500 S&W barrel length

[Gunslinger1911]

Hi all,

Went shooting with some friends last weekend. (By the way - a 470g boolet at about 1400 fps is a real eye opener !!!

Now that I have the JR 5" 500, my buddy is thinking of buying my 4" 500. Muuuuuch better with the blank comp !! Thanks freedom475 !!!

Does anyone have an idea how much velosity is lost between a 5" JR and a 4" (really 3 1/4) ?

(It's going to be a while till I can get out with the chrony.)

Thanks

[ClemY]

Hi all,

Went shooting with some friends last weekend. (By the way - a 470g boolet at about 1400 fps is a real eye opener !!!

Now that I have the JR 5" 500, my buddy is thinking of buying my 4" 500. Muuuuuch better with the blank comp !! Thanks freedom475 !!!

Does anyone have an idea how much velosity is lost between a 5" JR and a 4" (really 3 1/4) ?

(It's going to be a while till I can get out with the chrony.)

Thanks

I feel your pain on the chrony. I have been contemplating getting one for several years. When I have the funds I intend to get the Ohler 35P.

I, too, wish to see the difference in velocity between the solid comped 4" and 5" JRS. I expect the 4" would pick up a little speed with the solid comp, and be pretty close to the 5". I would also love to chrony my 6 1/2" 500 PC Hunter.

[Porterhouse]

I have Ohler 35(without P) and have tested with 5" and PC6.5" extensively. In general, PC6.5" gets around 70fps over 5". Only way you find out is YOU test with YOUR guns but my guess is; -40fps or more considering its actually 3&1/4" compair to 5".

[RobS]

close to 30-35 fps per inch in your caliber. However it's a give or take depending on the load development i.e. powder/boolit combination. As been stated the only way to know is to chrono.

[Gunslinger1911]

Thanks guys ! I have a "ball park" number - I'll post results when I get the crono out.

[44man]

Case capacity versus barrel length and powder burn.
Why in the world would anyone want a .500 S&W in a 4" barrel when a smaller case will get more velocity?
It is not velocity lost, it is what you need to get the velocity.
Take a .300 Weatherby. It is best with a 26" barrel but might be better still with 28". Take it to 24" and a hot loaded 30-06 is close. Go to 20" and the 06 is even. Go to 18" and you get the Weatherby into 30-30 territory.
Barrel length is needed to burn huge amounts of powder, it is basic physics.
What does a .500 S&W in a 3-1/4" barrel actually do? I am at a loss to explain.

[Gunslinger1911]

44man,

Punch 1/2 " holes in stuff !

Back in the day, about all there was were the short bbl and the big 8" - really didn't like the looks of the 8".
Don't hunt- just wanted to experiment with the caliber - 1/2 " boolets are fun !! (Also have a 50AE 5-shot Blackhawk).

For velocity I have an 8" 454 Casull. I run mostly 1000 fps 325g wadcutter loads thru the 500.

Although, to really wake up people at the range - a few John Ross designed 580g boolets with a healthy dose of 296 is a real toe tapper !!!

[44man]

44man,

Punch 1/2 " holes in stuff !

Back in the day, about all there was were the short bbl and the big 8" - really didn't like the looks of the 8".
Don't hunt- just wanted to experiment with the caliber - 1/2 " boolets are fun !! (Also have a 50AE 5-shot Blackhawk).

For velocity I have an 8" 454 Casull. I run mostly 1000 fps 325g wadcutter loads thru the 500.

Although, to really wake up people at the range - a few John Ross designed 580g boolets with a healthy dose of 296 is a real toe tapper !!!
A .50 airgun still punches holes!
Noise from a short barrel must make your day.
I prefer accuracy over noise.

[dnotarianni]

What does a .500 S&W in a 3-1/4" barrel actually do? I am at a loss to explain.

Less recoil with lots of noise and a concussion that slaps you in the face with every shot.

[jwp475]

Case capacity versus barrel length and powder burn.
Why in the world would anyone want a .500 S&W in a 4" barrel when a smaller case will get more velocity?
It is not velocity lost, it is what you need to get the velocity.
Take a .300 Weatherby. It is best with a 26" barrel but might be better still with 28". Take it to 24" and a hot loaded 30-06 is close. Go to 20" and the 06 is even. Go to 18" and you get the Weatherby into 30-30 territory.
Barrel length is needed to burn huge amounts of powder, it is basic physics.
What does a .500 S&W in a 3-1/4" barrel actually do? I am at a loss to explain.



Have you ever owned a 300 Weatherby? Just curious. I have owned one and a 30-06 and I can you you for a fact that a 24" Weatherby is considerably faster than even a 26" 30-06. At least that is what an Oehler 35 says.

[Gunslinger1911]

Ya, hot loads = lots of recoil, but with solid comp not so much face slap.

"I prefer accuracy over noise. " I like both !

I have a .22 rifle that will hold .25" 5 shot groups all day.
I have said 8" 454 that will roll pop cans at 50+ yds.

I also have a .45 Officers ACP (my CCW) that I have customized (to fit me) to within an inch of it's life, not the most accurate 1911 - but will hit center mass at 25 yds and will feed anything, any time, 500 rounds of cast 200grainers and will still feed an empty case from the mag.

I also have an American Arms 45Colt derringer - why ? Cause I can. Actually hurts more than the 500 !

Most quality guns are more accurate than 90+% of shooters can hold.
I don't think bbl length comes into play for "inherent" accuracy in general - just that a longer bbl is easier to shoot well.

In time I hope to learn to control the 500 with warm to hot loads - it can be done - I would not care to make faces at John Ross at 500 yds if he had any .500 in his hand !!!!!

I'm just out here to have a ball - accuracy is fun, putting a 5 gallon bucket into orbit is fun also.
Heck, debating the merits of our toys is fun too !!!

Y'all be safe out there !!!

[44man]

Have you ever owned a 300 Weatherby? Just curious. I have owned one and a 30-06 and I can you you for a fact that a 24" Weatherby is considerably faster than even a 26" 30-06. At least that is what an Oehler 35 says.
Yes I did, a Mark 5 "B" barrel at 26" that would do 1/2" all day.
It used 88 gr of surplus 4831. You must be magic to burn that in an 18" barrel!
It will outpace a 30-06 in 24" of course but you still have more recoil, more powder and as barrels get shorter, less velocity.
A .500 S&W in a 4" barrel CAN NOT BURN THE POWDER.
What in the world makes anyone think a huge cartridge will be best in a super short barrel is beyond belief.

[subsonic]

While you will loose "efficiency" and gain some issues, the larger capacity case (especially if it is higher pressure) will still be faster than the smaller case with all other variables (boolit weight, cylinder gap, etc) equal. This can be proven pretty easily with a snubby .357. I had an SP101 and a 2.5" 686 that I chrono'd some. More powder and pressure yeilded more velocity every time.

I was even able to get 1500fps with a 125gr XTP in the 2.5" 686 using a max book load of AA9.

Recoil will go up though, and you may get "close" with of a more efficient cartridge at *higher pressure* but using less powder.

[jwp475]

While you will loose "efficiency" and gain some issues, the larger capacity case (especially if it is higher pressure) will still be faster than the smaller case with all other variables (boolit weight, cylinder gap, etc) equal. This can be proven pretty easily with a snubby .357. I had an SP101 and a 2.5" 686 that I chrono'd some. More powder and pressure yeilded more velocity every time.

I was even able to get 1500fps with a 125gr XTP in the 2.5" 686 using a max book load of AA9.

Recoil will go up though, and you may get "close" with of a more efficient cartridge at *higher pressure* but using less powder.



Excellent post and spot on!!!!!!

[stubshaft]

I own 5 different barrels for the .500 S&W on an Encore platform, and have gotta go with 44man. There is no way that the shorter barrel will get similar velocities compared to the longer barrels with decent loads. The only way that you can manipulate the results would be to use a fast powder in the short barrel and an extremely slow one in the longer barrel.

[44man]

I own 5 different barrels for the .500 S&W on an Encore platform, and have gotta go with 44man. There is no way that the shorter barrel will get similar velocities compared to the longer barrels with decent loads. The only way that you can manipulate the results would be to use a fast powder in the short barrel and an extremely slow one in the longer barrel.
100% right on but what some forget is you need spin and short barrels do not impart it. You still need to spin the boolit with velocity before it leaves the barrel.

[jwp475]

I own 5 different barrels for the .500 S&W on an Encore platform, and have gotta go with 44man. There is no way that the shorter barrel will get similar velocities compared to the longer barrels with decent loads. The only way that you can manipulate the results would be to use a fast powder in the short barrel and an extremely slow one in the longer barrel.



I chrono'ed differrent brands of factory ammo once in both of my M-19's 357 all 158 grain. I found that some of them were faster in my 4" M-19 and some loads , some loads were faster in my 4" M-19 and other were near identical speeds in both

The point is that there are differences in barrels and in individuals firearms and no blanket statement will ever be 100% accurate

[44man]

I chrono'ed differrent brands of factory ammo once in both of my M-19's 357 all 158 grain. I found that some of them were faster in my 4" M-19 and some loads , some loads were faster in my 4" M-19 and other were near identical speeds in both

The point is that there are differences in barrels and in individuals firearms and no blanket statement will ever be 100% accurate
Apples to oranges. Little .357 case, still slower then a 6" barrel but the guns dimensions can make a 4" faster then a 6".
How does that compare to a .500 S&W case?
You can shoot a .38 from a 3" barrel but do you shoot a 45-70 from one?

[ole 5 hole group]

I shot the 4” model for a while but didn’t chronograph many loads with it – but I did find a record where I shot a 600 grain commercial load from Ballistic Supply from the 4” and the 5” JR models on the same day and both shot well below the listed velocities from Ballistic Supply. The 4” averaged 1,148fps while the 5” JR averaged 1,161fps over an Oehler 33 for 3 shots from each revolver. I have no idea as to the powder or amount used but I expected the JR model to beat the 4" model by more than it did.

[Gunslinger1911]

Thanks ole 5,

I know it's just one data point - but I didn't think there would much difference.

I should make it out with the chrono after the holidays - I have a few different weight boolits, kinds of powder, and velocity levels to test.

[TCTex]

I don’t have any experience with the 30 cal’s, but I do the 270’s…

My 16.5in 270 Win will launch a 130gr SST over RL22 at just over 2850 fps. My 270 rifle Win will launch that same 130 SST over RL22 at just over 3150 fps.

FWIW…

[Porterhouse]

One thing you should be aware is the twist rate difference between factory 1-18" and JR 1-10". I know John Ross said in his material there is no harm for light/short boolits with tight twist barrel but based on my own testing, it's REALLY hard to find accurate load with lighter than, say 450gr boolits with his 5" barrel. Then, if you only shoot at 25yds, you may never notice.

[jwp475]

I own 5 different barrels for the .500 S&W on an Encore platform, and have gotta go with 44man. There is no way that the shorter barrel will get similar velocities compared to the longer barrels with decent loads. The only way that you can manipulate the results would be to use a fast powder in the short barrel and an extremely slow one in the longer barrel.



No disagreement here, no one has said that a 4" 500 S&W will have the same speed as an 8". We all agree on this

[44man]

One thing you should be aware is the twist rate difference between factory 1-18" and JR 1-10". I know John Ross said in his material there is no harm for light/short boolits with tight twist barrel but based on my own testing, it's REALLY hard to find accurate load with lighter than, say 450gr boolits with his 5" barrel. Then, if you only shoot at 25yds, you may never notice.
Twist rates do mean a lot and I have always thought a short barrel should have a faster twist. I understand many like short barrels for carry and accuracy is not an issue with a bear in your face.
It is only case size in short barrels that cause a problem with even a 30-30 in a 10" barrel giving problems with powders. There is no sense in a huge case with a little fast powder in it.
Large calibers are great but if you shorten a barrel too much, then a short case with a large caliber will still do it.
The 45-70 in a 10" barrel drove me nuts and it was common to dump out unburned powder as I tested. To even think of a 4" barrel in the 45-70 will mean a rubber room in the end.
A .500 S&W is a huge gun even with a short barrel. How about a .500 case the length of a .44 mag case in a smaller gun?
In the end you can not use a huge case capacity in a short gun yet a large caliber is not out of the question if you make it efficient. The Linebaugh and JRH can use a shorter barrel but if the barrel gets too short, a smaller case might be better.
Yes, large cases reduce pressures but why lose hair trying to find what works?

[TCTex]

That is a really good point.

The 30 Herrett came about for the exact reasons you mentioned. A shorter case that was more efficient than the 30-30.

I like the shorter barrels on my revolvers just because of their use in my hands. I like my TC’s for a primary hunting gun. My revolvers are more like would Mr. Keith would say are used for targets of opportunity… They all have their place and I thank the Lord every day that we live in a free country where we each can decide how we want to use them and then use them to meet our needs… JMHO…

[freedom475]

My test was with the 8 3/8" and the 4" (really 3")500s&w..the load was a 400gr GC wfn cast. It chronoed at 1806fps from the 8" and 1485fps from the 3"...

Barrel length is a funny subject with pistols. Seems everyone thinks you need the barrel to utilize powder. The barrel length will give you more power (speed), but will Not burn more pistol powder.


I learned something at the Linebaugh seminar from the ballistic tech that came to the seminar with all of his computer charts. Much to the disbelief of lots of guys that had theories figured out (John himself said "What??")

The charts showed us right there in black-and-white that everything that is going to happen to build pressure, happens BEFORE the boolit breaks the crimp.

The instant the boolit breaks the crimp the dynamics of case capacity change and the pressure build stops ...thus ending the burn spike...any powder that burns after that takes place, is just on fire and really does no more to assist the boolit on it's way.

If that intial pressure and gas stays behind the boolit longer (longer barrel=more time) you can get more room/time to get the boolit moving faster but you Do Not get a better/longer/more powder burn.

[snowwolfe]

Case capacity versus barrel length and powder burn.
Why in the world would anyone want a .500 S&W in a 4" barrel when a smaller case will get more velocity?
It is not velocity lost, it is what you need to get the velocity.
Take a .300 Weatherby. It is best with a 26" barrel but might be better still with 28". Take it to 24" and a hot loaded 30-06 is close. Go to 20" and the 06 is even. Go to 18" and you get the Weatherby into 30-30 territory.
Barrel length is needed to burn huge amounts of powder, it is basic physics.
What does a .500 S&W in a 3-1/4" barrel actually do? I am at a loss to explain.

It's a perfect revolver for carrying in grizzly country.

Do you know of any other double action revolver built that has a 3 1/4 inch barrel that will push a 400 grain bullet as fast as the S&W will?

I am interested in hearing your side of the story so please tell me what smaller case will get more velocity with the same weight bullet over the S&W 500.

Also, if you think a 300 Wby with an 24 inch barrel is into 30-06 territory............well.............you are simply incorrect. I've owned a 300 Wby with a 24 inch barrel and it would launch 180 grain bullets at 3,110 fps.

[jwp475]

snowwolfe , spot on

[Spokerider]

My test was with the 8 3/8" and the 4" (really 3")500s&w..the load was a 400gr GC wfn cast. It chronoed at 1806fps from the 8" and 1485fps from the 3"...

Barrel length is a funny subject with pistols. Seems everyone thinks you need the barrel to utilize powder. The barrel length will give you more power (speed), but will Not burn more pistol powder.


I learned something at the Linebaugh seminar from the ballistic tech that came to the seminar with all of his computer charts. Much to the disbelief of lots of guys that had theories figured out (John himself said "What??")

The charts showed us right there in black-and-white that everything that is going to happen to build pressure, happens BEFORE the boolit breaks the crimp.

The instant the boolit breaks the crimp the dynamics of case capacity change and the pressure build stops ...thus ending the burn spike...any powder that burns after that takes place, is just on fire and really does no more to assist the boolit on it's way.

If that intial pressure and gas stays behind the boolit longer (longer barrel=more time) you can get more room/time to get the boolit moving faster but you Do Not get a better/longer/more powder burn.




Very interesting.......and if one thinks about it, it really does make sense. Which has me thinking.......that the strength of the crimp has as much to do with the efficacy of the powder being burnt, as does the selection of the power itself. The harder the crimp, the longer the "burn time" the powder is allowed before the crimp is broken.

[jwp475]

My test was with the 8 3/8" and the 4" (really 3")500s&w..the load was a 400gr GC wfn cast. It chronoed at 1806fps from the 8" and 1485fps from the 3"...

Barrel length is a funny subject with pistols. Seems everyone thinks you need the barrel to utilize powder. The barrel length will give you more power (speed), but will Not burn more pistol powder.


I learned something at the Linebaugh seminar from the ballistic tech that came to the seminar with all of his computer charts. Much to the disbelief of lots of guys that had theories figured out (John himself said "What??")

The charts showed us right there in black-and-white that everything that is going to happen to build pressure, happens BEFORE the boolit breaks the crimp.

The instant the boolit breaks the crimp the dynamics of case capacity change and the pressure build stops ...thus ending the burn spike...any powder that burns after that takes place, is just on fire and really does no more to assist the boolit on it's way.

If that intial pressure and gas stays behind the boolit longer (longer barrel=more time) you can get more room/time to get the boolit moving faster but you Do Not get a better/longer/more powder burn.





You are 110% correct!! Bravo http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Beers.gif http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/thumb.gif

[44man]

Very interesting.......and if one thinks about it, it really does make sense. Which has me thinking.......that the strength of the crimp has as much to do with the efficacy of the powder being burnt, as does the selection of the power itself. The harder the crimp, the longer the "burn time" the powder is allowed before the crimp is broken.
That is the opinion of a desk geek. Powder continues to burn and push a boolit in the bore.
Crimp does not change a thing.

[44man]

It's a perfect revolver for carrying in grizzly country.

Do you know of any other double action revolver built that has a 3 1/4 inch barrel that will push a 400 grain bullet as fast as the S&W will?

I am interested in hearing your side of the story so please tell me what smaller case will get more velocity with the same weight bullet over the S&W 500.

Also, if you think a 300 Wby with an 24 inch barrel is into 30-06 territory............well.............you are simply incorrect. I've owned a 300 Wby with a 24 inch barrel and it would launch 180 grain bullets at 3,110 fps.
Still a magnum but the shorter barrel meant less velocity then a 26" and you can not dispute that. Powder has exited the barrel without burning. If you think it all burned in the case you are mistaken.

[44man]

It's a perfect revolver for carrying in grizzly country.

Do you know of any other double action revolver built that has a 3 1/4 inch barrel that will push a 400 grain bullet as fast as the S&W will?

I am interested in hearing your side of the story so please tell me what smaller case will get more velocity with the same weight bullet over the S&W 500.

Also, if you think a 300 Wby with an 24 inch barrel is into 30-06 territory............well.............you are simply incorrect. I've owned a 300 Wby with a 24 inch barrel and it would launch 180 grain bullets at 3,110 fps.
I am quite sure a JRH will match the S&W in a short barrel. Unless you use a fast powder, you just toss powder out in the air.
Peak pressure in the case before the boolit leaves does not happen with slow powders. To think that pressure alone in the brass will keep accelerating a boolit is wrong.
As you make a barrel longer, you get more velocity but did you know that once the powder is gone a too long barrel will reduce velocity? Tests done with the lowly .22 rim fire has shown once a barrel reaches a certain length, the bullet slows down.
If you think 80+ gr of 4831 in the weatherby all goes off at once in the brass, you would be wrong.
Once a peak is reached, no more push is to be had and the bullet will slow. That is so simple. If you peak in the brass before bullet movement, the bullet will slow in the barrel, NOT SPEED UP.

[MJR007]

I lived this once. I have JH and it does not get much use, it is just to big/heavy to carry. My S&W Air Lite PD gets most of the belt time now. I wish they made the PD in a 50 special.

[jwp475]

That is the opinion of a desk geek. Powder continues to burn and push a boolit in the bore.
Crimp does not change a thing.



The powder burn is complete in the cylinder the pressure trace equipment proves this. The volume of powder gases accelerates the bullet down the barrel pressure is falling as the bullet passes through the bore.


As long as all factors are equal (barrel cylinder gap, exit leads, forcing cane, and bore) then the larger capacity case will give the high speeds even in a short barrel. Powder choice is governed by case capacity and bullet size

[frank505]

Desk geek???? Do you have ballistics lab to work in 44 man? Do you have readouts of the pressure curve on paper? Since I have stood in that very lab and ran loads through their equipment I can say it is magnificent. Anything else is simply BS from people who should know better than to open mouth and insert whatever. desk geek my ***

[frank505]

Let me explain further, there is an osciliscope readout of every shot fired with the pressure trace. Like, in an M4 barrel, there is a bump when the bullet passes the gas hole in the barrel, easily seen on the screen or paper printout.
Straight wall revolver cartridges attain peak pressure before the bullet leaves the case or in many cases before the crimp is overcome and the bullet MOVES as Wes said. If you wish to believe an internet commando go ahead, science rather trumps them all to hell.

[jwp475]

Let me explain further, there is an osciliscope readout of every shot fired with the pressure trace. Like, in an M4 barrel, there is a bump when the bullet passes the gas hole in the barrel, easily seen on the screen or paper printout.
Straight wall revolver cartridges attain peak pressure before the bullet leaves the case or in many cases before the crimp is overcome and the bullet MOVES as Wes said. If you wish to believe an internet commando go ahead, science rather trumps them all to hell.



Spot on, BRAVO, BRAVO!!!!!!http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Beers.gif

[theperfessor]

If there is unequal pressure acting on the same size area of an object, a force will be created. If this force is greater than any other force acting against the object, the object will accelerate (F=ma, or rewritten, a=F/m). If the force caused by the pressure difference is greater than the drag caused by friction between the barrel and the bullet, the bullet will continue to accelerate. When the friction force is greater than the force caused by pressure difference, the bullet will decelerate.

This explains why .22 rimfire bullets slow down in long barreled guns.

By the way, chamber pressure is simply a response to the confinement of gasses caused a chemical combustion process. The "confinement" is the immovable (hopefully!) walls of the barrel and action, and the movable projectile. It is inertial and drag (friction) forces that cause pressure. Light off the same powder charge in the open air and the pressure change around the combusting powder would be very low, the atmosphere offers little resistance to the expanding gasses.

[saz]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I tried a tip of a well known gun writer just out of cruiosity. The tip was to lay a tarp out on the ground in front of your muzzle to see if there are any unburned grains of powder. I did find some on certain loads but not much. It was mostly slower powders in shorter barrels. I cannot remember the exact charges, but they were right at the point of diminishing returns- i.e. increasing the charge and no increase or a DECREASE in MV. Like I said, it wasnt much but it was there.

[jwp475]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I tried a tip of a well known gun writer just out of cruiosity. The tip was to lay a tarp out on the ground in front of your muzzle to see if there are any unburned grains of powder. I did find some on certain loads but not much. It was mostly slower powders in shorter barrels. I cannot remember the exact charges, but they were right at the point of diminishing returns- i.e. increasing the charge and no increase or a DECREASE in MV. Like I said, it wasnt much but it was there.




Do the same experiment again with a longer barreled revolver and you will have the the results

[shotstring]

I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about, but just because an experiment was done in a lab with expensive equipment, it doesn't mean the test was done right or the right conclusions reached.

We all know that pressure builds in a barrel - common sense, and any obstruction or reduction of bore diameter will prove it. If you have the barrel providing resistance to a bullet moving down the bore, it will provide an extension of the burning process that takes place in a cartridge case before it hits the forcing cone. It is simply less efficient. But powder still burns under pressure so common sense and basic scientific principle dictates that some additional velocity will be created as long as powder is burning - the more efficient the burning of the powder, the more additional pressure is created and the more additional velocity. It doesn't take expensive equipment to reason that out.

[jwp475]

AN obstruction in the bore restricts the escape of the pressure. The build up has already occurred in the chamber ( that is why it is referred to as "chamber pressure". Since the pressure can't escape fast enough the metal gives and stretches past it's yield

[frank505]

Shotstring;
If your "reasoning" is true, why does the pressure drop quickly after the bullet starts moving?
I'm going back to internetcommando.com/net for the real truth on all things ballistic

[44man]

If powder did not continue to burn in the barrel and add to push, we would only need Bullseye.
To think everything starts and ends in the case before boolit movement is a Bullseye shot. Why does 296 or 2400 make the gun shoot faster?
Why do guns have a barrel at all, why not a throat with rifling?
Everyone knows a short barrel means less velocity then a long one until the powder is gone. Once burn stops the boolit will slow from friction.
Hydraulic pressure is the same. Do you get a burst of fluid when you step on the brakes or do you add pressure to a fluid column? If your fluid is low, your brakes fail.
Does your log splitter cut a 4' log with a burst of pressure.
Take note of the huge flash from a .500 with a short barrel, that is still powder burning. It should have been contained in the barrel.
Peak pressure in a gun will be in a different place as powders are made slower. But that is not the final answer, it is how much more is burning to add to push. Peak can occur fast but the rate of pressure loss will change depending on how much more gas is generated. Peak can be in the case or inches in front but it is the graph line to pressure drop off that counts.
I wonder why battle ships have long barrels? Why not a 2' barrel?
Even powder amounts can change burn between a slow and a fast one. Some fast powders can burn slower then a slow one and the opposite.
Bullseye will peak and then drop quick but slow powder will peak and drop slower. Nobody has provided trace graphs or the explanation why we have so many burn rate powders.
Is ALL the pressure and powder burn finished in the brass? If it was, you would have a bomb. Even BP does not explode all at once, it also has a burn rate.
I find it hard to imagine 88 gr of 4831 going off instantly in the case of a .300 Weatherby. Why not 88 gr of Bullseye?

[44MAG#1]

Why is all this so important????? Short vs long barrels??? Just something to argue about and nothing will be solved. We who like short barrels are willing to give up some velocity to get what we want. Those who like long barrels will give up something to get the higher velocity. It is not a "get your cake and eat it too" situation.
Slow powders keep up WHAT pressure there is after peak longer applying more push on the bullet. Fast powders do not keep up the push on bullets to the same magantude as do slower powders because they peak faster and because of the lesser volumn of powder does not burn as long after pressure starts dropping so the "push time" is shorter.
So?????????? I like shorter barrels. I give up some velocity. I don't care. I use mostly slower powders when I want velocity in any barrel lenght. In a 4 inch 44 mag 2400 trumps Bullseye as far velocity is concerned just like it does in 71/2 incher. So????? Economy wise Bullseye trumps 2400. So???????
What does it matter if one wants something different????

[jwp475]

If powder did not continue to burn in the barrel and add to push, we would only need Bullseye.
To think everything starts and ends in the case before boolit movement is a Bullseye shot. Why does 296 or 2400 make the gun shoot faster?
Why do guns have a barrel at all, why not a throat with rifling?
Everyone knows a short barrel means less velocity then a long one until the powder is gone. Once burn stops the boolit will slow from friction.
Hydraulic pressure is the same. Do you get a burst of fluid when you step on the brakes or do you add pressure to a fluid column? If your fluid is low, your brakes fail.
Does your log splitter cut a 4' log with a burst of pressure.
Take note of the huge flash from a .500 with a short barrel, that is still powder burning. It should have been contained in the barrel.
Peak pressure in a gun will be in a different place as powders are made slower. But that is not the final answer, it is how much more is burning to add to push. Peak can occur fast but the rate of pressure loss will change depending on how much more gas is generated. Peak can be in the case or inches in front but it is the graph line to pressure drop off that counts.
I wonder why battle ships have long barrels? Why not a 2' barrel?
Even powder amounts can change burn between a slow and a fast one. Some fast powders can burn slower then a slow one and the opposite.
Bullseye will peak and then drop quick but slow powder will peak and drop slower. Nobody has provided trace graphs or the explanation why we have so many burn rate powders.
Is ALL the pressure and powder burn finished in the brass? If it was, you would have a bomb. Even BP does not explode all at once, it also has a burn rate.
I find it hard to imagine 88 gr of 4831 going off instantly in the case of a .300 Weatherby. Why not 88 gr of Bullseye?


Your logic is flawed. Bullseye doesn't produce enough gas to cntinue to accelreate the bullet when used in a large capacity revolver case. Bullseye will rech peak pressure before enough volume of powder can be put into the case

Peak pressure is reached in the chamber, hence the term "chamber pressure"

[44MAG#1]

Bullseye will rech peak pressure before enough volume of powder can be put into the case"

I thought that was well know. If it had the same burn rate as 2400 it would hold enough. Faster powders take up less volumn because they are faster and less needs to be used to get the same pressure. All pressure reading are chamber pressure whether taken off the body of the case or measured at the case mouth. Hence the term chamber pressure.
Still what will be solved in all this.

[jwp475]

Yep.

Powder selection is based on cartridge case capacity and bullet weight/length, not barrel length

[44man]

Why is all this so important????? Short vs long barrels??? Just something to argue about and nothing will be solved. We who like short barrels are willing to give up some velocity to get what we want. Those who like long barrels will give up something to get the higher velocity. It is not a "get your cake and eat it too" situation.
Slow powders keep up WHAT pressure there is after peak longer applying more push on the bullet. Fast powders do not keep up the push on bullets to the same magantude as do slower powders because they peak faster and because of the lesser volumn of powder does not burn as long after pressure starts dropping so the "push time" is shorter.
So?????????? I like shorter barrels. I give up some velocity. I don't care. I use mostly slower powders when I want velocity in any barrel lenght. In a 4 inch 44 mag 2400 trumps Bullseye as far velocity is concerned just like it does in 71/2 incher. So????? Economy wise Bullseye trumps 2400. So???????
What does it matter if one wants something different????
Very true. No sense arguing about it and I was not trying to argue.
Only pointing out there is push applied longer with a slower powder because it is not ignited all at once. If the barrel is too short, the full amount of powder in a large case will not burn in the barrel. But you still get better results in a short barrel with a slow powder. It is still because powder is burning in the barrel, not a quick thump and it is over.
Watch videos of guns with large fireballs at the muzzle. Once the barrel reaches a certain length, the fireball decreases and right where it is the least, that will be the right length for the caliber.
That was the reason for such long military barrels, max velocity with low muzzle flash. Shorter barrels need flash hiders or someone will shoot back at you.
The ideal is to burn all powder just before boolit exit.
Chamber pressure and powder burn rates are two different things.
Chamber pressure by itself is not what gives you the highest velocity.
Gas operated guns would not work if all pressure was just in the chamber.

[jwp475]

Again you are incorrect, pressure trace equipment shows that the powders peak pressure is in the chamber. Barrel length has nothing to do with the peak chamber pressure.

The greater volume of powder gases at peak acceptable pressure is the key to higher velocity.

The same burn range of powder that gives the higher velocities out of an eight inch barrel will also be the ones that give the highest velocities in a 5 inch barrel

[44MAG#1]

We ALL know barrel length has nothing to do with CHAMBER PRESSURE that is the reason it is called CHAMBER PRESSUE and not BARREL PRESSURE or CHAMBER and BARREL PRESSURE.

[44man]

We ALL know barrel length has nothing to do with CHAMBER PRESSURE that is the reason it is called CHAMBER PRESSUE and not BARREL PRESSURE or CHAMBER and BARREL PRESSURE.
Good observation, You understand that all gas is not generated in the chamber. It is progressive. More pressure, more burn, more burn more pressure, ETC. Pressure and velocity increase over distance. Or at least a pressure sustained for a longer length.

[jwp475]

Again you are incorrect and have based your opinion on what? Your best guess. Pressure does not in crease over distance. No pressure trace ever indicates such

[bigboredad]

one question if the powder continued to burn wouldn't it pick the path of least resistance and if the bullet is halfway down the barrel wouldn't the burning gas go backwards instead of pushing against a bullet

[44man]

one question if the powder continued to burn wouldn't it pick the path of least resistance and if the bullet is halfway down the barrel wouldn't the burning gas go backwards instead of pushing against a bullet
No, only if something stopped the boolit like a bore obstruction.
You do not spike pressure in the bore and it is never as high as chamber pressure but the curve is extended over time and gives more pressure over time then a powder that is all gone fast.
There ARE instances where a trace showed a large spike at about bullet exit and they have not figured out why. The spike was near the muzzle and did not add to chamber pressure.
Powder does not detonate, it burns. Even BP will not under most conditions. Long ago they took a section of barrel, had a screw plug for both ends. It was filled with BP, plugged and a wick fed into a hole. The barrel did not blow up, all the gas vented out of the wick hole. I would say it might have blown up with the barrel half full.
To have 52 gr of 4350 go off all at once in your 30-06 before the bullet moved much, you would have a detonation, they do make dynamite for that!
The shape of powder grains and the coatings are to retard the burn rate. Many powders are the exact same formula but are extruded different.
Chamber pressure will increase as a powder charge is increased too because powder weight is added to bullet weight, you are pushing more.
Take a 45-70 and keep adding more and more BP, compress in stages to get it in. You will see a REDUCTION in velocity. Try it with Pyrodex and you will shoot plugs of powder from the muzzle to burn on the ground. Makes great flares! :mrgreen:

[freedom475]

BP is way different and it only burns 1300+/-fps, whether confined or or in open air....not even a comparison as good as apples and oranges....more like apples and horses.

[44man]

BP is way different and it only burns 1300+/-fps, whether confined or or in open air....not even a comparison as good as apples and oranges....more like apples and horses.
Same affect in the barrel, just less pressure. Even more reason to never ignite smokeless in 2".
I can make it a little simple with some observation. If all powder was burned up in 2", there would be no muzzle flash as the fire would be out. Notice as you shorten a barrel the flash gets much larger.
Even a primer alone from an empty case throws burning material out of a long barrel.

[TCTex]

If powder did not continue to burn in the barrel and add to push, we would only need Bullseye.

Well, I guess we could get away with it… but that isn’t how my understanding of powder works.

Cartridge capacity and selected bullet weight play a big role in optimizing a propellant. You could put blue dot in a 30-06 case but it wouldn’t be my first choice. LOL

In my feeble understanding, selecting a powder with a proper burning rate for your cartridge is critical. It also maximizes the rounds potential and then utilize the gasses of the powder to your advantage. Or the pressure that the powder creates when ignited if you will.


“A powder may burn at different rates in a 308 Winchester as compared to a 243 Winchester of as compared to a 358 Winchester, even though each of these cartridges has the same approximate volume. In addition, burning rate intervals can also be a variable.” Hornady Handbook 6th edition page 38.


“Propellant Versus Case Volume:
Generally, powders that give the best ballistic uniformity and accuracy are often those that nearly fill the case to the base of the bullet. Ideally, the reloader should choose a load that fills the case to at least 90% of capacity. This insures that powder positioning in the case will not cause substantial changes in the ballistics. It is not always possible to fill up 90% of case volume. However, when it can be done this is often port of a knowledgeable reloaders approach to powder selection.” Lyman 48th Edition page 63.


Here is something we often misinterpret.
“Like any technical pursuit, handloading has its own language. Included in that are a lot of catch phrases that are sure to be strewn through any conversation between one or more devotees. “Pressure” is one term that comes up a lot with people who create their own ammunition. But, it’s often misunderstood. We speak of pressure as a bad thing, but without it our bullets wouldn’t fly. Pressure is what forces them down the barrel and out into the wide world of free flight. Without pressure they would just continue to sit, fat, happy and content, inside the case neck.

In simple terms, the higher the pressure the harder it will push on the base of the bullet and the faster it will make that bullet go because there is a direct correlation between pressure levels and velocity. Of course, a lot of factors come into play and a 40-grain .22 bullet with the same pressure as a 300-grain .375 bullet is not going to have the same muzzle velocity. But, with all being equal, on any given bullet the higher the pressure the higher the velocity.” Lyman 48thEdition page 96.



“Powder combustion sets off the chain of events that propel a bullet out of the barrel of a firearm and into its trajectory . Gases-the products of combustion-expand rapidly within the cartridge case, pushing it against the breach and chamber walls and pushing the bullet forward. Hornady Handbook 6th edition page 68.



Something else to think about. A starting load for a 10in 221 fireball will cut a flame. Both the Hornady and Lyman books list min and max loads. Interestingly, both books indicate that an increase in powder will result in the increase of velocity. It makes me wonder if it is the lack of barrel time for the gas to push the bullet, and not the powder to burn, determines velocity. Yes, you can blow powder out of the barrel. My 16.5 in 300 Whisper will blow powder shooting a 130gr Lee and H110/Blue Dot. But looking down my barrel, or whipping it out afterwards, l see powder that could not be used again. So yes, it has burned, but it wouldn’t madder if it was a 10in barrel or 20in barrel. All the powder residue inside the barrel would still look the same respectfully. It reminds me of my 38in 54cal flintlock. When I shoot it with 72gr of FF powder I get red powder residue at the end of my barrel. It is burn powder. Humorously, If I use that same load in my 14in 54cal flintlock pistol, I get the same results…



I am posting quotes from reloading manuals so it isn’t “my word” or “my interpretation” of what was written. Both articles goes on to list other variables of pressure including the type and construction of firearm as well as case design. FWIW.


Why am I posting this, that is simple. There has been a good debate here and I was hoping these facts would help the conversation. (I am calling them “facts” because I feel like these printed books are the “experts” in this field. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be in business. LOL)

Duane

[TCTex]

Powder does not detonate, it burns. Even BP will not under most conditions. Long ago they took a section of barrel, had a screw plug for both ends. It was filled with BP, plugged and a wick fed into a hole. The barrel did not blow up, all the gas vented out of the wick hole. I would say it might have blown up with the barrel half full.

I have in my possession, well it is at my Dad’s house… LOL, a document that isn’t supposed to exist. It is a barrel makers liability research document. You wouldn’t believe what they did to barrels… it is amazing. Black Powder isn’t as near as dangerous as smokeless IMHO… Here is why I have come to those conclusions. You can load a barrel all the way up to the top and pack a round ball on top of the charge and it will go off without a hitch. You might damage the tang, but the shooter will be fine. My normal hunting charge for my 54cal barrel consists of 90gr of FF. That gun will take that abuse until the rifling has worn out. BUT, if don’t seat the ball correctly and the “primmer powder” ignites the powder laterally and simultaneously down the barrel it will split that barrel from the vent hole like a banana. I have seen it happen. I am going to guesstamate that majority of muzzleloader “issues” come from people who didn’t seat there bullets properly.

[44man]

I have in my possession, well it is at my Dad’s house… LOL, a document that isn’t supposed to exist. It is a barrel makers liability research document. You wouldn’t believe what they did to barrels… it is amazing. Black Powder isn’t as near as dangerous as smokeless IMHO… Here is why I have come to those conclusions. You can load a barrel all the way up to the top and pack a round ball on top of the charge and it will go off without a hitch. You might damage the tang, but the shooter will be fine. My normal hunting charge for my 54cal barrel consists of 90gr of FF. That gun will take that abuse until the rifling has worn out. BUT, if don’t seat the ball correctly and the “primmer powder” ignites the powder laterally and simultaneously down the barrel it will split that barrel from the vent hole like a banana. I have seen it happen. I am going to guesstamate that majority of muzzleloader “issues” come from people who didn’t seat there bullets properly.
I can't add to that, it is correct.
Back to unburned powder in the barrel or case. It is because the pressure dropped before the powder could be consumed. The powder was too slow. A longer barrel would be clean of unburned powder.

[TCTex]

Ok, the what length barrel do you think we need?

Eg, 14in 54 flinter with 72gr of FF has red beads at the end of the barrel, burn powder. (The red beads are what the old timers called the sweet spot, or so I have been told… Ps, 72gr is the old traditional load…) My 44in 54 flinter with 72gr of FF has those same red beads.

[44man]

Ok, the what length barrel do you think we need?

Eg, 14in 54 flinter with 72gr of FF has red beads at the end of the barrel, burn powder. (The red beads are what the old timers called the sweet spot, or so I have been told… Ps, 72gr is the old traditional load…) My 44in 54 flinter with 72gr of FF has those same red beads.
It depends, it depends. How much powder, what powder, etc. Short barrels can work, just lower velocities. But it is easy to just go to a faster powder.
That also gets crazy. I tried all kinds of stuff in the 10", 45-70 BFR. 3031 was very slow but accurate. I actually dumped unburned powder out of the brass and it was not even discolored. I settled on 4759 for the bulk in the brass and the burn rate. Yet Varget as slow as it is, shot good with less unburned powder.
The 10" TC in 30-30 drove me nuts until I went to 4759.
Using 322 in the 10" MOA in 7BR was bad and only works with a 175 gr bullet. But I use Varget with a 120 gr bullet. I use 4759 with 140 and 154 gr bullets.
I don't talk about bear in your face guns, a 4" .500 S&W is still potent but it is as inefficient as you can get. Shorten the case, use less powder and you have a smaller gun, same results and cheaper to shoot.
I don't hold any stock in the BP red beads.
It sounds strange to use Varget in the little cases like the BR. I called Hodgdon about a load and they told me it would not work. I experimented and it is the only powder that works with a light bullet in the slow twist. 32.5 gr gives me 2175 fps with a 120 gr bullet with superb accuracy out of a 10" barrel. The gun stays clean, no unburned powder. Not a single other powder will shoot 120 bullets from this gun. I then tried it in my 10" 7R and it also works perfect.
Varget is a powder that switches roles to a fast powder.
I have a little BP caplock pistol in .44 that for fun I stoke with 80 gr. Velocity goes way down but recoil goes to .44 mag class. Makes nice fireworks.
The thing is that as you shorten barrels, your work to find what shoots will triple.

[TCTex]

I don't hold any stock in the BP red beads.

I do, but to each his own... LOL
I have shot traditional black powder for some time. What I can tell you is even the House brothers put stock in those little red beads at the end of the barrel.

Just an FIW. When shooting a traditional black powder you are going to have residue in the barrel. There is no way around it. Even if you shoot a charge that is just strong enough to push the bullet out of the barrel it will have power residue inside said barrel. It is the nature of the beast… (If you don't believe me try it for yourself and then run a white patch down your barrel, it will be gray from the burn powder residue.)

As for a clean barrel, I know the difference in what you are talking about. It is like red dot and green dot in a shot gun. Dad likes green dot because it doesn’t kick as much, but it is a dirtier powder. He will shot around or two of red dot to clean out the barrel a little after a shooting session, but when we get home there is still powder residue down the barrel when we clean them. Even if you shoot one shot of red dot out of a clean gun it is still going to have powder residue.

Point in fact. (Don’t try this at home kids.) Pick your favorite powder and pour some on the concrete and light it with a really long match stick… LOL Pick a powder it doesn’t matter. You will have powder residue on the concrete. (It is cool to watch how different powders burn though… ) Just like when you burn wood in a fireplace the combustion process doesn’t complete burn the wood, you have ashes. In the chemical conversion process you are going to have a byproduct besides gas.

I have loaded subsonic loads out of my 15in Hornet and 16.5in 300 Whisper using Unique, Blue Dot, Green Dot, and several other powders. I never once had a “clean bore” after a single shot. Now some were cleaner than others. But just don’t confuse powder residue with unburnt powder… sometimes we forget that.

Ps, when working up loads for my 16.5in Encore in 300 Whisper shooting a 120gr Lee bullet I played round with loads. 4gr of Blue Dot would not exit the barrel. In fact when you opened the action up it sent a piece of brass 50 feet behind you… (I thought I was getting a hair cut…) 5gr of Blue Dot exited the 16.5in barrel and still left residue inside.

One more thing. I shot my 357 Herrett loads out of my 14in factory Contender and my 26in TC Custom Shop Encore barrels. It was 1680 over a 180 SSP. Both barrels were comparable after inspecting the inside of the bores. It leaves to believe that the 14in is shooting out a lot more burned powder than the 26in and there was almost exactly 300 fps difference in the velocities of the two barrels. What was the difference, the gasses had more time to effect the bullet in the 26in barrel.

[TCTex]

I have a little BP caplock pistol in .44 that for fun I stoke with 80 gr. Velocity goes way down but recoil goes to .44 mag class. Makes nice fireworks.


PLEASE be careful with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A lot of your production pistols were made for target practice and not intended for that type of abuse.

(Yes I know the conversation we just had… but I have seen more than one CVA or Lyman pistol with a broken stock or the barrel came out and flipped over the shooters head. We are talking about pistol integrity and not barrel integrity…)

With 72gr of FF I am getting 1400fps out of my barrels with a 232gr round ball, however, my two 54 flinters are custom build by Ken Netting from the ground up like a mini rifle and will take the punishment.

Shoot save

Duane

[TCTex]

I have a little BP caplock pistol in .44 that for fun I stoke with 80 gr. Velocity goes way down but recoil goes to .44 mag class. Makes nice fireworks.


I would be very interested in the numbers your chronograph came up with.

I have a friend named Don Hight that used a 75cal to go Kodiak Bear hunting with. Now before we go off on that it is a 75cal and he was shooting a 38in barrel it should be noted he was shooting 350gr of FF in it as a hunting load. They tested the custom built flinter and worked up to 500+gr of FF. It would pick a man up and set him back 3 feet. All loads were chronographed and reflected the more powder used the faster the velocity.

I have worked up loads with my flintlock pistol and all chronograph data indicated an increase in powder showed an increase in velocity. I actually shot 90gr in my 54 pistol, but I think 72gr is more than capable of hunting and a lot easier on the wrists… LOL

There is a great video of a shooter on youtube shooting a 16ish 50 cal flinter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmGoIoKltxw&feature=related

My flinters...

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/data/536/Ken_Netting_Black_Powder_54_pistols_002.jpg

http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/data/536/Ken_Netting_Black_Powder_54_pistols_001.jpg

And a little better pic of this one...
http://www.handgunhunt.com/photopost/data/536/a_003.jpg

[Longwood]

I would pick a man up and set him back 3 feet.



Can we see the video?:bigsmyl2:

[TCTex]

I wish I had taken one, it was in the late 90’s when it happened. A gent named Thomas Fraser shot it with a test load. His front foot came off 6in a and his back 12in.(edited: that is suppose to be front foot came off 12in and his back came off 6in...) It picked him up and moved him back three feet. The next gluten who shot it braced and leaned into the rifle, but his front foot still came off the ground…

It was a sight to see…

[44man]

Caliber counts with BP. My old pistol is a .44 with a rifle thickness barrel and a lot of wood. I no longer have the book with readings from the chrono and just trying to remember I think it was 90 fps slower then 60 gr. But the gun only has a 6" barrel.
80 gr of powder in a .44 sure does not have much barrel left! [smilie=l:

[TCTex]

...But the gun only has a 6" barrel...80 gr of powder in a .44 sure does not have much barrel left! [smilie=l:
LOL. If you ever find that book I would love to have those numbers! (Note that I am actually being serious here!!) [smilie=s:

Ps, from my calculations, you should have 3.5in of barrel left with an 80gr load and 4.5in of barrel left with an average load of 40gr shooting a 6in barrel. So you lose about an inch…
(From 60gr to 80gr you loose 1/2 an inch of barrel and would have about 4in left from my calculations using a 60gr load... FWIW...)

Pss, were you shooting FF or FFF powder?


From what I remember of that 75cal mentioned above, it shot a 610gr .740 ball just over 2000fps. It literally took a Kodiak off its feet.


Sorry if I went overboard on the precautions on the BP pistol. Even though a BP’s chamber changes for every respected powder charge/load, it doesn’t mean they are all created equal. I don’t want someone on the net browsing to find that/these loads and try them in firearms that aren’t up to the task.

Duane

[44man]

Your precautions are good.
I used to build muzzle loaders, started 56 years ago. I bought curly maple planks at a kiln in Ohio. I bought a good lock, barrel, butt plate and trigger guard. I made everything else. I can't hold still or see as good anymore to make the cuts.
I knew Bill Large, Dan and Wes Kindig wanted me to build rifles for them but I would have gone broke. [smilie=l:
I have not shot that pistol in 25 years but remember having trouble getting good readings because of the smoke, the gas and smoke must have passed the ball! I was afraid to move the chrono too far out with the short barrel.

[44man]

Poor pictures, I need to clean them up.

[TCTex]

I have not shot that pistol in 25 years but remember having trouble getting good readings because of the smoke, the gas and smoke must have passed the ball! I was afraid to move the chrono too far out with the short barrel.
First, the smoke will never project before your projectile. My guess is that your projectile is breaking the sound barrier and that just isn’t going to happen… LOL (See my quote above from the Lyman and Hornady manuals on combustion and pressure.) Yes you will have smoke, that is the reason they have been called smoke poles… Muwahahaha!!

Second, it is your concussive report from you barrel that is messing with your chrony. I can shoot a 22LR at 15 yards and have to move 25-30 yards back to chrony my 308. Too much report from the barrel. Your older chrony might also be a culprit FWIW…

Back in the early 2000’s I was out with my black powder club and someone brought a rev war cannon. They decided to go to the range and set up a video camera at 50 yards behind some hay bales to record a shot. When they unloaded the hay they set an ice chest beside the camera and left it there. Someone made a comment about it and the gent placed the hinge side to the firing line. The gent didn’t set off the cannon, but he loaded up a blank (yes he loaded it the charge himself… LOL), and went down range and set behind the hay bales. At the shot all we saw over the smoke was an ice chest lead at 50 yards sore 30 + yards back. Remember this was a blank. The gent behind the cannon was shook up and had a headache. I remember the comments about a soldier charging a line and what would have been in his mind when one of those went off. It was quite an ordeal.

Third, If you are not using FFF in your pistol you should try it. Like you have said before and above, faster powder burns more efficiently in shorter barrels. Yes FF will work, but… … …

Also, you have plenty of rifling left, see my calculations above and note that they are over calculated because my powder measure has the inside diameter of .420. I took the total OAL size of the round ball and added it to the length. I didn't calculate for the ten thousands patch, but I figured the powder settling around the round ball would make up for that calculation.

Hope this helps!

Duane