When it comes to the BB and the Kel-Tec p-32...

[gunfan]

While the Buffalo Bore .32 ACP +p loads bring the small bore cartridge up to the performance levels of an intensely loaded .32 H&R Magnum, it can damage some of the lighter guns.

I have heard of reports of the Kel-Tec pistols suffering from spring fatigue and frame damage after firing as few as 20 rounds of Buffalo Bore's "uber" .32 ACP ammunition. While this "high-octane" ammunition performs well in full-sized .32 pistols, extended use will exact it's toll on the smaller handguns.

Let's face it, when it comes to the .32 & .380, the larger the pistol, the greater the service life. This is a plain, immutable fact. Until Kel-Tec engineers a stronger polymer for their frame, I can't, in good conscience, recommend shooting Buffalo Bore ammunition in their pistols. I will strongly suggest that their owners purchase, and use, the Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ ammunition for self-defense purposes.

For FEG, CZ (Yugoslavian), Beretta Model 70 and other steel and alloy-frame pistols, the Buffalo Bore pistols are an excellent personal defense round. These provide superior penetration in every way. In small bore (or lower velocity) rounds, this is how "stopping power" is truly determined.

There is no "free lunch".

Scott

[fecmech]

I rode my P3at pretty hard with the RD 100 gr bullet and a lot of 120 gr 9MM bullets and after 1400 rds I had a small crack in the slide. Called KT and they said send the top end in. Twelve days later received complete new top end (slide,barrel,spring& guide rod) no charge. I'm impressed with how tough the Keltecs are!

[gunfan]

I rode my P3at pretty hard with the RD 100 gr bullet and a lot of 120 gr 9MM bullets and after 1400 rds I had a small crack in the slide. Called KT and they said send the top end in. Twelve days later received complete new top end (slide,barrel,spring& guide rod) no charge. I'm impressed with how tough the Keltecs are!


I am on my lunch break. As I type this, a Kel-Tec P-11 resides in my shoulder holster. While I like the pistols, I realize their limitations and load them accordingly.

If you are feeling "frisky" you might try shooting Buffalo Bore's 100-grain .380 from your P-3AT. You'll find that their +p offering is "just what the doctor ordered" for the cartridge. Be forewarned: I don't know how hot you were handloading your "home-brewed" loads, but their +p round is a hot number! :veryconfu

Scott

[fecmech]

If you are feeling "frisky" you might try shooting Buffalo Bore's 100-grain .380 from your P-3AT. You'll find that their +p offering is "just what the doctor ordered" for the cartridge. Be forewarned: I don't know how hot you were handloading your "home-brewed" loads, but their +p round is a hot number!
I load my RD's for carry pretty close to BB at a little over 900 fps out of the KT. BB's numbers are for a 4" bbl and in the 900 range from a Keltec. My practice loads I run at 800 fps now, was running 850 before. That little gun is a handful when you run 100 grs over 900 fps!

[gunfan]

I load my RD's for carry pretty close to BB at a little over 900 fps out of the KT. BB's numbers are for a 4" bbl and in the 900 range from a Keltec. My practice loads I run at 800 fps now, was running 850 before. That little gun is a handful when you run 100 grs over 900 fps!

I see. the .380 from the larger handguns (BDA, Beretta, et. al.) are quite robust and can handle the BB loads. From what you've said, your handloads could make quite an "impression" from what once was termed a "pocket gun".

I truly enjoy it when both the .32 and .380 exhibit more "bounce to the ounce" than the standard American "lawyered" loadings.

Scott

[troy_mclure]

I shot some from my p32, the slide was hammering on the ejector block pretty badly. I stick with hornady critical defense and federal hydrashocks.

[gunfan]

I shot some from my p32, the slide was hammering on the ejector block pretty badly. I stick with hornady critical defense and federal hydrashocks.

I cannot understand why anyone would want to put "speed brakes" on a cartridge that's already too slow for expansion from such short barrels. This makes no sense.

The best bet for both .32 and .380 ACP loads is penetration! Without it, these rounds won't accomplish the task at hand very well at all.

I draw these conclusions from autopsy results from the Albuquerque New Mexico's Coroner's Office. These were real street shootings not abstract lab tests.

Scott

[Love Life]

Interesting reading. I have looked at the small .32 and .380 pistols, but the snubnose in my pocket loaded with Lyman 358477 over a stiff charge of unique usually helps me to resist the urge.

Having said that my buddy carries a little 380 pistol. I think it is the LCP. I have played with it and it is a very slim little number!! I wouoldn't feel under armed at all.

[fecmech]

I have looked at the small .32 and .380 pistols, but the snubnose in my pocket loaded with Lyman 358477 over a stiff charge of unique usually helps me to resist the urge.
I think that is an excellent choice and I have a Model 36 snubby that I like a lot. My only problem with them is size and weight. Even the airweight models end up about 18-20 oz. loaded and a little on the fat side(I'm 5'6") so they are not a pocket gun for me. The newer Scandium guns are bulkier than the older J frames and hard for me to hide in a pocket. My P3AT is 11 1/2 oz. loaded with 7 R.D. 100gr bullets and .8" thick. I carry it behind my wallet in my front pocket all the time. I don't even think about it, it's just there. Not a thing wrong with the J frames if you can carry them all the time, they just don't work for me.

[LUBEDUDE]

Gunfan, as Keltec fan myself, your points are well taken.

[gunfan]

LUBEDUDE: I carry a Kel-Tec P-11 daily. Were I to carry my Titan II in .32 ACP, the lightest load I wish to carry is a Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ cranking along at about 950 fps at the muzzle.

When I have $40 at my disposal, I'll be buying a 20-round box of BB's 32 ACP +p 75-grain, HCLFP. These should develop a healthy 1025 fps (at the minimum) from my 3.75" barreled pistol.

I think that placing 8 of these strategically in someone's chest should readily convey the idea that they should go somewhere else to die.

Scott

[troy_mclure]

I cannot understand why anyone would want to put "speed brakes" on a cartridge that's already too slow for expansion from such short barrels. This makes no sense.

The best bet for both .32 and .380 ACP loads is penetration! Without it, these rounds won't accomplish the task at hand very well at all.

I draw these conclusions from autopsy results from the Albuquerque New Mexico's Coroner's Office. These were real street shootings not abstract lab tests.

Scott

The hydrashocks penetrated 6+ inches of deer shoulder + hide to stop on the bone. The Hornady passed completely thru the neck about midway up.

This was on a freshly hit 150ish lb buck last fall.

[troy_mclure]

Besides I start aiming low, just above the pelvis, and I can get off 4 rapid shots before the muzzle climb takes the sight off the target.

[gunfan]

The problem with the short-barreled .32 Auto pistols, is that everyone wants a "handful of dynamite" in a pistol the size of a cigarette package that weighs 3 ounces! To date, there's no technology that allows this.

When it comes to the .32 ACP it is best served by a mid-sized handgun Bersa, Beretta, Tanfoglio (Titan II) or other handguns with a minimum of a 3.5" barrel. One must have sufficient runway for velocity to develop. It can't be adequately generated in barrels less than two inches without battering lightweight guns to pieces!

In a four-inch barrel, the .32 ACP works quite well with fast burning propellants and heavier (73-75 grain) bullets. This lets the cartridge develop every last foot-per-second of which the 17mm semi-rimmed case is capable. In this barrel length, Buffalo Bore's HCLFN bullet excels. 1125 fps and 220 fpe are realistically generated from the smallbore round. This load reaches well into the hot .380/.38 Special territory, allowing the bullet to penetrate and punch holes in vital organs as designed. According to the manufacturer, these bullets can penetrate as far as 20 inches. If they connect with the spinal column/cord, it can shut down a bad guy's CNS.

That is the primary object of the exercise, isn't it?

Scott

[Old Ironsights]

I carry an NAA Guardian .32acp and run Fiocci 60gr SJHPs exclusively.

NAA used to have the data on it on their website, but I selected it because it had the best external ballistics of the loads given. IIRC it moves out over 900fps. In wet phonebooks (yeah, I know) they open up to .60 and retain the majority of their weight.

I also annoyed the heck out of a bunch of Zombie Hunters at a locak shoot when we did a BUG run and I hit the pepper popper 5 out of 7 at 25 yds (the gun has virtually no sights)

So I'm not too worried about its capabilities.

[LUBEDUDE]

Howdy Gunfan - I too carried the P11 for roughly 8- 10 yrs maybe. Great gun! Then I came across my Holy Grail. Note, I said MY Holy Grail. I am Not trying to sell anyone or change your mind or anyone elses. It was love at first sight when I saw that Rohrbaugh 9mm on the table. I could not pull out the cash quick enough. I haven't looked back for 6+ years.

For My type of carry, wearing shorts most of the time, 13.5 oz unloaded is tough to beat for a 9mm.

To add, I think your addititional thoughts on 32's and ballistics are spot on. I used to carry a P-32 as well.

Good contribution.




http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_75704fcf6a2ad58c3.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5511)

[gunfan]

In all honesty, I can't take credit for the foregoing analysis. The research was conducted on the streets of Albuquerque, New Mexico and in real street shootings with small bore handguns. The lack of penetration with hollow point ammunition was established by analyzing hundreds of shootings. My friend is an attorney that works closely with the Albuquerque Coroner's Office.

The street, my friends is where "the rubber meets the road".

Scott

[LUBEDUDE]

Well I reckon that's why it just makes sense.

Thanks for sharing.

[gunfan]

Howdy Gunfan - I too carried the P11 for roughly 8- 10 yrs maybe. Great gun! Then I came across my Holy Grail. Note, I said MY Holy Grail. I am Not trying to sell anyone or change your mind or anyone elses. It was love at first sight when I saw that Rohrbaugh 9mm on the table. I could not pull out the cash quick enough. I haven't looked back for 6+ years.

For My type of carry, wearing shorts most of the time, 13.5 oz unloaded is tough to beat for a 9mm.

To add, I think your addititional thoughts on 32's and ballistics are spot on. I used to carry a P-32 as well.

Good contribution.




http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_75704fcf6a2ad58c3.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5511)

Very nice! If I could afford one, I'd buy it. Perhaps you saw my Titan II thread that had been posted a while ago. As soon as I'm able, i plan on buying some "carry ammunition" (BB's .32 ACP +P loads). When I take out the garbage on Thursday night, I like slipping that little chrome-plated wonder in my waistband for the 5 minutes it takes to trundle the garbage can back to the alleyway.

Slipping into my shoulder holster is another option, but after wearing it of 10 hours a day, climbing back into it is a bother. I like grabbing the Titan and sliding into either my waistband or back pocket. While it isn't small, the butt sticks out far enough to be drawn readily, and the single action brought into play at a moment's notice. From its 3.75" barrel, the 73-grain Fiocchi ammunition generates a good 960 fps and about 149 fpe. It's FMJ construction assures decent penetration and will put the "hurts" on someone in a hurry.

Scott

[LUBEDUDE]

I did not see your thread about your Titan.

However you bring up a great point. Going armed while taking out the garbage.

A thread in itself.

As trivial and quick as that chore is, that seems to be when "something happens".

I know after a hard days work and maybe even packing heat all day; we come home, dress down want to wind down and relax. The last thing we want to do when taking the trash out or getting the mail is going the to gun safe and getting healed- just for 2 minutes.

But you never know if and when.

That's why we carry in the first place don't we?

[gunfan]

Yes, my friend. The last time I drew on a man, I was taking my soon-to-be-ex-wife to work. the fool (next-door neighbor) insisted that we had cat-napped his feline boarder. The idiot left threatening messages on our answering machine. He assaulted me with his fist, and was met with my P-11! He was arrested and charged with Assault IV. The moron took it to trial and was convicted. I could have predicted his actions.

On the other hand, street violence doesn't usually present a "calling card".

Scott

[LUBEDUDE]

"Moron" sounds about right.

[FergusonTO35]

I shoot my Kel-Tec P32 alot, its my daily carry gun. I can shoot it better than any small handgun save for my Beretta 21. My current carry ammo is Fiocchi 73 grain FMJ, it reaches ~900 fps out of the short tube, I have chrono'd it. I know that this round will penetrate, it will not be stopped by a leather coat or prison muscles. I am loading the Ranch Dog bullets right now and will be compiling chrono data and doing penetration tests on them soon.

Any favorite loads for the Ranch Dog bullet in the Kel-Tec P32 out there?

[EMC45]

My pastor carries a P32 KelTec with FMJs. That little bugger is accurate! I loaded up some 77gr. cast Lyman bullets over Bullseye (not sure of the load, I am away from my book now) and they were shooting quite impressively. I heartily suggested he carry ball ammo.

[gunfan]

I shoot my Kel-Tec P32 alot, its my daily carry gun. I can shoot it better than any small handgun save for my Beretta 21. My current carry ammo is Fiocchi 73 grain FMJ, it reaches ~900 fps out of the short tube, I have chrono'd it. I know that this round will penetrate, it will not be stopped by a leather coat or prison muscles. I am loading the Ranch Dog bullets right now and will be compiling chrono data and doing penetration tests on them soon.

Any favorite loads for the Ranch Dog bullet in the Kel-Tec P32 out there?

No, but I'd be willing to bet that 850-900 fps will serve you rather well. The bullet must penetrate to render the bad guy dead.

I truly believe this is the objective.

Scott

[gunfan]

My pastor carries a P32 KelTec with FMJs. That little bugger is accurate! I loaded up some 77gr. cast Lyman bullets over Bullseye (not sure of the load, I am away from my book now) and they were shooting quite impressively. I heartily suggested he carry ball ammo.

Good thinking.

Scott

[FergusonTO35]

I tried the RD boolits in my Kel-Tec today and unfortunately they don't work. The batch I have are sized at .313, they hang up on the beginning of the rifling unless I seat them rediculously short (>.900), which is not safe. I wonder if sizing them to .312 would work? My pistol's barrel has a .312 groove diameter.

[gunfan]

I tried the RD boolits in my Kel-Tec today and unfortunately they don't work. The batch I have are sized at .313, they hang up on the beginning of the rifling unless I seat them rediculously short (>.900), which is not safe. I wonder if sizing them to .312 would work? My pistol's barrel has a .312 groove diameter.

That may work as long as the loaded dimensions of the cartridge don't wander outside of the original perameters.

Scott

[Larry in MT]

My Kel-Tec 32 is only carried when I can't carry my Model 38 AirWeight ---- but it's a great, little gun for its size/weight. I can hit a gallon can @ 5 yards repeatedly and quickly and it's never failed to fire/eject/ etc ... I think a heavier load would slow me down on repeat shots --- this thing is already a handful during rapid fire.

I've only carried Hornady XTPs in it but maybe should try FMJs ---- The FMJs that I've used in plinking also feed without problem.

I'm interested in why specifically the Fiocchi is recommended? Are they better/faster?

In my 22 Mag handguns, Fiocchi is 100 fps slower than WW (same weight 40 grain JHP) and very inaccurate.

My P32 (one of the earlier ones) came blued!

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/5f1209c3-1-1-1.jpg

[Old Ironsights]

At one time the Fiocci 60gr SJHP was the fastest load/weight combo listed on the NAA site for the .32acp Guardian (before the Keltec came out) It is/was also the least expensive per round to buy so you could afford to practice with what you carry. I bought 2 cases in '96 and have a little over 1/2 case left...

[FergusonTO35]

The Fiocchi 73 grain FMJ factory load reaches 890 fps out of my pistol, yes I have chrono'd it. I'm presently working up a load with a 90 grain SWC that reaches 800 fps, .32 S&W Long performance out of a tiny gun.

[gunfan]

At one time the Fiocci 60gr SJHP was the fastest load/weight combo listed on the NAA site for the .32acp Guardian (before the Keltec came out) It is/was also the least expensive per round to buy so you could afford to practice with what you carry. I bought 2 cases in '96 and have a little over 1/2 case left...

I believe that they might just be okay for "fun" but the problem with these small-bore pistols is their lack of "runway". If they expand from a short-barreled pistol, you won't penetrate to the vital organs where the "stopping" of the attacker takes place. This is why I insist on using FMJ ammunition in the .32 ACP cartridge.

A dear friend of mine that is an Attorney in Albuquerque, New Mexico works extensively with the County Coroner's Office. It is through his extensive studies/observations with the subjects of said terminal performance with small-bore handguns (both .32 and .380 self-loaders) that when hollow points open, they stop short of reaching the vital organs, failing to result in the desired effect. As my friend once quipped, "Why would you want to put 'speed brakes' on a cartridge that is already moving at subsonic speeds"?

Scott

[Old Ironsights]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page920.htm


... Fiocchi 60gr SJHP, factory, 854 ± 0.500 ft/sec. Perforated entire 16.0 ± 0.031" block and recovered at 0.304" diameter, no expansion.

Notes:
Weapon – Kel-Tec P32, with 2.75” barrel length
Distance – 10.0 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face
Test site conditions - 80 deg F
Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 8 minutes

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page820.htm


Fiocchi 60gr SJHP. Impacted at 977 ft/sec, penetrated to 16.0" of gelatin and out of the rear of the block. Slight flattening of the nose was present, no expansion occured.

Notes:
Weapon – Kel-Tec P32, with 2.75” barrel length
Distance – 10.0 feet, muzzle to gelatin impact face
Test site conditions - 63 deg F
Time out of refrigeration prior to shot impact - 3 minutes

[longhorn]

Thanks for that posting, O.I. Good info, cause I've been hurtin' all over for a new mousegun, perhaps a Seecamp .32 for summer and permanent pocket wear!

[gunfan]

Note that expansion was virtually nonexistent. There is no real virtue in shooting hollow point bullets in the small caliber, short-barreled pistols. They do not expand/perform well.

Again, penetration is a virtue in these small bore handguns.

Scott

[Old Ironsights]

Note that expansion was virtually nonexistent. There is no real virtue in shooting hollow point bullets in the small caliber, short-barreled pistols. They do not expand/perform well.

Again, penetration is a virtue in these small bore handguns.

Scott

Understood. But I hope that you also noted that these showed 16" penetration in 10% gelatin, which was better than most heavier FMJs...

[gunfan]

Understood. But I hope that you also noted that these showed 16" penetration in 10% gelatin, which was better than most heavier FMJs...

Such expansion in ordnance gelatin generally translated to 8" of penetration in a human torso. The faster you can drive a heavier projectile, the greater the likelihood of penetration. The momentum of the heavier bullet should not be discounted.

Scott

[Ragnarok]

I just bought a Beretta Tomcat .32acp..knowing full well these are prone to cracking the frame with 'hot loads'(or any loads according to some folks). The manual itself states the power level of ammo..and gives a short list of suitable ammo.

My personal thoughts are that you can boost the performance of any cartridge trying to turn it into something it was never designed to be. The .32acp was never designed to compete with the 7.63mm Mauser/Luger. Some guns can handle more pressure and battering that comes with it...some cannot. Heck!..even some of the larger handguns ain't all that good at handeling hot +P or +P+ ammo. Slides bust..frames crack!

It's like any gun...load ammo hotter/heavier at your own risk. If you 'jack up' up the gun then nobody to blame except yourself.

The ammunition manufacturers who make hot self-defense ammo in small chamberings know full well it will get used in tiny guns by folks who didn't bother to read the pistol's owner's manual(or heed the manual if they did read it). It all boils down to the same..it's the gun-owner's responsibility if they want to use hot ammo in a pistol designed for something else!

To me...the little Keltecs look expendable if 'magnum ammo' is to be used. I know for a fact the Beretta Tomcat will break itself with hot loads....it's all over the shooting forums..and the manual states as much..use ammo with less than 130 foot-pounds energy.

When I bought the little Tomcat a few weeks back after much reading and thought....I resigned myself to 71gr ball ammo. If I want bigger performance...I will simply carry a bigger gun.

[gunfan]

I once had a Beretta Tomcat. I wish that they would produce the Model 100 with a 5.9" barrel once again. That pistol could make the most of the Buffalo Bore ammunition.

Scott

[FergusonTO35]

Gunfan, I think I know your friend in Albuquerque, he's a good guy. I'm taking my pistol to a gunsmith this week to see if he can open up the throat a little bit so the RD boolits will chamber. I've used data from his site with some 76 grain round nose boolits and they work great.

[45 2.1]

The problem with the short-barreled .32 Auto pistols, is that everyone wants a "handful of dynamite" in a pistol the size of a cigarette package that weighs 3 ounces! To date, there's no technology that allows this. Actually, there is......... look here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=126367

When it comes to the .32 ACP it is best served by a mid-sized handgun Bersa, Beretta, Tanfoglio (Titan II) or other handguns with a minimum of a 3.5" barrel. One must have sufficient runway for velocity to develop. It can't be adequately generated in barrels less than two inches without battering lightweight guns to pieces!
Not all those little guns are plastic. There are a myriad of well built small steel 32 ACPs that work quite well for things like this.

Scott

The little 67 gr. HP gors thru varmints quite well with good expansion. Autopsy shows better destruction of tissues than the flat nose slugs. The boolit was designed especially for this cartridge to increase its effectiveness. Tests in wet clay against factory high performance loads (none were BB though)show equal penetration with a larger permanent cavity left in the clay with these cast HPs

[.5mv^2]

I loaded 93 grain .308" berry RN bullets up to 900 fps in a Walther PP. Have shot them in a FEG and a NAA 32acp Guardian.

My guardian cracked its trigger control rod, a year later my PP cracked the safety lever. Gave up shooting my rather strong hand loads.

All three of the guns shot the loads well but apparently they were too heavy.