an expensive 4-hold mold.

The 1 in 38 twist microgroove barrel in your stock rifle will likely go for the lighter bullets, starting with the 240 grainers. Because its a repeater, I suggest you stick to the LBT designs (no SWCs) and crimp with a taper crimp or Lee factory crimp over the beginning of the ogive.

My .444 Marlin has a 20" Douglas barrel with 1in24 twist, therefore it shoots best with 300 grainers. I like a full case of IMR 3031 and WLR primers for about 1750 fps. Heavier loads than that get into pain territory with my light saddle carbine. With lighter bullets such as the 240 grainers in your rifle you will want a faster powder, e.g., Reloder 7. Depending on your pain threshold, you may top out at about 2200 fps with 240 grainers. Good luck - CW