S&W .357, 6" barrel

[44man]

Been trying to work loads for this one. The only bullets I have left are 158 and 180 XTP's. I can't get what I want with the 158's. The 180's shoot better. The gun gets sticky cases fast so I had to back down a little when working up. The gun is very grip sensitive and it is very hard to keep an even feel. I feel a slight difference in recoil once in a while. I always get one or two out a little and I will have to test each chamber to see if it is me or not.
I shot these at 50 yd's today. The left targets are the 158's, 296 and 2400 and the right are the 180's with 296.

[44man]

Picture didn't take, had to make a thumbnail.
Still nothing????
Oh well, the 180's put 4 in 9/16" and 1 out for 1-1/8" total.
I will keep trying pictures.

[redneckdan]

I agree that the k-frame is grip sensitive. I shoot 6 rounds in the x of a slow fire target, reload and spray the next 6 all over the left side of the target if I don't double check my grip.

[44man]

Another try. OK, got it

[44man]

Yes, the mod 29 is real bad too. Easy to hit the first five dead center and miss the next five. I never figured it out after about 7 S&W's. The very slightest change will move groups somewhere else. They are accurate though and do shoot better offhand with a two hand grip.

[Blackwater]

Just curious here, but have any of you tried smooth grips rather than checkered to see if they reduce or eliminate this tendency??? I've always preferred smooth grips on my handguns, and the change in POI is at least part of the reason. Checkered grips sometimes - well, OK, OFTEN - make me finalize my grip when I put tension on to begin the firing at a point that's NOT the same from one shot string to the next. I just shoot more consistently, especially when in a hurry, with the smooth grips. Maybe I'm just gettin' old and the grip's goin' south on me???

[Four Fingers of Death]

Why move your grip hand and adjust your hold? Shouldn't it remain in place and cocking, etc be done by the weak hand?

[44man]

You must take your gun out of your hand when they set targets or if you put it down to go down range. It's when you pick it back up that the grip changes. I could never tell no matter how I tried to feel it. Once I shot several 1/2", 50 yd groups with my 29. I put the gun down to change the target and shot 5 more and they were still in 1/2" but were 10" from the bull. I would hit 5 chickens dead center and miss the next 5, same on pigs, etc.
The smooth grip idea sounds good. I used to shoot archery competition and for a long time I would smear cocoa butter on my bow hand so the grip only fit in one spot. Felt funny shooting a greased handle but it worked. Not such a good idea with a large bore gun though. Foreheads are softer the barrel metal.

[dubber123]

Jerry Miculec that shoots for S&W has his own designed smooth grips, and I believe he also powders his hand with talc or cornmeal powder to make them more slippery. He says it makes the gun fall into a natural, repeatable position each time. Hard to argue with his success.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got a few pairs of them and find just about the opposite results. the gun moves around in the hand so much that in competion it just takes to much time to regrip all the time. A far better design for me is the houge woods with a palm swell and no finger groves. I hate to admitt it because i hate rubber grips but those rubber finger grove houges might be the best grip ever for a smith. The finger groves and the stickier rubber help keep the gun planted in your hand. Ive tried many grips on my ppc gun and keep going back to the rubber houges.
Jerry Miculec that shoots for S&W has his own designed smooth grips, and I believe he also powders his hand with talc or cornmeal powder to make them more slippery. He says it makes the gun fall into a natural, repeatable position each time. Hard to argue with his success.

[UweJ]

Just a thought,do you change the way you stand toward the target?
Uwe

[45r]

I have finger groove grips on my model 27 and PC hunter.I put my support hand index finger in front of the trigger guard.That keeps both hands parallel to each other and I found that keeps my grip consistant on all my revolvers and especially the smiths.Elmer Keith used the same hold and was considered the best and I see other good shooters like Brian Pierce use the same grip.Everybody has there own way but once I got used to this type of grip I have'nt had any group shifts after putting my gun down.I can't shoot quite as good as you do but I'm in my fifties now and need help so I'm getting an ultra dot 30 for my 454 casull.Do you think 2 rings will be enough to hold tight on a weigand base atop my model 83.I see you use them on your revolvers and shoot very well with them and I shoot better with the aimpoint on my 44mag PC hunter.They are less expensive and the silver finish ought to look good on my F/A.I can shoot inch and a half with the express sights at 50 yards on it now but hope to get a little better groups with the ultra dot and not have to concentrate as hard as lining up iron sights can be on sunny days and in low light when hunting dawn and dusk.I've gotten too use to optics for good shooting past 50 yards using iron sights.It will give me something new to play with on my birthday also.

[redneckdan]

i'm pretty sure my problem is not stance in relation to the target. I don't have the group shifting problem with my 1911 and I usually don't move my feet once I get set up at the line. WHen I reload, I crack the cylinder, shuffle to my left hand which opens the cyildner with the little and ring fingers, while the thumb ejects the shells. My right hand is reaching for more ammo. Once the cylinder is loaded I shuffle it back to my right hand while the left closes the cylinder. So the grip pretty much needs to be restablished after each string.

[44man]

45R, I love the Ultra Dots and have no problems with rings even on my .475. I like the Warne rings but have used the rings that come with the scope too. Red Dots are light. When you start to use a heavy scope, you need more rings.
Back to the S&W grip, I have no problems with it shooting off hand with two hands. It is Creedmore with one hand or from bags that the most problems occur.
It has always baffled me.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I had a ouge and it was good, but a pita to remove and replace. I don't know what happened to it, probably sold it. My first non standard grip was the Pachmyr, with the finger grooves, etc, which I used on my 586 for 14 years and after not using it for four years, went back to it and have been using it for the past 4 years. I haven't tried smooth wood ones.

[BruceB]

If, by speaking of "accuracy" we mean Bullseye-competition-quality accuracy (10 rounds/50 yards in the 3.39" ten-ring, ONE-handed), then any shift or movement of the gun in the hand is disastrous.

A Bullseye shooter who understands the chore, will pick up the gun with his WEAK hand, and very carefully observe how each finger sets itself on the grip. He will then assume his stance, bring the gun up to firing position with eyes closed, and then open them to see where the pistol points.

If the sights are not aligned, he will shift the grip and re-check until they ARE aligned when he opens his eyes. Once the sight alignment is achieved, THEN he will check for the correct sight PICTURE, adjusting his stance until the sights are on target center when he opens his eyes.

A study was performed several decades ago among top-ranked Bullseye shooters. It concerned their grip pressure on the gun. Almost to a man, they stated their grip force to be "just nice and solid, firm but comfortable." Uh-huh....when they actually had these men apply their firing grip to a pistol with a monitor, they found that virtually all of them were exerting upwards of 100 pounds pressure. I know that when I finished a relay in Bullseye, I could clearly see the imprint of my gun's checkering in my hand for a good twenty minutes after the cease-fire.

Most successful Bullseye shooters will not disturb the stance or grip until the cease fire is given. If he has a chair, the shooter will place it where he can sit down and stand up without moving his feet. He will not change the grip, either, once it's established, meaning that the gun stays in his hand the entire time it takes to fire the target. Grip pressure will be eased, but the positioning of every finger will not be altered.. Bullseye guns often have such aids as skate-board tape on the grips to avoid movement. Many shooters also use powdered rosin on the shooting hand for the same purpose.

These are critical! The flaws which can possibly ruin a good score are legion. There's a full-page display in the US Army Marksmanship Training Center Pistol Manual, entitled, "Summary of the Firing of One Accurate Shot"......there are over 120 separate items on that page!

Don't let the gun shift in the hand during a string if it can be avoided!

In earlier times, when revolvers were still common in NRA Bullseye, the shooter would roll the gun out of his palm to allow thumb access to the hammer for recocking in timed- and rapid-fire segments (5 rounds in 20 and 10 seconds, respectively). Obviously, this badly disturbs the grip between shots. However, the 3.39" ten-ring was at 25 yards for those events, not 50 yards as in slow-fire. The difficulty imposed, and time consumed by manual cocking of the revolver, is exactly why they disappeared from Bullseye once sufficiently-accurate autoloaders arrived on the scene.

[44man]

Buce, great explanation and explains to me why Creedmore and bag shooting is so hard with the S&W.
I never had a problem with Dan Wessons or the SBH, they only took a firm grip. There is just something about the geometry of the S&W grip that is different.
I have zero problems with the hog leg and have even shifted my grip a little when my knuckle started to get sore without losing a target. Seems like the old Colt SA was the best ever designed.

[Blackwater]

Just one more possibility you might want to try. I've noted that most people in gunshops like the feel of larger grips when they pick a gun up. Over time, I've theorized that this is because a larger grip tends to MAKE them use a somewhat firmer grip, and thus, they hold the pistol a bit steadier. As Buckshot noted, a firm grip DOES tend to steeady up one's hold, provided it's short of being "tight" and inducing tremor.

I've tended to think, again over time, that most people like and use grips that are just a bit too large in girth at the critical points. I had an old M-19 S&W with smooth target grips, and decided to whittle on them to test this theory. I started slowly, just using sandpaper to ovalize (is that a word?) the grips at the point where my index finger and thumb lay on gripping the stocks. Up to a point, I found that this made the grip easier to grip quickly and consistently. Too far, and the gun could "twist" in my hand as I grabbed it too easily.

I think we sometimes pay too little attention to the girth of the grips on the heavy recoiling revolvers we use, and this MAY (???) be at least a part of the problem you've experienced ... maybe??? You may need grips with either larger or smaller girth at the critical point.

Second possibility here - one of the most common gripping errors, especially when the pressure's on, or we're putting it on ourselves by WANTING good groups, is letting he little finger on the gripping hand get a little too frisky, and pulling the group to the side.

Ever notice how when folks pick up a revolver with a custom set of grips always have their eyes light up if their hands are close to the same size as the gun's owner's? This whole issue of grips is a challenging one to understand, and to make sweeping generalities about. We're all put together in different sizes, maybe jointed at slightly different "natural" angles, and so other many things, that it's mostly a cut n' try affair when it comes to grips.

Still, it might be interesting to experiment with a set or two of old smooth walnut grips (they're also easier to make look good when you're through sanding - can't help if you add bondo or something to increase some dimensions, though), and start whittlin' or sandin' on them until you find what works best for you.

It's frustrating when you're facing a situation like this, and can't find the answer .... yet. Persistence almost always wins out, though.