Hollowbased wadcutters and semi-wadcutters in the Vaquero

[Buckshot]

.........Actually the semi-wadcutter isn't much of one and is more wC then anything else. I had produced these in a swage die I'd made, using the Lee 452-255RF as the starting point. I'd cast them out of pure lead, then lube sized'em .452". Of pure lead they wieghed 267grs.

When swaged they miked .4536" with a rather deep hollowbase. I have photos of them on a previous post titled 'Swage die' or something close to that :D. I loaded 150 rounds total. Each box of 50 had 10 rounds of each load. I used Bullseye for the powder in charges of 4.5, 4.8, 5.0, 5.3, and 5.5grs for each boolit. I had 50 each, original design lube-sized to .452" then a box each of the WC and SWC.

The 50 rounds with the regular boolit shot like crap, as per usual. Such a nice looking boolit too, but the Vaquero continues to treat them badly. I can add pure lead to the things I've tried with that slug :lol:

I'd fired the original design boolits first, as a control. I was afraid the swaged boolits would shoot no better, however I was glad to see that from the git-go they shot much better. I was also afraid they'd keyhole, besides just being bad. I was also concerned about leading. Yet they punched nice clean wadcutter round holes and there was no leading in the barrel. There was some of what I call 'flash' leading on the periphery of the forcing cone, but it wasn't any worse then any other I'd see there.

The chamber mouths were also slick and clean. The only real lead problem was some accumilation just ahead of the case in front of the ramp in the chamber, and it really wasn't a problem. Don't know if this was from the .4536" nose going into the .451" chamber mouth or an artifact left from the hollow bases.

To date this revolver hasn't been really accurate. ABout the best it has done consistantly is 2.5" and on occassion maybe a tad smaller. It likes the Lee 452-190SWC and the RCBS 45-250F the best. However with these swaged slugs, it turned in some almost matchgrade groups, at least for this pistol.

It seemed to favor the SWC's and the 3 midrange loads for both type boolits. In most of these 10 round groups you have the usual tight ones and then 3-4 spoilers. I did have the chronograph set up, but something was amiss as it was showing crazy velocities, so I don't have any chrono data.

I was hoping that the swaged boolits might have made the improvement they'd shown in the 38 S&W Victory model, but that didn't happen. I did shoot the best group I'd ever shot with this revolter, being essentially a one holer with one flier. Yet that was one group out of 15 that were NOT one holers, or even close to that.

It was interesting, but not the panacea I'd been hoping for.

................Buckshot

[Bodydoc447]

This is probably a dumb suggestion but have you tried opening up the throats to .452" or .4525"? It seems to help in a lot of Rugers.

Bodydoc447

[Buckshot]

This is probably a dumb suggestion but have you tried opening up the throats to .452" or .4525"? It seems to help in a lot of Rugers.

Bodydoc447

.........I've thought about it some. The chamber mouths are .451" and the groove is the same. Probably wouldn't hurt to have'em .452" at least. I'm just proud they weren't something like .449"!

...............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

To date this revolver hasn't been really accurate. ABout the best it has done consistantly is 2.5" and on occassion maybe a tad smaller. It likes the Lee 452-190SWC and the RCBS 45-250F the best. However with these swaged slugs, it turned in some almost matchgrade groups, at least for this pistol.

.........I've thought about it some. The chamber mouths are .451" and the groove is the same. Probably wouldn't hurt to have'em .452" at least. I'm just proud they weren't something like .449"!


................Buckshot

Richard,

From what you have written so far, my guess is that you have a slight alignment problem. It likes short bullets and semi wadcutters. I assume that means shot like semi wadcutters (undersize) too. And hollow base bullets that the base colapses easily. See if this is true, run your finger nail around your cylinder stop notches. Do this very slowly starting on the inside coming up and out. Then around the radius for all sides. If you feel a burr, that cylinder is being forced into alignment. The burrs can be removed with a sharp edge held almost parallel to the surface so it doesn't mar the bluing. Done correctly, you will never notice the job.

Opening the cylinder throats may help because it will allow everything to turn just a little. But I would guess that this gun is a candidate for fire lapping. Then after you fire lap it the barrel is going to be a little larger than the throats because every bullet goes down one barrel, then you can open your throats to what ever you need. If you fire lap them open first, they will cut toward the center and when you open them, you might see a big improvement. If they can't get to the center, they will cut a taylor throat into the forcing cone to help alignment.

Sounds like we aren't talking much here. I would say 24 slugs would do it. Or you can just shoot a taylor throat in with about 1000 rounds of hot JBs. It will be a compromise of a taylor throat and a widened stop notch for that cylinder. If you fire lap, the gun will remain tighter because then the notch won't have to burr (widen).

[44man]

Buckshot, reslug that bore! I have never seen a Ruger with a .451 bore. I am betting the throats are smaller then the bore. Revolvers are hard to slug because you can only go from one end. Driving a slug all the way through is sure to give you a smaller slug. If the bore in front of the forcing cone is tight from being screwed into the frame, it will size down the slug. You can feel it with a tight patch on a jag. In this case it has to be fire lapped to remove the tight spot.
Those throats should be .4525 to .453 and that bore will be at least .452.

[44man]

buckshot, I sent you a private message

[StarMetal]

Wrong again 44man....you can slug a revolver from both ends. You remove the cylinder (in the case of a single action) or swing the cylinder open (in the case of a double action) and insert your soft oversized slug into the throat and tap it into the barrel by putting a square piece of hickory or oak stick in a vice with enough of the stick protruding and using the gun as the hammer so to speak tap the slug into the bore flush with the forcing cone. Be sure to support the cylinder on a double action, or better yet remove it. Then with short dowels (your choice of materials) repeat the process till you get as far as you like, then tap back out with a rod inserted through the muzzle end. Viola!!

Joe

[Pop_No_Kick]

Wrong again 44man....you can slug a revolver from both ends. You remove the cylinder (in the case of a single action) or swing the cylinder open (in the case of a double action) and insert your soft oversized slug into the throat and tap it into the barrel by putting a square piece of hickory or oak stick in a vice with enough of the stick protruding and using the gun as the hammer so to speak tap the slug into the bore flush with the forcing cone. Be sure to support the cylinder on a double action, or better yet remove it. Then with short dowels (your choice of materials) repeat the process till you get as far as you like, then tap back out with a rod inserted through the muzzle end. Viola!!

Joe

StarMetal, U should put this info in the Newbie getting started
Section. As I Myself was wondering how i was going to slug a Colt Official Police .38 DA 4" bbl.

P.S. < Remove the Cyl. it's easier and u dont put it in a bind>

The method I used was as exactly what you have described ( I drove the slug appox 1.5").

Thanx's
Chuck.

[9.3X62AL]

Joe--

Hey, I used to know that--then my agency went to autopistols, and the knowledge departed soon thereafter. More evil effects of bottom-feeding stutterguns.

Another interesting factoid.......on the very same day as Buckshot's 45 revolver test series, a Burrito Shoot was held. I'm certain there's some reason for the oversight of not having described the event's outcome and dynamics--which was a LOT of fun, offhand engagement of the metal dinger plate at 200 meters with the cast boolit iron sighters.

[bravokilo]

Wrong again 44man....you can slug a revolver from both ends. You remove the cylinder (in the case of a single action) or swing the cylinder open (in the case of a double action) and insert your soft oversized slug into the throat and tap it into the barrel by putting a square piece of hickory or oak stick in a vice with enough of the stick protruding and using the gun as the hammer so to speak tap the slug into the bore flush with the forcing cone. Be sure to support the cylinder on a double action, or better yet remove it. Then with short dowels (your choice of materials) repeat the process till you get as far as you like, then tap back out with a rod inserted through the muzzle end. Viola!!

Joe

The weather has been a little steamy here lately, so maybe I'm missing something. How is this method any different than just running it through the barrel? The slug is still coming out past any possible tight spot ahead of the forcing cone. ???

BK

[StarMetal]

brav

One reason I will give an example for. Alot of tight spots in hand gun barrels is where the barrel threads into the frame. The tight thread fit compresses the metal in this area. Let's say it's a 45 barrel and all of the barrel, until it gets to that threaded portions, is a nice .452, but the threaded portions is .450. Well you only need to lap out that threaded portion and do it from the rear. This way none of the nice .452 portion of the barrel gets messed up. Simply put, no sense in lapping the whole barrel.

Joe

[44man]

starmetal, bravo is correct in that the slug is still squeezed by the tight spot. The only way to get a good measurement is to get the slug near the muzzle and upset it in the bore and finish pushing it out the muzzle end. A very iffy situation for someone unless the recoil shield and the rest of the bore is protected. It would take a series of brass rods run in from the rear and a hardwood block against the recoil shield. Then upset the slug with a brass rod from the muzzle end. I know it can be done, but I would not recommend just anyone doing it. The same as getting the gun near a vise while forcing a slug through. Too easy to slip. Let's leave the tough stuff to the experts.
Same as lapping the tight spot itself. The bore would need several collars in it to guide the rod. The rod should have a stop on it so the slug does not exit the forcing cone all the way and it is best to also have a muzzle protector. Someone can ruin the bore with the lapping rod unless they know exactly what they are doing. Then there is the problem of getting a lapping slug in from the rear. I would not tell someone to force a grit loaded slug in from the muzzle, so again, quite some force is needed from the rear to start the slug. I won't go into explaining how to put the slug in from the muzzle first and then load the grit. I have been a gunsmith for many, many years and would not tell someone else to do it, I could, but not the average shooter.
Fire lapping will do most of the cutting right at the rear of the barrel and almost none by the time it gets near the muzzle. The result will be, the tight spot is reduced and a very, very slight taper put in the bore. I say this is the safest way for the average shooter to fix the problem.
You seem to delight yourself always telling me I am wrong, but you can put someone else in a bad way with their prized gun.

[StarMetal]

44man

Buckshot isn't exactly a novice at this game and he's the one that started the thread and you're the one that said "Revolvers are hard to slug because you can only go from one end." So if you didn't want someone who is a novice not to ruin their own prized handgun, why basically tell a lie about a revolver can't be slugged but from the muzzle only? Novices can read stuff on just about anything and anywhere and get into trouble. There's alot of fellows reloading that shouldn't be reloading and they come on here for help, what are we to do? Tell bug off, you're too stupid to learn this..you might ruin your prized gun or hurt yourself or someonelse? I'd take my chances at Buckshot being a better gunsmith then you claim to be, alot of your stuff doesn't impress me or others for that fact.

Joe

[bravokilo]

Wrong again 44man....you can slug a revolver from both ends. You remove the cylinder (in the case of a single action) or swing the cylinder open (in the case of a double action) and insert your soft oversized slug into the throat and tap it into the barrel by putting a square piece of hickory or oak stick in a vice with enough of the stick protruding and using the gun as the hammer so to speak tap the slug into the bore flush with the forcing cone. Be sure to support the cylinder on a double action, or better yet remove it. Then with short dowels (your choice of materials) repeat the process till you get as far as you like, then tap back out with a rod inserted through the muzzle end. Viola!!

Joe

Okay, now I'm confused AND blind. I don't see the word "lap" in there anywhere. I was under the impression that the problem at hand was how to get the internal dimensions of a revolver barrel WITHOUT going through any possible tight spot at the barrel/ frame junction. It would seem to me that you should find out IF there is a tight spot before you lap anything. Then again, nobody ever accused me of being the sharpest tool in the shed.

BK

[44man]

It seems to me that your first explanation for slugging would have also left him with too small a measurement as many others here pointed out. That has kept you changing your tune all through this post. Buckshot may be good with his guns, but how would I know that fact.
I have experience with the general public and see first hand what people try to do with their guns. I have to respond to things with a grain of salt as to not confuse those that can't do things for themselves or get them in trouble, ruining a good gun. Simple is always better until a point is reached where a qualified smith is needed. There are many things I will not attempt because special tools are needed. If I can't make the tools I have to buy them which in my case, being retired, is sometimes out of the question. I can get the trigger pull on a SBH down to 1# safely, with sure ignition but I would never tell someone here how to grind and stone the surfaces or how to hand make a new longer transfer bar and fit it. But I am sure you would so you could show how smart you are.
It seems every time I post something, you get very angry. Not the response of an intelligent person.

[StarMetal]

44man

I see how easy it is for you tell all us how smart you are. How you can get a trigger pull down to #1, make a longer transfer bar, etc. yada, yada, yada. Would you do my handguns for me?

Joe

[44man]

Have you got the money?

[44man]

Star, two hand made transfer bars in the guns. Notice the heighth. The originals on the box.
The SBH has an 18 ounce. trigger and the BFR is 16 ounces. So, are you going to sue me for two ounces?

[Bass Ackward]

Joe,

<<I'd take my chances at Buckshot being a better gunsmith then you claim to be, alot of your stuff doesn't impress me or others for that fact.>>

Dang. I would have to shut down if every post had to impress somebody. Or the right people. It's called an exchange of ideas. Isn't it?


Bravo,

<<It would seem to me that you should find out IF there is a tight spot before you lap anything.>>

There are several reasons to lap. Or I should say to fire lap. The only reason to hand lap is to remove a constriction. But don't let anyone kid ya, you can very easily solve one problem, not solve alignment, and create a twist rate issue at the same time. The biggest question is how much needs to be removed? Here, two seasoned gentleman on this thread are debating how hard it can be to get this dimension just right. But even after you do, how do you measure mis-alignment?

What the heck happens to a new handgun when it is shot?

Many people get a new handgun and start out shooting jacketed in it. They shoot how ever many it takes until the gun starts to shoot with what are termed "proven loads". What is happening in this process? What are they really doing? There are some positive and negative things taking place. First the positive.

Well, there is some smoothing of surfaces that takes place. Some twist rate correction. And some minor dimentional change. What also happens is that the gun fights to be able to establish bullet center. That means the forcing cone wears where the bullet contact takes place. And the throat wears directly opposite of that point as the cylinder is .... forced into position. The leade on the rifling wears and changes to a lesser angle. That means that it also lengthens the forcing cone. This wearing process is aided by heat and powder blast that continues the erosion. The longer this throat wears, the less angle a bullet has to take to come to barrel center. That means less stress on the gun and the eventual cast bullet to come. These are the positives to good alignment you are trying to make happen.

In the mean time, comes all the negatives that are taking place at the same time, it's all part of the break in process, but it is still .... wear. Something has to give. As the cylinder tries to rotate into alignment, usually you are getting wear on the timing hand that's fighting this effort. Same with the timing notches at the back of the cylinder where it is making contact. A little wear here is OK and may just solve minor alignment. Maybe not. During this same time, the cylinder stops can be catching hell as well. This is identified by a continuing "to burr". Meaning that the end of it's travel to one side is still .... not .... far enough to provide for "satisfactory" alignment. So it bends that outer edge, or burrs it. Also the cylinder stop may be wearing in the frame at the same time. How much wear depends on exactly how bad the alignment is. And how long this process takes until you shoot a gentler forcing cone or "taylor throat" into the gun. I have seen guns that the cylinder not only rotated left and right after lock up, but up and down too. Not a real good situation. The larger the throats are at the beginning above bore diameter (eventually filled by a cast bullet), the more this alignment error is magnified. This is because it in essence means the bullet makes contact with the throat earlier. So all those jacketed slugs may not have helped anything but preventing leading. Since a lead bullet won't wear the throat or forcing cone like jacketed did, FULL WEAR has to happen to the critical pieces. (Why shooting undersized bullets for throats, Keith style, are recommended by most manufacturers.) A bore diameter bullet had room to move without wearing these parts. It is also why some manufacturers cut way larger throats. Another way to correct bad alignment and fight stress with bore diameter bullets.

So .... how bad are our cylinders out? This is how fire lapping can help if mis-alignment is minor. You don't have to know or care. Let the bullet cut or polish what is needed as long as it is fairly close. If not, the wear still takes place anyway because something has to give.

Fire lapping can speed up the break in process without really dimentionally changing anything. The forcing cone get's polished where contact is made and the throat on the other side is .... turned slightly in a matter that ultimately ends up allowing for a gentler transition for a cast slug. Does it always make for a more accuracte handgun? No! But it does cut down on the amount of wear that the gun has to have happen to the critical parts. Hand lapping can only remove a constriction, then you still have to wear all the same areas anyway. Tollerances are held to much better levels on guns today. So minimal fire lapping can be all that is needed to eliminate alot of wear.

If done correctly with lead and not copper, .001 of "excess" alignment error can happen with .0005 on the cone, and .0005 on the throat. That is accomplished with about 24 shots. Same thing happens with 1000, full power, jacketed bullets. You still get the good wear, .... but your critical parts wore too. You can do it either way. But jacketed bullets are expensive if you are simply shooting them for breakin. This is why I advised firelapping with a few shots.

[StarMetal]

Bravokilo,

I didn't address what you posted. You are correct in there is no difference in finding that here is a tight spot in the barrel somewhere by pushing a slug all the ways through the barrel. Then after that we all know that you then find out where that tight spot is.

Bass

Wouldn't you assume that the mass of a cylinder, especially with loaded cartridges in it, really slams the cylinder stop pretty hard just from the inertia of the spining cylinder would peen, raise a burr, whatever you want to call it, on the stopping side of the cylinder notch? I'd love to examine the notches on Jerry Miculek's revolver. I think some of the wear you are associating with out of alignment is caused by what I just stated. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for one minute that's there's out of alignment in alot of revolvers. How do you measure that you asked. Well with a cylinder alignment tool. Does the average shooter have that? Most likely not. Here are a couple of very unscientific ways. One is by looking at the powder residue pattern on the cylinder face. It leaves a pattern of how that particular cylinder lined up with the barrel breech. A better one yet is to take an empty gun and put a piece of aluminum foil over the breech plate on the firing pin area, and not to interfere with the cylinder ratchet or the pawl. Then cock the gun and shine a flashlight at the gap between the cylinder and the breech face to put light on that aluminum foil. This iluminates the cylinder and by looking through the barrel you can see if there is major misalignment of the cylinder with the barrel. No this is not going to show you minor measurements, but the human eye is remarkable in how small of a thing it can focus. Of course the thing to do is take it to a wear equipment pistolsmith and have him use the alingment tool.

44man

I was teasing you about doing my handguns for me. If you didn't know that, then I apologize for leading you on. I do my own guns. You see, I too WAS a practicing gunsmith, but gave it up and now only do stuff for myself, or maybe a very good friend. My advice to a novice (one who at least knows how to take his firearm apart PROPERLY and reassemble it CORRECTLY) to use one of the spring kits before attempting any stoning or polishing. In alot of cases these give a better trigger pull. Stoning is a very critical procedure and someone not well versed in it can completely remove the harden surfaces on important areas like the sear.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Wouldn't you assume that the mass of a cylinder, especially with loaded cartridges in it, really slams the cylinder stop pretty hard just from the inertia of the spining cylinder would peen, raise a burr, whatever you want to call it, on the stopping side of the cylinder notch? Joe

Some maybe, but not like you are thinking as long as the notch is wide enough that it isn't fighting alignment.

The real stress on a cylinder stop is vertical stress from shooting. Recoil is born by the back of the cylinder bracing up against the frame and the front part of the crane against the front of the frame. This is the reason the Rugers have such strength. The single action is solid steel front and back. The Redhawk has a fairly large front bearing area inside that stout frame.

The only real force felt on the cylinder stop notch once alignment is satisfied, is down on the latch itself as the frame stretches under pressure. That's why you usually see bright steel on blued guns in the bottom of the notch long before you see any shine on the sides of the notch where it slides up in. Most movement on this notch is longitudinal along the axis of the bore. It's also one reason why the cylinder stop and notch are round instead of square. The notch itself has a certain .... "slop" on the sides of this notch to allow alignment sure, but to facilitate this expected rocking motion too. That's why it doesn't fill the whole notch lengthwise.

Some S&W's are notorious for rocking so far and pushing the cylinder stop down enough that they fly open with heavy loads. S&W recommends a stiffer cylinder stop spring, but this spring does little to fight 35,000 psi, once wear in the notch has reached this point. That's why the Redhawk has that front lock up latch to help fight left and right force. This way the cylinder stop isn't torked to much one way or the other in the frame when it too is pushed down. So Redhawks are stronger for that reason too. Even if the cylinder stop slips out of the notch, the cylinder "resists" opening.

[44man]

OK, star and bass, a couple of good posts here. I agree about the fire lapping and it should be done before the cylinder is reamed on the Ruger .45 as it just might open the throats enough. Ruger does not force their barrels in as hard as they used to and very few lapping rounds are needed. The stainless guns are harder to cut much out of with the lapping boolits and might need a few more shots. Once this is done the throats have to be measured and then if needed, they should be reamed or lapped by hand so a .452 bullet can just be pushed through each throat.
For all of you who want to know why I made the transfer bars; When the trigger pull is reduced beyond a certain point the trigger spring will kick the finger foreward a little when the sear breaks. This will drop the factory transfer bar down to the lower edge or even off of the firing pin (Ruger in their wisdom makes them only long enough to cover half of the pin) causing misfires or hang fires, dangerous thing. I make mine to reach the top of the firing pin to eliminate it dropping off the pin. I cut them from tool steel, harden and temper them. That SBH has 56,000 rounds through it. It has no end shake, no wear on the hand or ratchet, side play on the cylinder is the same as when it was new, the cylinder lock and notches have no wear or peening on them. I used it for IHMSA and it has never been cocked fast. It will still group into one inch at 50 yd's. It does no harm to change to a lighter trigger spring, but I never go to a reduced power mainspring because that reduces accuracy. In fact I replaced the spring every two years to keep it strong. Years ago, I won Ohio state IHMSA with that Ruger, hitting 79 out of 80. Now it just kills deer and tin cans.
To keep your guns from wearing, use STP on the pin and ratchet.

[StarMetal]

44man

Amen on Ruger's transfer bars only covering half the firing pin. Made me wonder what their thinking was on that.

I have an old three screw Blackhawk in 45LC that I not only shot the dickens out of, but abused it some with hot loads..that is until I got that out of my system. It's as tight as the day I bought it. There's no doubt Ruger makes some stout firearms and out of good materials.

Joe

[44man]

I forgot to mention that the heighth is critical. If too long and you pull the trigger hard and fast to raise the transfer bar all the way, it can get under the upper part of the hammer and prevent it from firing. This has to be adjusted so with it all the way up, the hammer will still go against the frame without the transfer bar interfering with it.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/9A2690ACC2C49CA/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/F62E788DB7547E8/standard.jpg
On the left is a SWC group with 5.0grs Bullseye (yup, gotta durned ole flyer in there (or OUT there). The right hand target is a WC and 5.5grs of Bullseye.

Both were 10 rounds, 25 yards off sandbags. Stainless Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt, 7.5" bbl. Point of aime was 6 o'clock on the bull.

..............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

[img]Both were 10 rounds, 25 yards off sandbags. Stainless Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt, 7.5" bbl. Point of aime was 6 o'clock on the bull.

..............Buckshot

Richard,

Yea I would fire a few lapers. And maybe the correct question is not is it going to help? Maybe it should be, what can it hurt?

After I did, I would get a set of magnifiers and see if you have any signs of abrasion from these slugs at the muzzle. Rotate it 360 degrees and see if it tells you anything.