Advice on new mould

[WARD O]

I've been shooting my Shiloh Sharps for a number of years mostly with boolits cast from Lyman's Postell or Redding/Saeco's government moulds. I've been thinking about trying one of BACO's moulds but there are so many choices.

I would like a boolit to shoot in my 45-90 Shiloh Sharps exclusively with black powder. I would like to shoot to 500 yards and maybe, if I can find the range, a little farther.

Mostly I use a blow tube buy am planning on learning wiping techniques.

Suggestions on which one to choose would be welcome.

Thanks
ward

[Don McDowell]

If I were looking for a new grease groove bullet for the 45's, Ild really take a hard look at the 510 gr creedmoor bullet. Maybe the tapered driving band. It's heavy enough to make weight for the NRA long range matches that have weight and velocity limits. It's light enough it won't pound the snot out of you over a long days string, and should shoot reasonably well to the 1000 yd line.
With it's nose style it won't be sensative to nose slump with soft alloys, and looks like it will carry enough lube to keep the barrel in fine condition when using a top notch lube.
I have considered that mould on many occasions but I got off on the 44 caliber tangent, and so my 45's are just sitting, and the wife says I can't mess with her rifle and loads anymore, everything is working just the way she wants...

[John Boy]

Ild really take a hard look at the 510 gr creedmoor bullet. Yes in deed. A fine shooting long distance bullet. Consider buying the Paul Jones Creedmoor mold, the 45001. You won't regret it
http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/45_caliber.htm

[Don McDowell]

This is the mould from Baco that has caught my eye.http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160238&CAT=4157

[BRUCE MOULDS]

ward,
if you are planning on wiping, why not consider a pp bullet.
i have had my best success at long range with the baco 446545m, patched with seth cole canary yellow.
i compare this with a baco creedmoor and a paul jones money gg bullets.
others to look at include446525 and 446535.
you will not be able to blowtube with these bullets
the creedmoor design is easy to get to shoot, but shows the most wind deflection of the abovementioned.
pp bullets seem to have a less obnoxious form of recoil than gg when loaded with big charges.
in fact the 545 baco pp is more pleasant to shoot with 105 gn sw 1.5 than the 540 money gg with 84 gn sw 1.5 in my 45/2.4. don't ask me why.
the bullets bump up very well at 16:1 alloy, having lovely rifling imprints on them.
pp bullets seated out long allow big charges to minimize wind deflection. this can improve scores bigtime.
keep safe,
bruce.

[montana_charlie]

I've been shooting my Shiloh Sharps for a number of years mostly with boolits cast from Lyman's Postell or Redding/Saeco's government moulds. I've been thinking about trying one of BACO's moulds but there are so many choices.
If you look at the government bullet like a family sedan, and the Postell like a two-door coupe, the only thing left is a hot rod like the Money bullet.

But, what characteristic do you wish to change or improve?

CM

[wyoduster]

Because I don't know either... What is the big differences in the "postell" and the "money"bollets? What does one do better than the other?? ect.ect.ect.???

[montana_charlie]

The government bullet is the big old fat-fronted round nose. It could be made to shoot accurately enough to satisfy military requirements of the day, and it could impact with authority at long ranges.
So, it's a 'good bullet' for the 45/70, etc.

The Postel is meant for long range accuracy, as is the Paul Jones Creedmoor.
Both have slimmer noses than the government, and the Postell is a little slimmer than the Creedmoor.
A rifle that doesn't seem to like the Postel will usually do well with the Creedmoor, and visa versa.
Both designs produced good scores on the way far away targets, so they have reputations as 'good target bullets' for the 45/70, etc.

The Money bullet has a nose designed specifically for a high ballistic coefficient when used in the super sonic/trans sonic/sub sonic range that BPCR bullets have to perform in.
It is supposed to be given a muzzle velocity of about 1350 fps to get the most out of it, and it will maintain it's velocity and stability out to very long range better than will the Postel and Creedmoor.

If you rarely shoot beyond four or five hundred yards, the only advantage a Money nose will give you is a little better ability to buck wind ... due to the improved b.c.

[John Boy]

Money Bullet ...It is supposed to be given a muzzle velocity of about 1350 fps to get the most out of it, and it will maintain it's velocity and stability out to very long range better than will the Postel and Creedmoor.


A Cold, Windy, Rainy Day ... But The Money Bullet Flew! (http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13660)

[Texantothecore]

Nice analysis of the bullets available for long distance work.

[WARD O]

Thanks for all the good ideas. I like the idea of the 510 Creedmore - the lighter recoil does sound good yet it should do well at distance. I see BACO is out of stock at the moment. I called them and was told the mould will likely be available in about two weeks as they are doing moulds right now. I think I may just put one on order.

Don, after reading about your recent new PP mould from Accurate, I order a PP mould from Accurate and received it about a week ago. It is for 475 grains @ .441 (first casting dropped at .442) with a .28 meplat and I am working on getting it running in my Shiloh 26" 45-70 which is the rifle I use for hunting. I think this will do just fine for my Minnesota/Wisconsin deer hunting where ranges are short and the animals run from 100# on up - Nothing too large. I want to work on my PP skills and this seems like a good one for me.


MC - you got me thinking, what do I really want to change? I guess that casting with a Lyman mould leaves one thinking that there might be something better out there... There really is nothing wrong with my Lyman Postells - they shoot good. Reading on the forums, I hear a lot about the Money boolit - seems lots of fellas are using it and that makes it interesting. But there are lots of styles of Money boolits out there as well, what is the difference and how should I pick one? Do they all require wiping - is that part of what makes it a money boolit? Point me toward a good one to start with....

ward

[Don McDowell]

Ward when you get that patched bullet to running well, don't be real surprised if it doesn't shoot just as well at hunting distance as it does out to 6 maybe even 800 yds, and possibly beyond.

[montana_charlie]

But there are lots of styles of Money boolits out there as well, what is the difference and how should I pick one? Do they all require wiping - is that part of what makes it a money boolit?
The first one had no special name. Dan Theodore had developed a bullet design with a spherical nose that was 55% of caliber, and was connected to the bullet body with a tangent ogive arc of about 4 times the caliber.

This made a long-ish nose (on a .45 caliber bullet) of about .700". Couple that with a body of .750" and you get a bullet with pretty good balance, an improved ballistic coefficient, and a length that matches well with 18 twist rifling.

The first one also had 'mini-grooves'. That means the grease grooves were shallower than normally seen, in an effort to reduce drag.
Because the lube was in rather short supply, wiping between shots turned out to be a good idea.
Finally, that first one had reduced diameter driving bands in the two front locations in order to set the bullet deeper into the rifling.
It made for good bullet/bore alignment, but the primary reason was to allow enough room in a 45/70 case to pack enough powder to get muzzle velocity up to 1350 fps.

The guy who shot this first 'prototype' was Doc Lay, and he shot in the Shiloh 45/70 that he called his "Money Gun". He did so well in the first matches, everybody wanted that bullet design, and it just got called the Doc Lay Money Bullet.

Later, any bullet with the same nose carried the Money label.

The next version was the 'micro-mini-groove' bullet (with the Money nose), and it had such tiny grease grooves wiping between shots was a necessary evil.

I, too, got sucked up in the Money bullet whirlwind ... but I was just 'evolving' to paper patching. So, I took a diagram Dan drew for the 'Wasserberger Mile Bullet' and redrew it to give it a smooth shank and a specified diameter of .454".
Rick Kalynuik made that mould for me.

I know that Dan posted some drawings with driving bands that were not tapered.
They are suitable for cartridges longer than the 45/70 ... which have enough capacity to reach 1350 fps without setting the bullet out.

I think I have seen drawings ... or moulds ... that have the Money nose, but with normal-depth grease grooves. Those would not require wiping as a fouling control measure.

So, it's almost like a modular thing.
Start with the Money nose, and combine it with the kind of shank ... and type of grease groove ... that turns your crank.

CM

[Old-Win]

Nothing new has been developed with nose shapes in the last 130 years for the blackpowder rifle. If you can get your hands on a copy of the "Modern Sportsmans Gun and Rifle" vol. II written in 1882, you will see pictures of bullets with nose shapes exactly like we use today. Metford designed the nose shape of the so called "money" bullet. The Martini Henry bullet is just like our government bullet while the Webley looks lik the PJ Creedmoor and the Fraser like our Sharps pp. Another LR design is the Westcott used in the 45-78 Westcott which is similar to the Metford nose but with a flatter meplat. Very rare LR bullet.
Doc sure did make a name for that money bullet though.

[longranger]

The Paul Jones 45001 Creedmoor is perhaps the best balance between accuracy, fouling control, easiest of the custom molds to get match grade bullets(my experience).It would be my first choice for a custom mold. Learn to work that bullet, it is an outstanding bullet out to 500m.+ My Shiloh # 1, 30" barrel,with 69gr. of Swiss 1.5 into < 1.0 M.O.A. pretty regular. It's a friendly bullet with ample G.G. Less things to do with the PJ45001 than the Money bullet(fouling control).I use this bullet in my Ped. Gibbs sized 3 X down from .458-.449,it shoots better in the Gibbs than the Sharps and is a 1000 yd. bullet all day with 92grs. Swiss 1.5. I have with one P.J. mold adapted the bullets to 3 of my rifles with none having the same dia. req. It is also my bullet choice in .40 cal for my 40-70 SS, 63 grs. Swiss 1.5 I can cover the group size @ 500m. with the palm of my hand on a good day. I can load and shoot 13 rounds and only blow tube before the rifle fouls out.What's not to like ?