A stupid question

[Beekeeper]

It must be stupid as I am the one asking it!
I have had the chance to shoot one of my concoctions of a BP rifle.
I am using Goex FFG
shooting a .446 GG boolit in a 43 Mauser barrel set up on a Martini Frame.
I am using Emmerts Lube
Barrel deminsions are .446 lan, and .449 groove.

My problem is I am getting maximum fouling.
Only knowledge about fouling is what I see other BP shooters having and I have 100% more than they do.
Will changing my lube to something like 50/50 Beeswax/ olive oil solve anything? It was suggested by another BP shooter!
Or do I need to look in another direction.

I Know it ain't a Sharps but there are other kinds of BP weapons out there you know and If possible I could use the help.


beekeeper

[Don McDowell]

If you're bullet is only .446 and the grooves are .449 you can change lubes till the cows come home and you'll not stop the leading.
Your bullet needs to be .449 at the minimum and .450 will likely be better.
Altho you may have problems with getting the proper diameter grease groove bullet to chamber.

[powderburnerr]

what powder charge ? are you casting soft lead ?
your bore size bullet will work if it is soft enough to bump up and seal the bore , but it haas to be fired with enough steam to make it bump up also ,.

[725]

The smaller the bore the more the relative fowling. FFG might be a might slow. I'd go FFFG.

[Beekeeper]

OK, I confused.
First I"m told that with BP you shoot boolits sized to the Lan and it will bump up to fill the groove.
Now someone says use groove sized boolits with BP.
Which is it.
My shooting partner shoots FFG in his 45/70 with a .457 boolit and gets minimal powder fouling.
I shoot almost the same caliber (only in a German barrel)only .011 smaller and get maximum powder fouling and no leading.
I need to know how to reduce the powder fouling ( sorry if I mislead you).

beekeeper

[Don McDowell]

You'll get excessive powder fouling with a loose bullet like that. If you are shooting grease groove bullets get them up to land diameter at the very least. 001 over is not going to hurt.
If you're shooting Goex 2f you'll need a bit of compression to make it burn cleaner. Also if you're using magnum rifle primers that can cause the fouling to be a bit excessive and hard.

[powderburnerr]

I didnt say you should ,I said you could if done properly is all ,

[Beekeeper]

OK lets see if I can get it all right and maybe get it in to my thick head.

The action is a Gahendra Martini(peabody) something or other.
The barrel is a 43 Mauser barrel that slugs out at.
Lan .446
Groove .449
Brass is 45/90 brass trimmed down and necked down to be the same as 43 Mauser brass.
With the Martini style action I do not need the "A" head brass neaded for the 43 Mauser.
Primer is winchester Large Rifle. ( little softer than the CCI I usually use).
Powder is FFG Goex 65 grains for P/P and 70 grains for GG
Boolits are P/P lyman439186 380 grain P/P so the patch is just engraved by the lands,and seated over a 1/4 inch emerts lube grease cookie , finger tight and touching the over grease cookie wad.
G/G is a Lyman 446110 340 grain, Emerts lube and seated finger tight to touch the over powder wad with no pressure.

So would you up the charge or compress what I am using now and add a filler if add filler what type?
The Cartridges of the World book says the 43 Mauser normal battle load was 70 grains of FFG . so am not sure if I should go over that.

Working alone is the pits as I get little or no info from the other BP shooters here as again I do not shoot a Sharps.

I do appreciate all the info and help gotten here but sometimes it can be confusing.


beekeeper

[Don McDowell]

You should be able to go up to 75 or 80 grs of powder in that case. Don't add a filler to that bottle necked case.
Your grease groove bullet probably needs to be .449 diameter minimum and going as far as .452 might not hurt.

[powderburnerr]

my ctg of the world shows a 370 gn bullet on top of 77 gns of Fg powder, for the 11.15x60R or 43 mauser,as the factory load.
If yours really is a 43 mauser your load is light both in powder and lead weight from its original loading,which would explain the fouling ,I say this because you have a ghendra, and c.o.w. only talks about the model 71 and 71/84mauser,
,also while my ctg of the world does not show bore and groove you could wrap your greaser and see if things clean up a bit,

,sorry to ceonfuse with my first statement ,it sounded as if you were looking for something different,

[Don McDowell]

If you look at the back of the COW chapter where it gives the demensions. The 43 mauser is a 44-77 just different name..

[powderburnerr]

Don the 43 spanish is the same as the 44-77 the 43 mauser has a longer neck , although in the book the powder charge is about the same ,

[John Boy]

11x60R or 11.15x60R= 43 Mauser, not 11.5x60) where R is mm of the rim diameter
Standard Load ... 386gr bullet (405gr, close enough) - 77grs FFFg powder - 1430 fps

[Don McDowell]

powderburner this is probably not a proper way to measure and compare... but .. the Lee 43 spanish dies don't size the full length of my fired 44-77 necks and they size the case necks so far down that it's a tight fit with those KAL bullets patched with 9#. Howsomever, the lee 43 mauser dies size the length of the 77 necks just right, and are just a tad tight for the .447 greasers and a good fit with the Accurate bullet wrapped in either 9# or the 8# paper..
That and my ancient old COW book shows the demensions of the 43 mauser as a dead ringer for the 44

[Red River Rick]

11x60R or 11.15x60R= 43 Mauser, not 11.5x60) where R is mm of the rim diameter..........

John Boy:

You may want to check that info out. "R" denotes that the cartridge is "Rimmed", and has nothing to do with the rim diameter.

RRR

[powderburnerr]

good thing you were looking johnboy I missed a 1 in the number.I dont type well
.
Don the measurements in the back do not coincide with my ctg cases,and I e-mailed you my pictures so as not to disrupt this thread any worse than it has been sidetracked

[Don McDowell]

Gotem and replied.
Ok I'll sit down and shut up now..

[powderburnerr]

that better now john?
its interesting how all these books are different
,
Beekeeper , it appears I have caused a lot of confusion , sorry there is a lot of conflicting info out there , especially for the old european rounds.
I show quite a few 43 rounds and all are close , so it sounds like you have an interesting rifle to play with ,you probably should measure your case against pictures if you can only get the small quantity of powder you go into it, it may be different. did you drop tube the powder into it?

[Don McDowell]

I am curious about that mauser barrel fitted to the martini action. Wonder if they had to cut new threads or trim the end of the chamber rethread and chamber....

[Beekeeper]

I started with a Gahendra parts rifle that had a toast barrel and no wood and made my own The Gahendra barrel thread is a **** shoot.
I did 2 of them and the threads are different in both.
There was enough meat there to tap out to the Mauser threads .
I hand filed the action until the barrel would clock as it originally had in the Mauser
When I seated the barrel I coated the threads with JPW and polished them. I added JB weld to the threads and set them home with 60 Foot pounds of pressure.
The JPW ensures I can someday remove the barrel if I want to.
All wood on both rifles is of my own making using furniture grade Maple and working it to make it look like walnut. ( learned how on the long rifle forum)

The one I am playing with now I had a barrel cut down (shortened and dovetails cut for a Lyman front sight.
I originally built a rear sight (stealing a design from Buckshot) but am only able to get out to about 400 yards with it so that is why I am playing with the vernier sight.

It shoots quite well other than the powder fouling and maybe by wiping between rounds or going to a slightly larger boolit I can solve that.

I built them as a means of staying sane during my wifes ilness and it was a great tharipy for me.

can provide pics if anyone interested.

beekeeper

[bigted]

been following along here and YES i would like to see photos of your projects!!!

[TXGunNut]

can provide pics if anyone interested.

beekeeper


Why, of course! Looking forward to the pics.

[Beekeeper]

Big Ted, TX Gunnut,
Will get pics today and will post them later today.
Thought I had them on a seperate hard drive but can't find them .
Need new ones anyway

beekeeper

[nwellons]

I shoot my .42 Russian Berdan (bottle nosed case) with FFG, soft lead and a Magnum primer. I take it every trip to the range.

I was getting some near the end of the barrel leading and went to a grease cookie. It solved my problem. May help your fouling problem.

[Beekeeper]

The first couple are of the gun I am playing with
The other is of a second Gahendra parts rifle I made into a Martini Mauser in full military form.
The barrel; on the Military one is 1 1/2 inch shorter than the original.
There was zero wood worth saving on either one so all of the furniture is mine and all hand made with hammer ,chisel , rasp, and hacksaw.
The vernier sight is what I am playing with now so that is the reason for the black tape. If it works I am going to put one on the Military version.

They were originally bought ti provide parts for a couple of Gahendras I have but being nearly one of a kind none of the parts are interchangeable so that is why I built the Martini Mausers.
As it was I had to rebuild strikers and mainsprings on both.The screws were pieces of round stock inserted and peened on both sides so I had to drill and tap everything to make them work.

What you see is over a year of work a couple of minutes or an hour a day.All work is done by hand as the only power equipment I have is the drill press you see in the pics.

Hope the pics are good enough as a photographer I ain't.

beekeeper

[montana_charlie]

One thing is for sure, Beekeeper, you are a determined son of a gun.

On that Soule sight, it doesn't look like a Sharps or Winchester base is the best choice for that tang. A base intended for a Gibbs, or one made for a Rolling Block may fit better.
The Soule sights on the Buffalo Arms site can show you some of the other styles.

CM

[Beekeeper]

don't know about the determination Charlie.
For me it is therapy.
My wife has Alzheimers and the guns and stock making keep me sane.
At least I can go out to the garage and beat the H**l out of something and not take my frustrations out on her.
Works for me and I get to learn a lot as I go along.
Nothing like the school of hard knocks and disasters to make sure you do not make the same mistake twice.
I have built almost 50 rifles in the last 20 years and to me it is the greatest calming thing I do.
There is no room for mistakes when you put it to your shoulder and pull the trigger.

Thanks for reading and giving a little encouragement.


beekeeper

[TXGunNut]

I like what you've done there. Good luck with the sight.

[Ramar]

Beekeeper,
Good job all around!!
Ramar

[montana_charlie]

don't know about the determination Charlie.
For me it is therapy.
My wife has Alzheimers and the guns and stock making keep me sane.
I am acquainted with two (elderly) men who each devoted about a decade to caring for their wives with Alzheimer's.
It is a terrifying disease, and takes a greater toll on the caretaker than the victim.

You are to be commended for your devotion ...

CM

[bigted]

YES YES YES...pictures pictures pictures. sounds like a grand rifle and a good walk thru all of whats needed for a good load.

as for the dumb***** that go to your range there and snub you for not shooting a sharps...i would try to find another place to shoot as you should NEVER be made to feel ashamed or not equiped with the rite kinda equipment...especially your choice of rifles and what you want to shoot in them. what a bunch of saps...your better off without that kinda dog dung...just scrape it offa yer boot and leave if you can find another place to shoot.

your getting great suggestions here and this is what i love about this forum.

[bigted]

ahhh i see...didnt get the last post in in time...great job sir. i doubly need to re-say that your shooting mates at your range should be the target instead of the mouthing off dimboys that they have proved themselves to be.

as for your caretaking...thankyou for your considerable gumption and for the devotion you have shown. you are to be comended for your caring and love and this comes from another that has seen firsthand what this terrible disease can and does do. hang in there and try to know when to throw in the towel...as charlie pointed out...this is devastating to the caregiver...especially when there is emotion and love involved. ill take this opertunity to say again a huge THANKYOU!!!

[Boz330]

Beekeeper, great work there, that is a fine looking rifle. I wish I had your talent.

Bob

[hiram]

Beekeeper-

You wrote GG for your bullet---did you mean GC for gas check. If so, don't expect your bullet to bump up and seal the bore with a gas check. I can't figure out what GG would stand for.

Another way to possibly get ridm of fouling is to use a duplex load. Like 2 gr of smokeless powder at the primer and then the black powder on top. If you want to try a duplex load, than you reduce BP 2gr for each 1 gr of smokeless. In other words, if you tried 2 gr of unique, reduce your 65 gr of bp to 61 gr.

[Wayne Smith]

Hiram, GG = grease groove boolit.

[montana_charlie]

Beekeeper,
Looking at the picture which shows that sight taped on the tang and remembering what you said about having it interfere with how you grip the rifle ...

They way you have it assembled puts the staff in a forward location on the base, with the long leg of the base pointing backward. That is the style for Winchesters.
Assembled that way, the eyepiece will be high in relation to the bore ... maybe too high to get a zero without a taller front sight.

If you turn the staff around in the base, than reverse the whole assembly on the tang, you get a different relation between the eyepiece and bore ... and a different arrangement for placing your shooting hand.

Might be a good thing to try while you are still dealing with tape, instead of holes.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you don't HAVE TO have mounting screws on both sides of the pivot point.
If it would fit the tang better, you COULD cut off the short leg of the base ... and make a new mounting screw hole right up close to the pivot, but hides under the staff spring.
The base would still be mounted with two screws, but they would both be located in the 'long leg' and the 'short leg' would be gone.

Just trying to be Presidential ... you know, 'flexible'.

CM


as for the dumb***** that go to your range there and snub you for not shooting a sharps...i would try to find another place to shoot as you should NEVER be made to feel ashamed or not equiped with the rite kinda equipment...

what a bunch of saps...your better off without that kinda dog dung
It happens here, too, Ted.
Beekeeper asked about how to read his Pedersoli sight. Mostly, he got opinions about quality.
Eventually, he got told he was holding 'junk'.

[martinibelgian]

About the only style of tang sight that will works on a Martini-style rifle without a higher front sight is a Dr. Goodwin, with offset staff. Forget about Soule's, the drums will put the minimal elevation even higher. As one who owns 3 Martini match rifles with a tang sight, I know....

[Beekeeper]

Well I think I got it right!
I cut the short end of the base off and the top screw hole from the other end.
Drilled and tapped the center of the base and drilled the tang.
Put a screw up from the bottom.
Drilled and tapped the tang for the upper screw.

At the range with it taped on I was about a foot high at 100 yards with the sight on its lowest setting.
I lowered it down the tang about 3/16 inch and think I am close enough.
Will find out the next time I am able to go to the Range
Setting it up and getting it parallel to the action took a bit of hillbilly engineering but it sets square now.
Now the next problem is figureing out how to read the darned thing but all things will work out in time.
Thanks to Montana Charlie and everyone that kinda gave me the umph to get it done

Here is a pic of the final product.

[TXGunNut]

Cool! Nicely done, Beekeeper! Looking forward to the next range report.

[Boz330]

Beekeeper, try this web page, http://www.tmtpages.com/vernier.htm it should give you the info you need. If that doesn't help I can copy the Pedersoli pages that came with my Gibbs on the sight. It gives suggested settings for the different ranges as far as MOA and barrel length.

Bob

[Beekeeper]

Thanks for the offer Boz330,
I think the page you referenced gives me the exact info I needed.
I now know how to read it so now the learning curve starts.

Thanks again everyone.

beekeeper

[Texantothecore]

Beekeeper, try this web page, http://www.tmtpages.com/vernier.htm it should give you the info you need. If that doesn't help I can copy the Pedersoli pages that came with my Gibbs on the sight. It gives suggested settings for the different ranges as far as MOA and barrel length.

Bob

Could you copy that list for me. I read your link and it was fascinating. Thanks.

[Boz330]

Could you copy that list for me. I read your link and it was fascinating. Thanks.

PM your address to me and I will throw it in the mail.

Bob

[Boz330]

Thanks for the offer Boz330,
I think the page you referenced gives me the exact info I needed.
I now know how to read it so now the learning curve starts.

Thanks again everyone.

beekeeper

Pretty easy once you understand the concept EH?

Bob