Leading and accuracy

[Chill Wills]

This pertains to GG bullets.

I am always amazed after shooting a good score in a Creedmoor match under a hot summer sun, wiping for fowling control, just how much leading a barrel can have and still, accuracy does not drop off.

At a match this weekend I shot a score at 900y and 1000y that I was pleased with. Then, as often is the case, was able to pull a few big lead smears out of the barrel with a tight patch and a few tricks.
However, leading and all, the shots went to call and the rifle behaved it self.

When shooting a match, with direct sun is on the barrel, it gets so hot you can no longer touch the metal, your going to get leading. I have yet to see the lube that allows lead free shooting in BPCR rifles when shooting long strings of fire in hot sunny conditions. We shoot 15 shots for record at each range and then sighters of course. Barrels get so hot you can fry eggs on them, as they say.

The real point I want to make is not the need to fix something but how well it works despite the leading. It is still amazing to me.

Punching the lead out would be nice to do without but I do not mind. If someday I ever get my PP bullets/rifle to shoot as well as my GG bullets I might not have leading of any kind. On the other hand I have shot PP in Creedmoor championships and it is a trade off. . . . problems for other problems. Right now, GG bullet are the best bet for me.

Just thought you needed to know this:p

[Don McDowell]

Did you guys get a good turn out on sunday?

I gave some serious thought to getting up and leaving at 3 am to come down... but then descretion got the better part of valor.:mrgreen:

[Chill Wills]

Hey Don, You missed a good one. Sorry you where not there. Stinking hot but readable conditions made it a fun day.

You wrote: Did you guys get a good turn out on sunday?

Except for Eron and Jackson (and me), it was all different people this match. We had a lot of fun and the scores were up too! It was a great day of shooting. I just need to get my PP bullets shooting better so I can be like you cool guys! I am getting there.

[kokomokid]

Thought we were doing something wrong. If I do a good job of wiping on my 32" K&P bbl it leads. Some of the cures suggested have helped , but it still leads.

[Don McDowell]

Chill I did get a chance to test some bore+ diameter patched bullets here at the house Sunday... Need to run those again and confirm, but I may have finally hit a patched load in this 44 that will shoot along with or maybe better than that postel.

Glad they're turning out for you guys down there. Looking forward to the next time I can get there.

[Chill Wills]

Thought we were doing something wrong. If I do a good job of wiping on my 32" K&P bbl it leads. Some of the cures suggested have helped , but it still leads.

Ya, all kind of things have been tried and claimed to work. Much of it lube related. A bunch of other novel ideas too. One only has to spend some time around the back of the line at the NRA Creedmoor championships on a hot sunny afternoon and see the barrel cleaning going on to know what really is happening in the barrel in these conditions. There are two kinds of barrels in these conditions, those that lead and those that are claimed not to. Check those guys scores:popcorn: I'd like five mins. with a rod and a tight patch on there barrel and lets see what comes out.

But, Cleaning out lead it is what it is and really not big deal.

Don, I have a dedicated paper-patch chambered rifle that shoots well. But not well enough to cause me to shoot it in a match. I think I need to work out the alloy and weight of paper to get the accuracy with this rifle to the point it edges out the Grease-groove bullets.

The chamber is cut so the 45-90 brass needs to be sized down to the point that only a 0.450" diameter PP bullet will fit. Only 1/8" of the rear of the bullet is in the case and the rest is in the bore. Something of breach-seated, bore guided start for the bullet just as the old dead guys did it. I know this is not new for you. Accuracy relies on getting the right patch thickness and alinement with the right powder charge.

More load work! (more time) Just got to do it as I can.

[Chicken Thief]

What is allowed regarding "ventilation"?
Can you use a humidifier coupled to a blowtube?
Maybe an ultrasonic humidifier?
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/mh-800-cool-hot-ultrasonic-humidifier-blue-white-124556?item=6

[Don McDowell]

Chill I'm about to tear my hair out on this patched for this 44, the accurate bullet shot well enough while confirming loads at 600 a little bit ago, but now all of a sudden the Tapered Gibbs bullet that has been giving me so much fits, shot super good and those devil paper rings went away....
Glad I have all those good grease groove loads still loaded.....

[Chill Wills]

What is allowed regarding "ventilation"?
Can you use a humidifier coupled to a blowtube?
Maybe an ultrasonic humidifier?
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/mh-800-cool-hot-ultrasonic-humidifier-blue-white-124556?item=6

Yup, you can as long as it does not become part of the rifle. Crazier stuff has shown up on the line over the years but does not stay. It is OK to try stuff and the only thing anyone objects to is if the rifle becomes the base of attachment, as an example, some kind of water jacket around the barrel. Like a water cooled Machine Gun has or some other crazy, not in the spirit of the game or era. But what you do to try to keep the rifle going between shots is mostly OK, like a gallon of ice water and a funnel down the barrel; I have seen that and stuff like that.

Then when you lay-down to make your record shot (or sit in some cases) it is just you and the rifle like God intended. :lol:

[RMulhern]

FWIW!!

Barrel De-leading Process

Postby hpguy420 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:27 pm
Guten Tag meine Damen und Herren,

Based on experience to date, one accuracy diminishing phenomenon that seems to raise its ugly head again and again is leading. And, quite often the offending substance is coating the bore unbeknownst to frustrated marksmen or markswomen.

As proof of point, a Lilja, match-grade, chromo barrel was put through the de-leading process last night. This particular barrel is capable of very fine accuracy. It is a 10-twist, 38-cal, 3.5 Winchester taper chambered in 38-72.

The first step in the process was to remove the preservative oil and bore-scope the barrel with a 25X Hawkeye bore-scope. The barrel, it's currently off its action, was last used at Herr Kidwell's fine fandango down GA way last October. Some of the land-tops were coated with lead and even the grooves showed sighs of leading. This type of leading is quite pernicious. Even after doing the "Closeted Banger" routine no lead signs were showing on the patches other than the faintest hints of gray on the patches. Most would think their barrel was squeaky clean; not to be, not to be; in this instance, and many more this writer has personally witnessed over the years. A very tight patch pounded through the bore with no signs of lead means the bore must be clean....NOT necessarily so bro.

So, bore-scoping showed a considerable amount of lead on the land-tops and some in the groove bottoms. Outers "Foul Out 3 Bore Cleaning System" might get the job done, but how long would it take. More importantly, could the device be use efficiently and effectively between relays? So, what to do, what to do? Well, there is a way to get that "soldered-on" leading out: JB Bore Paste, a bronze brush and large cotton patches. Here's what worked. And, I mean that due to judicious bore-scoping during the de-leading process as described below to see how much lead was being removed as the de-leading process progressed.

First, a large cotton patch was tightly wrapped around a new 38-cal, bronze brush. Next, JB Bore Paste was slathered on the patch so that it was saturated and kept it from unwrapping. The shortest, stiff, cleaning rod that would do the job was used to make the de-leading job easier. Tape was wrapped around the cleaning rod to indicate when the brush just poked out of the muzzle. Man, the first go, many reps of chamber-to-muzzle stroking interspersed with JB slathering, got some serious lead out. Without the bore-scope, it would not have been possible to see the lead and its removal. Several patching sessions and several new patches wrapped around the bronze brush were needed to remove all the "soldered-on" lead. The bore was cleaned and bore-scoped several times during the de-leading process to note the lead removal progression. Man, that bore is squeaky clean and bright now. I needed sunglasses just to look through the bore-scope :lol: :lol: :lol: , it was so shinny. Bottom-line, make friends with someone that has a quality bore-scope and have them check-out your barrel. More than a few frustrated friends have found peace and tranquility after they "got the lead out."
Cheers, DanT

[oldracer]

I have thought about this since I started shooting BP several years ago, but I am not competing, just having fun and trying what works. In relation to the lead, it would seem something is causing it to stick and as noted in the previous post it seems to streak in various places. If the barrel is getting that hot, from the sun and shooting that it can not be touched then the bore is probably 40 to 50 degrees hotter? It the lead is that hot I would suspect it would act as a sort of lube and actually help the bullet run smoother down the barrel? As noted, if the lead was actually "soldered on" then the lead bullet and the barrel did indeed get very very hot in the bore?

Now the next question would be has anyone actually measured the temperature at various points inside the bore to what they are during a string? I have seen articles and posts about pressure measurements with strain gauges so has anyone measured temps to what happens?

[bigted]

so a quick question from the peanut gallery...would a lube cookie help with this hot experience? i just started with em and am gathering all the info i can about the full effects of lube cookies behind both greasers and papered boolits.