I guess it is true

[44man]

I have been suspended from the AR site. I have not posted for a long, long time and the last was about the doubling of the X frame .500 S&W. I explained why and how to fix it. Videos we took showed the cylinder unlocking and rotating backwards with hammer bounce firing the round that was first under the hammer before cocking the gun.
Others said it is a double trigger pull as does S&W.
Magic marker marks showed backward rotation from torque. They showed the hammer back to fall again without trigger movement.
Video was taken with a very experienced shooter that had the X frame double.
I said it can not happen if the chamber under the hammer is empty. The cylinder stop spring is too weak as is the hammer spring.
Those that said the hammer is pulled twice won out.
Strange that after a few months since posting, I was kicked off.
Small loss with small minds.
I have more information but resist showing it to protect a friend.

[exile]

Sounds like getting kicked off that forum is a badge of honor. Standing up for the ttuth is its own reward, or at least that's what I keep telling myself.

exile

[gew98]

If you are talking about "Arf.com" I feel you . I have found a bunch of toadies there...fanboys if you will. I rarely post there anymore.

[MBTcustom]

I would like to see your research. I have had so many preconceaved ideas burned before my very eyes here on castboolits, that I trust nothing but tried and true eveidence and evedence winns with me above all. What I really love about cast boolits is our straiforward search for the truth irregardless of what is perceived by the masses to be true. What is even better is that I have found we are not swimming around a a sea of opinions. Most of the time there is a truth out there that is solid and trustworthy, and this site is full of quite a few people who are dedicated to finding that truth and posting it for others to see.
Cast not your pearls before proverbial swine!
Post up your hard evidence here as it will be well received by us. Sorry you got kicked off, but what did you expect from a spray and pray website? Some folk's superstitions and preconceived ideas cant be bothered with the truth, but thats OK cause you have friends here, and I for one love it when something I believe gets replaced by something I know.
Seriously, I would love to see your pictures and your research! I know S&W revolvers better than some, but I never have seen something like what you have tested. Of course, I never have had any dealings with the 500 either.

[HollowPoint]

This kind of thing happens more often than we know. "Arm Chair Gunsmiths" and "Self-Appointed" know it all's seem to work their ways into positions of authority in virtually every forum on the internet.

The number of posts they've accumulated in their respective forums leads them to believe that they actually know more than they really do.

Generally speaking, in hindsight I've found that on the rare occasion when I've been faced with this kind of "Wolf-Pack" mentality and I leave a specific forum, it's usually for the best.

HollowPoint

[429421Cowboy]

I agree with goodsteel, we're men of science and fact here, if anything this site has taught me to not take every ready-made answer to anything unless there are facts to prove it. You have friends here and i for one respect your style and opinions, who cares about any other forum anyways?

[Echo]

After more than 30 years of casting, and over 40 years reloading, I still learn on this site. And I'm smart enough not to post what is only my opinion, without so identifying it as such. I, too, would like to see the video.

[akajun]

Sounds like the same problem that the early model 29's suffered with heavy shillouette loads, could it possibly be that the same design does the same thing??

BTW After a firearms malfuntion happened to me in a pretty unbelieveable fashion, I dont doubt anyone's claims anymore, only in hard evidence. Anything made my man can fail. Hell even steel anvils break.

[felix]

Fact! The cylinder does indeed rotate backwards upon some circumstance which its cause is unknown by me. Happened with a Mod 27. I lived near Springfield MA at the time, so no problem. Smith fixed it without hesitation, and the gun is as good as new. ... felix

The later models seem not to do that, even with very heavy loads. Perhaps the "fix" became standard for the later models. ... felix

[looseprojectile]

is to have the hammer end up on half cock.
Ruger .357 flattop. Several times.
Primer blew out at the firing pin indent and the hammer was blown back to half cock by the jet force. Have experienced near the same in the old model Super Blackhawk.
I would surely like to see how a build up of forces can allow any cylinder to turn backwards. The cylinder should be locked when the firing pin hits. The only thing that can unlock the cylinder is to move the hammer. Then it goes the correct way.
If the gun unlocks without moving the hammer it needs adjusting or re designing. More spring?

I have felt the rotation the boolit imparts to the gun from the rifling twist. With these big guns you get a lot more of everything.
Of course I ain't saying I was shooting anything as mild as factory loads.
Be interesting to see where this goes.
44man, would you expound on why you had to say the gun would not fire if the chamber was not loaded. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work?


Life is good

[WILCO]

There's another site other than Cast Boolits?

[44man]

It is purely a weak cylinder stop spring in some guns. The configuration of the stop makes it prone to recoil inertia forces to move it out of the cylinder notch. Torque makes the cylinder roll backwards. Many 29's had the cylinder turn back to the first shot and the next was a "click."
Hammer bounce is real in all guns, even SA revolvers and the only reason I can come up with is primer pressure against the pin from case pressures. I firmly believe in stronger mainsprings to limit this.
So what is wrong with the X frame in the .500? Just spring choice ONLY. There is not a single thing wrong with the gun that springs will not fix. Some work and some don't but I still trace it to the springs taken from the box. Many say the trigger is pulled twice but remember the second pull will be double action with more force needed. That is NOT what we seen, video showed no movement of the trigger or finger at all.
We marked the cylinder with a magic marker and in every case the cylinder turned BACKWARDS.
It is really possible some shooters might just shoot twice but I have to think it is real rare. It can't be done with a SA but we have seen the SA hammer well back when fired even before recoil starts.
Recoil is NOT a factor for hammer bounce. Recoil should go against the hammer and keep it in place. Bounce actually starts before the gun moves.
There was a problem with some Colt guns long ago where the pin punctured the primer and the pin hole was large enough for pressure to cock the hammer. That was fixed and is not the same thing. Some old Colt SA's would double but it was the NEXT shot that went off just like fanning the hammer.
I am sorry I do not own the videos or I would show them.
All I can say is if you have a S&W double, it is not your fault. It is a ten cent spring.
Do you remember the double strikes on primers from S&W guns? That is hammer bounce without the cylinder turning too far.

[375RUGER]

CASTBOOLITS is the first online forum, after previewing a few others over the years, I felt a fellow could be genuinely respected for his opinions on what we are trying to accomplish-good shoots! And learn something new.
IMO most of the shooting accidents on youtube happen to the members of those other sites. I couldn't believe some of the stuff i read over there especially in the reloading section.

Fun=No permanent injuries.

Thanks for the help this weekend 44man.

[44man]

is to have the hammer end up on half cock.
Ruger .357 flattop. Several times.
Primer blew out at the firing pin indent and the hammer was blown back to half cock by the jet force. Have experienced near the same in the old model Super Blackhawk.
I would surely like to see how a build up of forces can allow any cylinder to turn backwards. The cylinder should be locked when the firing pin hits. The only thing that can unlock the cylinder is to move the hammer. Then it goes the correct way.
If the gun unlocks without moving the hammer it needs adjusting or re designing. More spring?

I have felt the rotation the boolit imparts to the gun from the rifling twist. With these big guns you get a lot more of everything.
Of course I ain't saying I was shooting anything as mild as factory loads.
Be interesting to see where this goes.
44man, would you expound on why you had to say the gun would not fire if the chamber was not loaded. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work?


Life is good
On the S&W, the hammer does not have to move at all to unlock the cylinder. It is the design of the cylinder stop and inertia forces.
Not a bad thing if the spring keeps it in place and it really is that simple. I love the S&W guns so don't take me wrong.
A full cylinder for the first shot can turn backwards and fire the shot that was under the hammer before you cocked the gun. If that was empty, the gun will not double. But the next shot will then take you back to a fired chamber and you get a "click." From what I have seen that is the only way the gun will double, a full cylinder. After one shot, it will not happen and if the cylinder is short of the back chamber, the hand will pick it up and you will continue to keep shooting.
Yes torque counts and the more you control it, the better off you are. Weak shooters are more prone to doubling because the gun twists more, turning the cylinder more.
It really is crazy and from what I have seen I wonder how we shoot revolvers at all!

[looseprojectile]

In discussing this I am reminded of how much action we get from the short stroke piston in guns such as the M1 carbine and the M14 or the little puff of gas in the AR.
All it takes is a little jab on the firing pin to initiate the action of a revolver. Maybe as little as ten thousands of an inch.
I am "not" imagining the hand "not" keeping the cylinder from going backward.
A lot of things go wrong at high speed and under various forces.

As I said before, the loads I fired were way over what would be considered to be prudent.
I have already done those things and don't have to repeat them.
Does this happen with a stock gun with factory loads?

Life is good

[geargnasher]

I assume it only happens on a full cylinder because it's evenly balanced weightwise?

Gear

[felix]

Possibly, Ian, but I don't remember. ... felix

[Cap'n Morgan]

It is really possible some shooters might just shoot twice but I have to think it is real rare.

It will happen from time to time - That's why single trigger double barreled shotguns has some sort of delay mechanism built in, but I seriously doubt it is possible to perform an unconscious double-action pull on a revolver.

The hammer bounce is probably caused by the case being driving backwards against the firing pin. If that is the case (pun intended) a variation in rim thickness should directly relate to the amount of hammer bounce and should be easy to test for. The British gun writer, Gough Thomas, found that a too deep rim recess in a shotgun chamber would increase the felt recoil as well as wear & tear on the gun from the hammering of the case head.

[41 mag fan]

44man... I have this problem with my 500. I thought it was me, till what you just posted, it's the first shot only, I did notice that. And i watched my cylinder rotation, thinking it was skipping, but each time it rotated.
It doesn't happen every time, I might shoot 3 cylinders full no problems, reload, and it happen. It's hit and miss, might be first cylinder, might be 3rd or 4th or whatever.

Gear,
For me it only has happened on full cylinders, not partial loadings.

[41 mag fan]

One thing I will add to this, I have noticed it using the Lee and Miha 440gr GC. powder was anything from Lil Gun, Tite Group, BLC-2, Trail Boss and a few rifle powders.

44man, if you'll pm me, I'll send you my email address, I'd like to see the video and all. it'll go no further than me, I guarantee that. But i'd like to get mine fixed, as i like the 500 right behind my 480's.

[geargnasher]

My FIL's 29-3 does that with full-house loads. He kept fiddling with the hammer spring tension and called me more than once to complain about light hammer strikes. Every time I went to the range with him it never happened to me, until one time after about half a box and my hands were getting tired. Full cylinder, bang, cock "click". ***. Swing open the cylinder and fired round was under the hammer. It seems that if you limp-wrist it, the cylinder bolt unlocks under recoil due to it's own static inertia being greater than the power of the spring holding it engaged to the cylinder (the whole gun "pulls away" from the bolt) and lets the cylinder go backwards. I thought the hammer had to bounce some, too, for this to occur, but now I'm not so sure. I think the spring is all that holds the bolt when the hammer is down and the gun is firing.

My solution was don't shoot loads that hot, but the bolt spring needs to be fixed anyway.

Gear

[41 mag fan]

I could see that happening with full house power loads, that are at max loadings, causing cylinder lock up problems and double hammer strikes. It at least in my mind sounds plausible.

Thinking about it, my cousin and my son in law had it happen shooting my 500 X frame.
My cousin is stout so there wasn't any limp wristing to cause it. I was feeding him loads at 42 gr of H110, and it happened to him.

My son in law, I was feeding him woosie loads. I think he's a little limp wristed, still clinging to the back walls of the closet, I had him shooting loads with Trail Boss, 3/4 full or up to the base of my casts. happened to him to.
Even my light loads in my 480 has much more recoil than using full power loads of Trail Boss

[MBTcustom]

I pulled out one of my smiths and started dinking with it and observing what can and cant happen as it functions. I taped down the cylinder stop to simulate an event like the OP describes. I found that in this state, the cylinder is able to easily advance to the next live chamber, advancing in the same direction that it normally would, while it was impossible to rotate it in the opposite direction because its motion was blocked by the hand. I just pulled the trigger and held it down and dinked with the cylinder while keeping the trigger depressed. I also found that it was relatively easy to move the hammer back and forth in its track in this state, because it was not being called upon to help rotate the cylinder. I figure that when the trigger is pulled the hammer drops and the firing pin contacts the primer causing the cartridge to move to its furthest forward position. When the primers detonated and the powder is lit, the cartridge then slams backward with a lot of force, witch in the right scenario, would feasibly be enough to counteract the inertia of recoil witch, as the OP pointed out, is trying to keep the hammer down.
What I don't understand is what causes the cylinder to rotate in the first place unless its like the old hammer flipping trick (my personal theory). For those of you that don't know, take any hammer and hold it with the heads in a horizontal orientation, and flip the hammer in the air 360 degrees. The head will reverse direction exactly 180 degrees every time. If you let it flip twice before stopping it, it will be oriented correctly, having made one complete revolution in mid air. I theorize that this or something like it, is what is making the cylinder rotate of its own accord, because the hand is stuck in the fully extended position and is unable to be used to cycle the cylinder unless it is retracted in its vertical slot and actuated by the hammer again which is impossible without the trigger being released and cycled a second time as well.
Take your revolver and pop out the cylinder. Hold back on the thumb piece and cycle the action once. While holding down the trigger, work the hammer. You will notice that it is completely disconnected from the hand and cannot get a hold of it at any time while the trigger is remaining in its rearmost position.
Hmmmmmmmmmm
44man, what is your theory (or observation) of what causes the cylinder to rotate? I get every other piece of what you describe, and I do not doubt it in the least, but I can't get my head around that one piece of the puzzle.:confused:

[41 mag fan]

Tim,
I'm sorry i'm not following you here. Are you taking a hammer out of a gun and flipping it in the air? You got me interested in your observation.....just a little confused, which for me is normal!!

After rereading what you posted, remember one thing...I've had it happen using powders with very mild recoil....not just hard recoil powders like Lil Gun, Tite Group and H110

[MBTcustom]

No, sorry. I mean a ball peen hammer or a claw hammer. Give it a try, its a great machine shop party trick.

[41 mag fan]

Ahh Hah!! i've done that trick and you're spot on...man I was thinking a hammer from a gun.....I got scratch marks on my skull now!!! hahahaha


Guess I should add, my old shop teacher from when I was a machinist from 15 yrs ago, showed us that trick, the 1st day he was in class at my work. They paid for him to come in 2x's a week and teach us code writing.

[OneSkinnyMass]

I'll juggle hammers before I buy a new one in the aisle at home depot, get some weird looks but thats normal for me.

Skinny

[theperfessor]

Hey 41 mag fan, I have access to an ultra high speed digital video recorder. Draw your own conclusions why I mention that.

To be sure it is the gun and not the shooter, is there a way to anchor the gun in a Ransom rest and still duplicate the problem?

[leftiye]

As far as evidence goes, if one pulled the trigger once on a full cylinder, and found two empties afterwards, it should be over. Double fire, no possible argument. If a model 29 can do it, an X frame could well be more prone to double fire. This shouldn't be a shooter issue, it is a safety issue. Guns should not be able to do this. Only needs a stronger bolt spring to fix it.

As for cylinder turning, could it be recoiling off of the hand?

[MBTcustom]

As for cylinder turning, could it be recoiling off of the hand?
Oh that's cleaver! I'll bet you're right. I too would like to see some highspeed footage of this phenomenon.
What I really want is a selector switch on the side of the frame! Heh Heh.

[frankenfab]

My 8 3/8" 500 Smith doubled on me a couple of times. It only happened with H110 and 440 gr. boolits.

I decided the caliber was just not something I wanted any more.

[500MAG]

I use 440 gr. with H110 in my 500 S&W. I have not had it happen but would love to see the video so I can lookj for it.

[geargnasher]

What was happening ot us was with a full cylinder, first shot, the gun would fire and immediately kick the cylinder BACK one hole, so looking down the gun normally the cylinder rotated clockwise and locked in the next notch, leaving a live round under the fallen hammer. When the hammer is cocked or the DA pulled for the next shot, it brings the just-fired empty back under the hammer again, leading to "click". Great way to check for flinch, bad way to make a follow-up shot. When the hammer's down, I don't believe the hand is engaged in the cylinder ratchet at all, and the bolt is the only thing securing the cylinder in position. The cylinder indexes in reverse, I believe, due to direction of rifling twist and the torque of the handgun. I'm a southpaw and FIL is righthanded, it did it to both of us but much more with him. I think the hold has a lot to do with whether or not the cylinder rotates when it unlocks or not, many maybe be unlocking with no harm done and the shooter unaware, but if the gun can twist it might cause the jump.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

When the hammer's down, I don't believe the hand is engaged in the cylinder ratchet at all, and the bolt is the only thing securing the cylinder in position.
That's not true gear. The hand remains in the fully extended position until the trigger is released. Now the hand can be pushed backward in its slot with some pressure, but couple that spring with the inertia that is throwing it forward upon firing. I don't see how the gun gets both the hand and the cylinder stop, and the hammer to all move away from the cylinder at the same time while magically getting the thing to move in the opposite direction than it was designed to. At first blush, I would say that in order to get the gun to even come close to such a strange coincidence, you would have to have it tuned just right.
Again, not doubting the fact that it happens, just wondering how in the heck it does happen.
This is about the strangest thing I have ever heard of with a S&W revolver.

[41 mag fan]

Hey 41 mag fan, I have access to an ultra high speed digital video recorder. Draw your own conclusions why I mention that.

To be sure it is the gun and not the shooter, is there a way to anchor the gun in a Ransom rest and still duplicate the problem?

Keith,
You got the Ransom Rest? I'm sure if anything we could figure out a way to anchor the gun.

This has got my interest, since 44man mentioned it and I thought all this time it was just my cylinder not catching and rotating. But my 500 has maybe 250rds thru it, so it's not wear and tear.
I bought it off an old boy who put 1 cylinder thru it, factory loads, and couldn't and didn't like the recoil.

But lets get together and try this out, heck I still owe you a dinner/lunch anyways!!
If you haven't got my ph# pm me, and I'll send it, we can figure out a saturday or sunday to get together, and I can get some loads and cast going to try to replicate the problem I'm having and see if its the gun or me....

I can get some loads up on the one I remember it happening to.

[MBTcustom]

Right on fellers! If you need help with fixturing, I can provide that as I have a machine shop. PM me!

[41 mag fan]

Thanks Tim, with Keith being a machinist and teacher at USI, he'll figure something out!! But you never know we might need a third brain to figure something out!!
But you might get with Keith on it, between the both of you, I'm sure something could be built or figured out.

Lord knows my brain wouldn;t be much help! I'm just a coal miner!

Keith might have to put that new CNC he's got to use in making something up.

If I remember correctly, I had this problem happen shooting 2 handed and off a rest, so now I'm at the point I'd like to know to solve the problem or answer the question as to why its happening.

[theperfessor]

I'd have to get permission from my Dept Chair to take camera out of lab. When our Dean OKed purchase of camera by a colleague he laid down some stipulations, the last of which was "and don't let Keith get hold of it or he'll be out taking pictures of his bullets".

But this is second year I've help that same colleague with his research by building equipment for him that simply doesn't exist anywhere else, and we just got done doing a four hour webinar for a local business together, and he is more than willing to go to range with camera and computer.

My Dept Chair and I get along fine, I'm sure he would OK it, so it's just a matter of getting time to do it. I'm putting this on back burner, not forgotten, not imminent.

[geargnasher]

That's not true gear. The hand remains in the fully extended position until the trigger is released. Now the hand can be pushed backward in its slot with some pressure, but couple that spring with the inertia that is throwing it forward upon firing. I don't see how the gun gets both the hand and the cylinder stop, and the hammer to all move away from the cylinder at the same time while magically getting the thing to move in the opposite direction than it was designed to. At first blush, I would say that in order to get the gun to even come close to such a strange coincidence, you would have to have it tuned just right.
Again, not doubting the fact that it happens, just wondering how in the heck it does happen.
This is about the strangest thing I have ever heard of with a S&W revolver.

Well, I couldn't remember for sure, but it would have to pop back out of the way to let the cylinder back up, and it does happen somehow. It puzzles the heck out of me, too. No damage is occuring to the hand, either from the backskipping, so I don't know what's going on.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I'm putting this on back burner, not forgotten, not imminent.
There are many tests we can do without the camera in the mean time.
Darn them torpedoes! Full speed ahead!

[geargnasher]

I'd have to get permission from my Dept Chair to take camera out of lab. When our Dean OKed purchase of camera by a colleague he laid down some stipulations, the last of which was "and don't let Keith get hold of it or he'll be out taking pictures of his bullets".

But this is second year I've help that same colleague with his research by building equipment for him that simply doesn't exist anywhere else, and we just got done doing a four hour webinar for a local business together, and he is more than willing to go to range with camera and computer.

My Dept Chair and I get along fine, I'm sure he would OK it, so it's just a matter of getting time to do it. I'm putting this on back burner, not forgotten, not imminent.

Keith, you would do the cast boolit world the service of the century if you could take some muzzle exit footage with cast boolits in bolt-action rifles. Seeing what preceeds the boolit out the muzzle, and seeing how lube jettisons, and seeing what happens if the base is nicked would confirm a lot of theories.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Its too bad that a group of shooters as large as this one cannot be organized to the point that we could buy such a camera and have our own testing facility equiped with an Ohler shooting lab etc.
I wonder if that is possible. We are big enough.

[41 mag fan]

Keith, you would do the cast boolit world the service of the century if you could take some muzzle exit footage with cast boolits in bolt-action rifles. Seeing what preceeds the boolit out the muzzle, and seeing how lube jettisons, and seeing what happens if the base is nicked would confirm a lot of theories.

Gear


Its too bad that a group of shooters as large as this one cannot be organized to the point that we could buy such a camera and have our own testing facility equiped with an Ohler shooting lab etc.
I wonder if that is possible. We are big enough.

Maybe one of ya would know, I've got a digital video camera, would that be able to be used to see whats going on or would the gun recoil, boolits exit ect be to fast for it? I'm not a camera man, and don't know if it'd work or not.

In fact we bought it 3 yrs ago and never have used it.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Well, I couldn't remember for sure, but it would have to pop back out of the way to let the cylinder back up, and it does happen somehow. It puzzles the heck out of me, too. No damage is occuring to the hand, either from the backskipping, so I don't know what's going on.

Gear

My guess would be that under recoil your finger releases the trigger partially. allowing the hand to fall out of the way allowing the cylinder to back skip

adding to the why it happens more to your father in law than it does to you or more to a tired shooter than a fresh one

maybe add that to the list of things to test