paper ring 38-55

[bigted]

rifle is a custom hiwall built on a browning 1885 action. green mountain barrel in #4 configuration and chambered in 38-55.

been shooting some duplex loads thru it but to date the smokless loads far exeed the blackpowder. i load the rcbs gg boolit that is sized thru a lee push thru sizer to .372 inch and papered to .3785 with 9 pound onionskin paper from baco arms.

also i just got an accurat mould that throws a 300 grain slick at the .372 inch diameter and it also patched up to the .3785 inch diameter.

the rcbs boolits at 250 ish grains will go into a raged hole with 30 grains 3031[imr] and sparked with cci 200's in a winchester case that is 2.086 long.

the accurat boolit also is very accurate altho it produces the rings of paper that i find in the chamber after just a cou-ple rounds loaded with the same 30 grain load of the 3031[imr] powder.

ran my vernier caliper stem into the chamber of the rifle barrel and rough meassurements tell of a chamber of around 2.110 inch. can this small extra length of space ahead of the case cause this ring to develop or have i gone too hot with my powder charge? i like it as the charge is 100 percent with a 1/8th felt wad and the boolits seated on the felt.

i have read that in these smaller bp style cartridges you cant put enough 3031 in there to harm anything...does this sound like bunk to anybody else? maybe i should play with 4064 and maybe some 4350 to experiment with in this tiny case.

what say you all??

:popcorn:...[smilie=s:...:veryconfu...:shock:...

[myfriendis410]

I would be surprised if you have enough case capacity to take advantage of the powders you listed. The only way though is; try it!

[geargnasher]

I say slicks don't work as well with smokeless poweder as wet-patched greasers do. If the brass is shorter than the chamber, rings are common. 100% cotton vellum is much less prone to leaving the rings than wood-pulp papers. Post-sizing the patched boolit to throat diameter and using a firm alloy at least as tough as air-cooled wheel weights helps a bunch, too.

Gear

[barrabruce]

Yeah I got a bit of weathby freebore too.
I went the other way and size mine down to groove diameter.
No rings !!!
Bit of soot on the cases sized section
Only General accuracy.
Just another option.

Tried breach seating??

[Nobade]

I also have had problems using slicks with smokeless powder. I think the exact same boolit, but with micro-type bands like a tumble lube boolit would be the way to go with smokeless.

The issue seems to be the patch slipping - the boolit moves on ahead and leaves the patch behind to get cut into rings and ends up leading the bore.

Before anything else, you might try some granular filler between that 3031 and the boolit base. Say .7 to 1.0cc and see what that does for you. And no, you aren't going to hurt a Browning 1885 action with a 38-55 case full of 3031.

[303Guy]

You might try a 'rougher' paper. Smooth paper tends to slip on slicks. Knurling with a file might help too. Softer alloy like I use grips the paper just fine and I dry wrap (but twist tighten). I have had slipping with a harder alloy.

[geargnasher]

I had this one made just for PP as an experiment. I won't say it works any better than a regular .30 caliber sized down to just over bore diameter, but it shoots as well. Zero patch slipping problems. The grooves are very shallow at .008", just the thickness of the dried patch.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea39a08d9d9c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2489)

Gear

[303Guy]

I like that concept. One day I'll make a split mold but in the meantime I plan making a 'taper' mold with small sharp steps rather than a taper to grip the paper. I need a 'round too-it' to get it done!

[bigted]

well just shot it again today and the same thing...the rcbs greesers sized to .372 and patched back to .3785 did very well and the baco slicks deposited the rings again...GEAR i think you have the secret with smokless anyway...i also shot 5 of the patched rcbs ers with 40 grains cartridge blackpowder and what a huge blast.

gonna have to get a 300ish greeser to play with on the smokless patching front with this 38-55...also gonna try some RL-7 with the patchers to compare.

[303Guy]

I came accross this picture of a half patch I tested.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/FIRE-POLISHING001.jpg

Here one can see clearly how the alloy has gripped the paper. It's the soft alloy that makes the difference. I have had other examples which show wrinkling impressions on the boolit but I was never sure whether those were from cold-shut hardness differences in the casting. They gave no rings though.

Then there's this one that shows the expnsion bulge into the case mouth/chamber end gap.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/BoolitSkid.jpg

But here the paper ring is undeniable.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5612_edited.jpg

However, it's from a 'tail-less' patch and is the bit that covered the rebate in the boolit.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/214grBSAMPIGGUN001.jpg

[Nrut]

bigted,
First I would get a good reading on the chamber length by making a throat impact slug..
Then when I knew for sure my chamber length I would order some Starline brass that best fits your chamber length as they make a short and a long length of 38-55 brass..
Short = 2.080"
Long = 2.125"
Looks like the long will be perfect for your rifle even if you might have to trim it a bit..

https://www.starlinebrass.com/order-online/caliber.cfm/caliber/38-55/

I see that Starline sells 38-55 in lots of 250pc.
I haven't checked other vendors but I bet they sell in smaller lots..
Try BACO or Graf..
I use the longer brass in my 38-55..
Haven't tried PP in it however..

Also I would do as 303Guy sez and roll a file over your slick bullets before patching..
I do that even when using greasers sometimes to make sure that i wrap over the ojive..

[bigted]

exelent ideas. i have some playing with this lil stinker but its all a good time just the same. i will try the file on my slick first. also ill aquire the longer brass and trim to chamber length minus maybe .005 for the stretch upon firing. ill also give the filler a try.

thanks all...tis what i like about this forum...everybody just jumps rite in with ideas for solving a problem...thanks again!

Ted

[bigted]

well i got back to the 38 today. i had some accurate mould slicks in the .372 inch diameter so i patched three without doing a thing...then i patched 5 that i used 2 bastard files to knurl them so as to keep the rings from happening again.

loaded all with 10 grains unique and primed with cci 200 large rifle primers...shot the un-knurled slicks first and found the cussed rings rite away...cleaned it up and began on the five i knurled and at number 3 i found a partial ring...4 and 5 deposited these partial rings as well.

so...kinda discouraged i slunk back into the loading room to consider my options when i decided to get on the computer to order some of the longer starline brass and then i started thinking that i had ordered some awhile back so i began the search for them...walla found em but i needed to chamber shoot them for size first and having some 220 grain jacketed i loaded em with 9 grains trailboss to fireform em to my chamber.

now i have the terrible task of rolling more slicks and knurling them for the test. think i read somewhere that the starline brass needs to be anealed before serious testing is comenced...do any of you agree with this?

[longbow]

I haven't found paper rings in any of my PP boolit shooting though I don't do a lot of PP boolit shooting.

I did find that knurling boolits produced better accuracy for me especially with slightly under bore diameter boolits (then patched to groove diameter).

Since knurling also increases diameter it is hard to say which or if both effects helped ~ rough surface to grip paper or slightly larger diameter giving better fit. I actually knurl, not just roll the boolits under a file though even the file should be increasing diameter some.

A thought occurs to me as I am typing. What alloy are you using? Is it possible that a too soft alloy is obturating in the throat? Or maybe too hard an alloy is not letting paper grip? Yeah, I know opposite issues.

Anyway, I have to agree with Gear that some grip seems beneficial at least in some combinations of paper and boolit diameter. I can't see how a roughened/knurled boolit or one with grooves would hurt anything and it will certainly help paper grip.

I recall an article by Ross Seyfried where he rolled copper jacketed bullets under a file to roughen them then patch up for odd size bores. He had good success with roughened copper.

Now that I've finished rambling.

Check throat diameter if much larger than groove diameter maybe try patching a little larger.

Try different alloys (I mostly used range scrap or ACWW though that isn't necessarily best but it worked for me).

Probably best to roughen the boolits as it should help and shouldn't hurt.

Keep on trying, you will beat it!

Longbow

[bigted]

thanks 'longbow'. i shoot alloy from 'muddycreeksam' whick is i believe close to a 30 to 1 or so. it does well for the greesers i shoot sooooo...

also i knurled the boolits in between two bastard files which increased the diameter of them from .372 to .376 inch. i then ran em thru my .372 lee die as my throat in the rifle is tight and a papered boolit of .378 inch is all an unsized case will accept and rechamber without running them back thru a partial size die to shrink em back.

however my boolits now loaded are the above mentioned knurled and re-sized and papered to .378 inch and loaded in the long...[2.125"]...brass. hope ill get the chance to shoot em today and see if the combo of longer brass + knurled n sized will keep the ring gremlin away.

i also took the opertunity to load some 45-120's last nite as well with an express load of 120 grains cartridge powder and a cookie pushing a lyman 457122 which throws a 347 grain solid with the pin for the hollowpoint snipped off so it casts a solid...but thats for another thread so i will report it there.