Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt ....arrrgh!

[oldfart1956]

Well folks after having such steller results getting my older brother to try cast boolits we ran some of my loads thru my .45 Colt Blackhawk with the new Nikon scope this weekend and it sucked. Cylinders have been reamed, mold is a Lee .452 SWC 252gr. panlubed in 50/50 beeswax&olive oil then sized then tumble lubed in Recluses excellent 45/45/10. New sized and trimmed Starline brass, loads ranging from starting loads to well below "Ruger Only" loads. Using Unique, Universal Clays and Trailboss powders. The lead is wheel-weights and a bit of tin. Groups are running from "can't keep it on a 8X10 sheet of paper" to.....get this... 10 out of 12 shots in a 2 inch bull. This is benched at 25yds.! So what's the beef...10 holes in a 2 in. bull isn't bad for a blind man with palsey...right? Well, the good groups are only with some commercial cast I bought. GAAAAHH! The box is marked ALMAX 255gr. SWC and these things are so hard a file won't leave a mark. ( I exaggerate..... only slightly) Looks like I need to "firm" my lead up a bit. Hate the idea of actually buying commercial cast boolits. I did manage to get the groups down to 3 inches with my boolits with varying loads but now I know what the Ruger actually can do so it's frustrating. Even more so looking at the 15lbs. of boolits I've got lubed and ready to load. Thought about cleaning these off with mineral spirits and oven treating them then re-lube and give 'em another go. Any other options besides melting them back down and adding some linotype or other hardener to the mix? Could toss some of them commercial cast goobers in the pot!! :) Audie...the Oldfart...

[gray wolf]

Slow down,
You say you reamed the cylinders, to what size ? and why ?
What's your bore slug at,
any leading ?
What size are the commercial bullets ?
what size did you size to ?
I think the guy's are going to ask a lot of questions and they will come up with the answer.
If the pistol shoots with the commercial bullets you can make it shoot with yours.
What made you think all was good ? so that you made up so many bullets without testing.
I am going to say at this point it is not your lead mix, You are shooting rather soft loads ( low Vel. ). If you had the Vel. cranked up I would think a hard bullet would help.

[462]

The following is not meant to critisize oldfart1956. Instead, his experience points out an often overlooked but important lesson for those new to boolit casting: Cast and lube only enough boolits to conduct the intended experiment.

Qualifier: It's not that I've never made the same mistake.

[Four-Sixty]

I wonder if you should not also re-measure some of your sized/lubed bullets. Are they growing still? Do you find any variance, or are they consistent?

[oldfart1956]

Slow down,
You say you reamed the cylinders, to what size ? and why ?
What's your bore slug at,
any leading ?
What size are the commercial bullets ?
what size did you size to ?
I think the guy's are going to ask a lot of questions and they will come up with the answer.
If the pistol shoots with the commercial bullets you can make it shoot with yours.
What made you think all was good ? so that you made up so many bullets without testing.
I am going to say at this point it is not your lead mix, You are shooting rather soft loads ( low Vel. ). If you had the Vel. cranked up I would think a hard bullet would help. Cyl's. were reamed to .452. Originally .450/451. Bore slugs at .451/.4515. NO leading. Matter of fact I haven't had any leading in any of my loads for 45/70, .38 spec. or .45 Colt. Commercial cast mic. 452. After sizing my cast mic. at .452. Low velocity loads? I went from starting loads to nearly max loads. Not "Ruger Only" loads. Highest velocity so far on the chrono is 1065 f.p.s. lowest is 685. Seating and crimping in seperate operations so I'm not swaging the boolits. Pulled and re-measured them to check. Some of the wheel-weights I smelted in this mix (probably half of the 300lbs.) were over 20yrs. old and may be softer than todays. Haven't checked the bhn of the lead. Same sized boolits, same powders, same primers, same cases, same day shooting. The hard commercial boolits shot better, with 2 different shooters. I just think the alloy is a smidge soft. And yeah....should'a shot more and cast less. :) HAW!HAW!HAW! Thanks to all. Audie...the Oldfart..

[waksupi]

Audie, sounds like a size problem. Try going up .001.

[fecmech]

I will qualify this by saying my .45 colt experience is zip but maybe the harder bullets are telling you what the gun likes. My Lipseys .45 convertible has very shallow rifling, to my eye maybe even less than in my .45 auto barrel. Maybe the harder bullet is what it needs although mine shoots fine with acp brass in the 800 fps range with acww and 200 gr SWC's.

[bigboredad]

I've had a similiar experience with my Ruger .45 and found out it was my lube not my alloy. you may want to give a different lube a try. It made a difference for me but ymmv

[runfiverun]

i think you have too much lube on your boolits.
man. olive oil,alox,b-wax,parrafin,and carnuba.
mix them all together in one lube and use in the groove.

i'd either tumble lube or fill the lube groove, both is a bit much.
you need the lead to grip the rifling not float down the bbl on a wet gasket.

[44man]

I guess I will just watch how this goes!

[Harter66]

My 76' RBH in 45 Colts likes that 452-252 w/my cheapo wad and 9gr of Unique in Win cases and CCI LGP primers. Boolits cast from 50-50 WW-1-20. Lube is a tweeked Darrs lube in the grooves only. Groups are 3" at 50td as I intended to whack a hog w/that load. My cyl are .454 w/.452 bore. 1 more bit the boolits were water dropped .

[btroj]

Your alloy is plenty hard. You might try water dropping a few to see of that helps.

Did you verify that the throats are .452? Shove a slug thru and measure it.

Try just one lube, too much lube can be a bad thing.

Change just one thing at a time, that way you know what made a difference.

I would melt down what you lubed. This is a good example of why I cast and lube a few hundred at most with a new gum / bullet combo. Why cast, size, and lubes hundreds or thousands of bullets until you know what works.

This is a great learning experience for you. Cherish it!

[williamwaco]

I never owned a .45 Colt but I have cast and loaded cast bullets in almost every handgun caliber short of the modern hand howitzers.

Your results correspond exactly to my experience with undersized bullets.


.

[jblee10]

I do not think that seating and crimping a soft bullet in two separate steps will make any difference in the soft bullet being swagged down in size as it is seated. Try seating a soft bullet without crimping, and the same with a hard one. Pull them and measure and note the difference. I'd be curious to see if there is a notable difference in size. Heck, you may be able to just measure the outside of the case and see.

[oldfart1956]

Well now ya'll have me thinking. The reason for the double lube was I lubed before sizing (as reccommended by Lee) which of course removes the lube from the boolit bands where it actually contacts the bore. Hence the need for the re-lube. I suppose I could just Recluse lube/size/Recluse lube and skip the pan lube. Hmmm..? I have shoved boolits thru the reamed chambers and all are running .452 after passing thru. Just requireing a good push with a dowel to pass the throats. The boolits, as cast from the Lee mold (90356) measure .454+ and I actually did try some un-sized but concerns of possible pressure due to the .452 throats and .451 bore concerned me hence the .452 sizing die. They actually chambered easilly. Rugers seem to have generous cylinders if not throats. I also tried just neck sizing, with no apparant benifit other than the ca'tridges don't rattle around in the chambers as much. I also tried not resizing at all but had a complete lack of neck tension. Oddly enough someone mentioned 9gr. of Unique which was the best grouping load so far, with the hard commercial boolits of course. The smallest group with the home-cast (3in.) was also with the heavier loads. The downside of the heavy loads is the recoil is....robust. I'd love to get a load around 800/850f.p.s. that groups well for plinking. Perhaps a lighter boolit? Just for giggles I sized some Ruger Old Army conicals (.457) down to .452, which of course almost eliminates the lube grooves and tried them. Less recoil but I'm sure this will lead to leading due to the near lack of lube grooves. Now just for the record I am a lousy shot with either handgun or rifle. I switched to a smoothbore muzzleloader about 20yrs. ago with no rear sight and hardly a front sight and rarely shoot ca'tridge guns. It's just that the .45 Colt is such a "must have" classic. Please keep the suggestions coming, I'll be back tommorrow. Audie....

[Thumbcocker]

I have loaded for two .45 BH's and they are the most cussed critters I ever fought with. For salt in the wound they are both accurate with the acp cylinders. Had both reamed by cylinder smith etc. RCBS colt boolit wont shoot for beans in them. Finally NOE Keith sized .454 over 6.5 of red dot and 9.0 of Herco made pretty little cluster from both. Wife calls me stubborn. I prefer persistent. Good luck.

[MT Gianni]

Document any size difference between the commercial cast and your own. Clean the bbl & shoot 10 rds of your lube before you mess with trying for a group. You need to lube purge from the different bullets you have used.
See how slow you can shoot the commercial bullets and get good groups. Do they only work well when shot @ 9 gr or do they group Ok with less?
The gun shoots, try 6.0-7.0 Gr Red Dot with your cast. I am assuming that you have no base voids as you shoot your own cast in other calibers?

[44man]

I can give a few suggestions. Harden the boolits. Dump your lube and go to Felix. I force it into the grooves with my fingers or pan lube before using the Lee die to remove excess. My boolits are messy.
Next, dump the semi wad cutter and get a RNFP, truncated cone or LBT style WLN or WFN. The Lee 452-255-RF is a better boolit.
Since I hunt with mine I like the C452-300-RF but it does not take kindly to slow speed, it needs a little over 1160 fps.
Use the slowest powder for the velocity you want but Unique should work.
Use a standard primer. Get even case tension with proper dies, I use Hornady. Crimp just enough, don't overdo it. ( The dies you use can destroy accuracy FAST!)
Sizing over throats is overblown as is a perfect fit. Under throat size can shoot without slumping boolits as long as they are groove size. It is fine to go a little over groove as long as you don't go over throat. .452" is where I would stop in your gun. Not a pressure issue, just don't use the throats for size dies.
The .45 Colt is easy to work, no different then any other caliber as long as you got rid of under size throats. You are fine right now.
I have the old Vaquero and it did this at 50 yards with the Lyman 452651. I have shot 1" groups at 75 yards with the Lyman, LBT 335 gr and the Lee 300 gr. All from Creedmore off the side of my leg. The Lee 255 will bust cans all day at 50 with 7 gr of Unique.
Then I want to show what an under size boolit can do, .430 boolit with a .430" groove and .4324" throat at 200 yards. The 50 yard group was the great RD 265 gr at .432". This boolit does 1-1/4" at 100 yards. All with WD, WW metal.
I think you are defeating yourself at the loading bench.
I am not some fantastic shot either. I just dumped the old ways, learned to load and did away with the "bump up to obturate junk". I learned what nose shape, powders, gas checks, case tension and primers do.
Throw out the books and just sit and stare at your loads, the secret is at your bench, not your gun. Use imagination and picture what the boolit is doing when shot.

[1bluehorse]

Check the cylinder timing, make sure it's lining up with the bore...I've only had one Ruger with this problem.
44Man, I'd sure like to sit down for a day with you...thinking outside the box, I like it..

P.S. Also agree with the above post about the bullet choice. I've not had very good luck with the Lee SWC bullet either...

[stocker]

If the actual cylinder chambers are somewhat large it is easy to get a misalignment of the SWC boolit before it passes through the cylinder throats. This can indeed casue leading and poor accuracy. As 44man suggested a different bullet shape can make a difference and RNFN may solve the problem.

[454PB]

I'm in the "change lube" camp.

I shoot that same boolit in my BH, SBH, and three .454 Casulls and it does just fine.

[Wayne Smith]

Interesting article in Handloader/Rifle a couple of months ago on the .45 Colt. Seems all chambers are overly large, the upshot of the article is that you need a boolit that has a full size front band ahead of the case to make sure the cartridge is lined up in the chamber correctly. Other bullet styles tend to enter the forcing cone pointing up, bounce off, and enter the bore crooked. Not good for accuracy. The article even had a picture of a sectioned .45 Colt cylinder showing exactly what was happening.

I don't know the boolit you are using, I don't shoot the .45 Colt.

[44man]

Check the cylinder timing, make sure it's lining up with the bore...I've only had one Ruger with this problem.
44Man, I'd sure like to sit down for a day with you...thinking outside the box, I like it..

P.S. Also agree with the above post about the bullet choice. I've not had very good luck with the Lee SWC bullet either...
How great it would be to get together.

[oldfart1956]

Fellers sorry for being so tardy on the replies but working nights in the bakery and days under my truck. (dang Ford...) Anyways, I'll start by paying more attention at the bench, then carry the cleaning kit along and do a little cleaning between loads. We were a bit short on time the day we shot due to an incoming storm and were shooting...not rapidly...but not dawdling either. As admonished....I need to slow down a bit but time is always at such a premium. I've done some careful measuring of both the home cast and commercial swc boolits and other than the commercial being a whisker longer (.692 vs .685) and a bevel base they are very close. Dia. both are .452. As advised I'm gonna throttle back the commercial cast just to see what happens. I read the advice about water-dropping but wonder if it will matter after running it thru the sizing die. Does water-dropping form more of a hard surface which would be stripped off when sizing from .454+ down to .452?? Or is the hardness throughout the boolit. Mebbe I better go re-read Fryxells book again?? ;) I downloaded it in case it ever dissapears like Iowegans books. More coming in a post following. Audie...

[oldfart1956]

Wasn't sure if there was a word limit on posts so decided to just continue on another. Anyways, I'm considering the RNF 250/255 boolit design as advised. I went with the .252 SWC as it seems to be such a popular choice, has a long bearing surface and works dandy for paper-punching and for hunting due to the large flat nose. I assume the RNF would work also but was wondering how much I give up in bearing surface. Lee doesn't give a lot of detail measurements on their site. Logic would dictate a longer bearing surface would be better and one reason I think the heavier boolits (300gr.+) work so well in the larger bore handguns. I could be full'a carp to. But I'd like to stay in the 250/255gr. area if possible. Next round of questions....hardening a sample run of lead........Audie.

[oldfart1956]

IF....I was to decide to run mebbe a 5lb. run of wheel-weight lead and try to harden it up a bit....just a bit!....what's the easy way? I've heard of adding hard shot and I have bags of hard shot laying around in sizes I don't use much. However, the last time I tried adding shot to melted pure lead it instantly turned to mush....like oatmeal. I had to dig it out of the pot! Could not get that stuff to turn liquid! I do have tin and for such a small run wouldn't hesitate to use some of it but how much in a 5lb. test run? I realize tin doesn't harden much but I'm not trying to turn this WW lead into tungston carbide..just raise the bhn a little. Water dropping would do that...but will I lose that on sizing? I do have 8lbs. of the commercial cast boolits left! Just sayin'! I wouldn't hesitate to toss a measured amount of them into a 5lb. test run. Not sure how to get around the double-lube thing. I suppose I could ram them thru the sizing die nekkid but I'd likely lead it up or rip the press off the bench. Well, I'm off to re-read Fryxells book and re-read some of the waterdropping tips here. Again, thanks to all for their patience and help. Audie...the Oldfart..

[fecmech]

You will probably get some argument from others on the board but here is my take and experience. I size immediately after water dropping (the same day) which does 2 things. It is much easier to size them as the bullets are not fully hard yet (that is the primary reason) and the sized areas are are going to be still hardening after you size them as they age. If you don't believe it try slugging a barrel with a sized slug on the day it was cast and then try it again 2 weeks later with another bullet from that batch. You will notice a difference!

[mdi]

Anybody mention "thread choke"? I understand it is common in Ruger single actions...

[fredj338]

Maybe the lube, maybe. My RBHSS w/ cyl throates reamed to 0.451" will group 0.452" cast bullets well under 2" @ 25yds w/ just about any alloy from 25-1 to ww. I haven't tried water dropped, no need, they sare shooting great w/ minimal leading as is. I normally use Unique or 2400 for higher vel loads. I am shooting the RCBS 270grSA from 900-1100fps, about all the vel I want in a light wt RBH. It's always possible your bbl just doesn't like anything but a hard alloy, but try a harder commercial lube & see.

[paul h]

Anybody mention "thread choke"? I understand it is common in Ruger single actions...

Ding ding ding, I think we have a winner!

I'll try and keep it brief but the most frustrating handgun I ever had is an old model blackhawk 357. I tried alot of different cast bullets and powders and had trouble grouping 5" at 25 yds, yet I could shot 1 1/2" groups out of my super blackhawk.

Finally I pushed a soft bullet down the muzzle and detected the dreaded thread choke where the barrel threads into the frame. Here's an excellent article that goes into detail of the problem and solutions. http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/

On my 357 I got a .358" reamer, chucked the barrel in the lathe and taylor throated it. Bingo, now it shoots.

If you have thread choke, and I highly suspect you do, you can try every bullet mold, lube, and powder combination under the sun and the gun still won't shoot. Slug your barrel, if it's choked, fix it before wasting any more time and further frustrating yourself.

[1_Ogre]

I've been loading for a few years now but just got my first 45 Colt. It's a Ruger Super Blackhawk built on the 357 frame, not the 44 Mag frame. I am wanting to load for the Lyman 452651 325gr boolit. Anyone out there with any load info for this? Nothing in the load books except for the Thompson Contender or the 454 Casull. I was thinking about starting with 5gr of Unique and going from there. Anyone out there with any experience with the Lyman 452651 in the 45 Colt?

[1_Ogre]

Well folks after having such steller results getting my older brother to try cast boolits we ran some of my loads thru my .45 Colt Blackhawk with the new Nikon scope this weekend and it sucked. Cylinders have been reamed, mold is a Lee .452 SWC 252gr. panlubed in 50/50 beeswax&olive oil then sized then tumble lubed in Recluses excellent 45/45/10. New sized and trimmed Starline brass, loads ranging from starting loads to well below "Ruger Only" loads. Using Unique, Universal Clays and Trailboss powders. The lead is wheel-weights and a bit of tin. Groups are running from "can't keep it on a 8X10 sheet of paper" to.....get this... 10 out of 12 shots in a 2 inch bull. This is benched at 25yds.! So what's the beef...10 holes in a 2 in. bull isn't bad for a blind man with palsey...right? Well, the good groups are only with some commercial cast I bought. GAAAAHH! The box is marked ALMAX 255gr. SWC and these things are so hard a file won't leave a mark. ( I exaggerate..... only slightly) Looks like I need to "firm" my lead up a bit. Hate the idea of actually buying commercial cast boolits. I did manage to get the groups down to 3 inches with my boolits with varying loads but now I know what the Ruger actually can do so it's frustrating. Even more so looking at the 15lbs. of boolits I've got lubed and ready to load. Thought about cleaning these off with mineral spirits and oven treating them then re-lube and give 'em another go. Any other options besides melting them back down and adding some linotype or other hardener to the mix? Could toss some of them commercial cast goobers in the pot!! :) Audie...the Oldfart...

I do a lot of casting and if I ever need to up the BHN of my lead mix I add Linotype to it. It's easy to get and it doesn't take much to "TIGHTEN" your mix. I start with 1lb of Linotype to 5lb of lead and it does make a difference but don't make your BHN to high or the boolits will get brittle and make a real mess on impact.

[1_Ogre]

i think you have too much lube on your boolits.
man. olive oil,alox,b-wax,parrafin,and carnuba.
mix them all together in one lube and use in the groove.

i'd either tumble lube or fill the lube groove, both is a bit much.
you need the lead to grip the rifling not float down the bbl on a wet gasket.

Do you have experience with the 45 Colt? I am trying to get a load up for the Lyman 452651 325gr boolit. Was thinking about starting with about 5-5.5gr of Unique and going from there. Can't find any info on the 452651 in the Colt 45 anywhere.

[Cadillo]

I can give a few suggestions. Harden the boolits. Dump your lube and go to Felix. I force it into the grooves with my fingers or pan lube before using the Lee die to remove excess. My boolits are messy.
Next, dump the semi wad cutter and get a RNFP, truncated cone or LBT style WLN or WFN. The Lee 452-255-RF is a better boolit.
Since I hunt with mine I like the C452-300-RF but it does not take kindly to slow speed, it needs a little over 1160 fps.
Use the slowest powder for the velocity you want but Unique should work.
Use a standard primer. Get even case tension with proper dies, I use Hornady. Crimp just enough, don't overdo it. ( The dies you use can destroy accuracy FAST!)
Sizing over throats is overblown as is a perfect fit. Under throat size can shoot without slumping boolits as long as they are groove size. It is fine to go a little over groove as long as you don't go over throat. .452" is where I would stop in your gun. Not a pressure issue, just don't use the throats for size dies.
The .45 Colt is easy to work, no different then any other caliber as long as you got rid of under size throats. You are fine right now.
I have the old Vaquero and it did this at 50 yards with the Lyman 452651. I have shot 1" groups at 75 yards with the Lyman, LBT 335 gr and the Lee 300 gr. All from Creedmore off the side of my leg. The Lee 255 will bust cans all day at 50 with 7 gr of Unique.
Then I want to show what an under size boolit can do, .430 boolit with a .430" groove and .4324" throat at 200 yards. The 50 yard group was the great RD 265 gr at .432". This boolit does 1-1/4" at 100 yards. All with WD, WW metal.
I think you are defeating yourself at the loading bench.
I am not some fantastic shot either. I just dumped the old ways, learned to load and did away with the "bump up to obturate junk". I learned what nose shape, powders, gas checks, case tension and primers do.
Throw out the books and just sit and stare at your loads, the secret is at your bench, not your gun. Use imagination and picture what the boolit is doing when shot.

I've hit a roadblock with this new to me term "Slumping" with regard to boolits!

A little bit of help please?

[Horace]

As a test remove the lube from the factory cast and apply your lube with the sizer and without using the sizer.

Horace

[44man]

I've hit a roadblock with this new to me term "Slumping" with regard to boolits!

A little bit of help please?
Boolits too soft will slump. the boolit wants to stay in place from inertia and the base tries to catch up with the nose, changing the original shape. A semi wad cutter can change to a WFN and a nose can slump off center depending on starting shape.
GG's and crimp grooves can be smashed to nothing before the boolit leaves and enters the barrel.
If you stuck a soft boolit in a tube, put a snug punch on it and smacked it with a big hammer, you will see slump.
Maybe think "setback."

[MT Gianni]

Ding ding ding, I think we have a winner!

I'll try and keep it brief but the most frustrating handgun I ever had is an old model blackhawk 357. I tried alot of different cast bullets and powders and had trouble grouping 5" at 25 yds, yet I could shot 1 1/2" groups out of my super blackhawk.

Finally I pushed a soft bullet down the muzzle and detected the dreaded thread choke where the barrel threads into the frame. Here's an excellent article that goes into detail of the problem and solutions. http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/

On my 357 I got a .358" reamer, chucked the barrel in the lathe and taylor throated it. Bingo, now it shoots.

If you have thread choke, and I highly suspect you do, you can try every bullet mold, lube, and powder combination under the sun and the gun still won't shoot. Slug your barrel, if it's choked, fix it before wasting any more time and further frustrating yourself.

The original post says it shoots 10 shots in 2" with store bought cast. The problem is with his bullets and lube.

[oldfart1956]

Folks I sure am glad to see this post again. I'm still working on it!! :) Now, mind ye, I've got groups down to 1 1/2 inches at 25yds. and for me that's incredible. But...it's still with the commercial cast boolits. Now I don't have a problem buying boolits but I'm determined to figger out how to make my cast boolits shoot that well. They's a new 255gr. mold coming this week...round nose flat point as reccomended. I've made a batch of Saeco (sp.?) lube and that's working real well as far as pan lubeing. Haven't got to shoot'em yet. Also, made up a batch of Fryxells moly-lube. Jimminycrickets....what a mess! I hadda heckuva time gittin' that stuff to melt and incorporate into something pan-lubeable. I've never seen anything stick like that! Still haven't got it out of the slow-cooker. Stuff dried awful tacky so dropped in just a leetle parafine to stiffen it up and it's lubing right smart and eventually semi-dries. Just today loaded up with Unique and Universal Clays.....5 rounds of each in loads from 850fps. to 1000fps. according to the books. Just out'a curiousity I melted a 5lb. batch of wheel-weights and added 2% tin and 2 oz. of hardened shot (for the antimony) and they sure do cast purty. Excellent fillout and sharp bands. Then I oven-heat-treated half of them after sizing. Saved the other half for a control group. Pan lubed half of them with the Saeco and the other half with the Fryxells moly-lube. I'll probably Recluse some of the remainder after I see how these work. So right now I've got plenty of work to do as soon as time permits. Might shoot some tommorrow and then again on Saturday. I admit....I kind'a got sidetracked. See this feller had a Ruger Blackhawk for sale...357 Mag...and it's a 3 screw. (1970) Never been modified...$400. GAAAK. More molds....more brass....another Lee trimmer. It just never ends. Audie...the Oldfart...

[1_Ogre]

Folks I sure am glad to see this post again. I'm still working on it!! :) Now, mind ye, I've got groups down to 1 1/2 inches at 25yds. and for me that's incredible. But...it's still with the commercial cast boolits. Now I don't have a problem buying boolits but I'm determined to figger out how to make my cast boolits shoot that well. They's a new 255gr. mold coming this week...round nose flat point as reccomended. I've made a batch of Saeco (sp.?) lube and that's working real well as far as pan lubeing. Haven't got to shoot'em yet. Also, made up a batch of Fryxells moly-lube. Jimminycrickets....what a mess! I hadda heckuva time gittin' that stuff to melt and incorporate into something pan-lubeable. I've never seen anything stick like that! Still haven't got it out of the slow-cooker. Stuff dried awful tacky so dropped in just a leetle parafine to stiffen it up and it's lubing right smart and eventually semi-dries. Just today loaded up with Unique and Universal Clays.....5 rounds of each in loads from 850fps. to 1000fps. according to the books. Just out'a curiousity I melted a 5lb. batch of wheel-weights and added 2% tin and 2 oz. of hardened shot (for the antimony) and they sure do cast purty. Excellent fillout and sharp bands. Then I oven-heat-treated half of them after sizing. Saved the other half for a control group. Pan lubed half of them with the Saeco and the other half with the Fryxells moly-lube. I'll probably Recluse some of the remainder after I see how these work. So right now I've got plenty of work to do as soon as time permits. Might shoot some tommorrow and then again on Saturday. I admit....I kind'a got sidetracked. See this feller had a Ruger Blackhawk for sale...357 Mag...and it's a 3 screw. (1970) Never been modified...$400. GAAAK. More molds....more brass....another Lee trimmer. It just never ends. Audie...the Oldfart...

I read your previous thread and you mentioned the Lyman 452651 in your 45 Colt. I have the mold and am inquiring as to your load you use. I have the Ruger Super Black Hawk with the 357 frame, not the 44 Mag frame. Like the bullet, but am not sure about which powder to use and how much. Looking for information and assistance.
Thanks, Lead47

[Char-Gar]

I just may be out of the loop, but I have never heard of beeswax and olive oil. I would think a 50-50 mix would just be some kind of goo. Then to tumble lube it? That does not sound like a winning combination to me.

[geargnasher]

The original post says it shoots 10 shots in 2" with store bought cast. The problem is with his bullets and lube.

:wink:

Gear

[oldfart1956]

I just may be out of the loop, but I have never heard of beeswax and olive oil. I would think a 50-50 mix would just be some kind of goo. Then to tumble lube it? That does not sound like a winning combination to me.

Char the reason for the double-lube is I lube before sizing as reccommended by Lee... then after as going thru the sizer removes the lube from the surface that's actually going to be beaing the brunt of the load. Now as to the 50/50 beeswax&olive oil lube it's been used since before rifles were rifled. Traditional muzzleloaders, (I'm one! :) ) have been using this stuff since pre-colonial times. We lube patches, conicals, waterproof footgear and use it on guns. (wood&metal) It's the WD40 of old. As a pan lube it has a lot of advantages. Mixed properly it hardens fast and boolits pop out with a perfect amount of lube in the grooves. Ingredients are easy to come by and economical. I get a lb. of beeswax for $2 and 16oz. of olive oil for $3 and it makes a lot of lube. I can vary the lube by adding more wax to make it harder (for summer use) or add oil to soften it up for cold weather. Heck it even makes a great lip balm/chapped hands ointment. I've used it in the .38 special, 45/70 and the .45 colt and I'm serious I've never...ever had leading issues. And I've run some of the loads to 1150+ fps. My issue is accuracy and as some have advised this might not be the lube for that. I do, however, put the majority of the blame on me...not the loads. Try it sometime Char! It's easy to make, cheap and has a dozen other uses. Audie...the Oldfart..

[oldfart1956]

As a test remove the lube from the factory cast and apply your lube with the sizer and without using the sizer.

Horace My friend I don't know why this never occured to me. I'm gonna do that today. Simple and direct and it'll definatly tell me if it's either the lube or the boolits. Many thanks! Audie...the Oldfart...

[Wally]

I have loaded for two .45 BH's and they are the most cussed critters I ever fought with. For salt in the wound they are both accurate with the acp cylinders. Had both reamed by cylinder smith etc. RCBS colt boolit wont shoot for beans in them. Finally NOE Keith sized .454 over 6.5 of red dot and 9.0 of Herco made pretty little cluster from both. Wife calls me stubborn. I prefer persistent. Good luck.

Same here with my Ruger BHK .45 Colt trying many cast bullets & loads---a Lee 252 SWC works well as does a vintage Lee 240 WC..all the RCBS cast bullets were unacceptably accurate. Even the 454190 just won't shoot accurately for me (ie I cannot consistently hit a 12" plate at 25 yards)... I will soon be trying out a 452424...hopefully it will work well.

[44man]

I just may be out of the loop, but I have never heard of beeswax and olive oil. I would think a 50-50 mix would just be some kind of goo. Then to tumble lube it? That does not sound like a winning combination to me.
It does make a decent lube.
But I have to wonder if it is too slippery for smokeless? I have always wanted a little "sticky" so I would put some lanolin in it. That is something I am up in the air with so some feedback from you fellas would be nice.
Then will it "bleed" oil? Maybe some soap to keep it all together. Yeah, a form of Felix in the end. :mrgreen:
The worst thing I ever fooled with was anything with moly. I bought some BPCR lube like that once and it was an expensive disaster. I have tried it with smokeless too and sometimes it builds in the bore and gets ironed in until it is almost the nastiest thing ever to remove.
I once tried a mix with lithium grease. I needed to melt the stainless pan before the stuff would melt! :roll: Stinks bad too.

[Char-Gar]

As we know, black power and smokless powder are very different critters when it comes to bullet lube. They don't serve the same functions and thereby require a different approach. In this case, bullet lube is not bullet lube.

I have been using the same home made bullet lube for 50 years and it was popular back in the day. It was given as "beeswax with enough Vaseline to soften it for use in a lubricator sizer". That comes out to be "about", 65/35 (wax to Vaseline), but the exact porportions are not critical. It is plenty hard enough to stay put and not near hard enough to require a heater. It works just fine in hot dry places, but I have never used it in very cold places, so I can't speak to that.

This lube will not work for black powder due to the Vaseline. I can see how olive oil, would work but the 50-50 portions seem a mite thin the me. As a patch lube, you would want it that thin, but I should thing it might be a little soft/gooey for sticking in lube grooves.

Glen Fryxell swears by a 50/50 (beeswax to moly grease) lube for handgun bullets. If Glen says it is good stuff, I will take him at his word. I tried to mix up a batch of it once, but the moly grease broke the glass container in the microwave, and I had a real mess to clean up.

It would appear that moly grease requires much higher heat to melt than beeswax or Vaseline which I have heated many hundreds of times in a microwave over with no problems. Glen told me that he even had Pyrex break in the microwave with his mix of stuff.

I keep what is left of the on the lathe bench and put a dab on the tailstock center when turning metal. Seems to work fine in that chore.

I do not tumble lube anything, so I can't speak to any of the issues related to that practice. All I can say about the issue at hand, is the approach of the original poster is somewhat strange to me, and does not give me a warm feeling. It does not seem to be doing a good job for him.

I have had nothing but good luck with Felix lube for both hanguns and rifle loads. I don't use it often because my stuff works just fine for 95% of my use, and Felix is a bear to mix, so I use my stash sparingly.

I am a rather simple sort and if a handgun bullet will stay in the X-Ring of a 50 yard pistol target at 50 yards, that is all I ask. With that as an expectation, there are many good lubes out there in the bullet casting and shooting world. When you start trying to bench rest shoot pistols at 100 yards and beyond to turn in itty bitty groups, my experience (and caring) starts to roll snake eyes and I back away from the discussion.

[44man]

I have E4 micro fine powdered moly, moly grease, dry spray moly and graphite.
Sometimes it is not worth the trouble trying to improve a good lube.
Too much of those fancy, expensive lubes for sale are just money makers for someone with a better idea that doesn't work.
Even a lot of those coatings for jacketed bullets have gone away.
Fillers that lube the bore never panned out. I had free samples and in every case, accuracy flew the coop.
Simple in most cases will do it all.

[runfiverun]

a lot of greases have a drop point of 300 up to over 500-f depending which one you choose.
there's more than one way to get a grease to mix in with a wax.
when i am using an aluminum stearate to thicken a grease mix i do it cold.
i then have to melt my wax base and mix it into the thickened grease base.
then re-heat the entire mix to over 225-f and do a final blending.

if using a lithium stearate and something like a wheel bearing grease the Li stearate needs temps over 450-f to make the grease base re-gel.
however the grease needs over 500-f to drop out and become liquid.
mixing a lower drop point grease or it's base will lower the drop point of the mix.
once they have been regelled your base wax can be introduced while in the cooling stage,and blended till cooled.
the made wax will remelt at a temperature as low as the melting point of the base wax.

when i mix in moly and try to do it in a full liquid wax the moly will drop through the wax and settle on the bottom.
my way around this is to heat the wax untill is it not melted but more the consistency of peanut butter then add the moly grease and blend till it cools and thickens.
adding 50% grease to b-wax is too much.
unless you control the base oils in the grease through thickening or adding much less grease. [35% is really the top end]
adding other waxes such as carnuba won't help the matter.
but a micro-paraffin wax will work well here, as the oils in the grease will plasticize the parrafinic wax,and will also be controlled by the wax at the same time.

[MtGun44]

Swithc to a real lube like NRA 50-50, Javelina (same thing), LBT soft blue, etc. Up the size to throat diam
and then try +.001. Some need oversized.

Bill

[geargnasher]

To the OP: I still can't figger out if you were tumble-lubing or filling the grooves with the beeswax/olive oil.

Gear

[oldfart1956]

To the OP: I still can't figger out if you were tumble-lubing or filling the grooves with the beeswax/olive oil.

Gear Gear, I've done it both ways. Pan lubed with 50/50 beeswax olive oil then sized...then Reclused. And the other way around...Reclused...sized and then pan lubed. I've also just Reclused...sized and then re-Reclused. The second lubeing is to replaced the lube cleared off the boolit from going thru the sizer. And I tried sizing un-lubed and then lubeing. (either pan or Recluse....not both) As long as the boolit is close to .452 it's not too bad going thru the sizer (Lee push thru) but sometimes ya get one a smidgion fat (.454) an it takes a bit more grunt. I tried, as mentioned here, tumbleing in a dab of dishwashing liq. and then sizing and that worked puddy good. Afterwards I rinsed, dried and lubed. Mebbe I'm way overthinking the second lube being needed. Once the boolit hits the forcing cone and then the lands it probably doesn't matter. But in a post above I read where Gray Wolf is having problems with leading in the throats of the cylinder and I wonder. (I believe they have already solved his issue) I hope this answers the question Gear. Audie...the Oldfart

[oldfart1956]

Since the previous post brought the topic back up I thought I'd add a bit more before heading to work. Tues. morning went out and tried the new Saeco lube and Moly lube using lead with a bit of hard shot added to the mix. I'll say the Moly lube did best...had 4 holes touching with one flyer. (I'm only loading 5 rounds to train myself for the old model Ruger recently purchased) The Saeco was better than my previous lubes but not by a wide margin. Group size diminished as powder levels increased but I reach my level of tolerance at approx. 950 fps. and start flinching. I mean closing my eyes and ripping the trigger flinching. (using muffs and earplugs) As much as I like the results of the Moly lube...this stuff sucks to work with. Temps have to be about the flash-point of steel to melt, it sticks to everything, stinks and you wouldn't dare run this stuff thru a Lee sizer. (size...then lube!) Best group to date for the home-cast boolits....1 1/2 inches not counting the flyer which opened the group to 2 inches. I'm going to try the commercial cast with my 4 different lube methods after cleaning off the factory lube. Also want to try the hardened lead with all 4 lubes. (NOT all at the same time...:) ) Leaving this weekend for a flatland griz hunt with the yankees in northwest Pa. as they seem to be over-run with them so will report back when I have time to cast and test. Again, thanks to all for the support and ideas! Audie...the Oldfart..

[High Desert Hunter]

I am playing the same game, only it is leading that is my nemisis, and the 454 is the cartridge. I have 4 45 Colt revolvers, all of them will turn in 1 1/2" accuracy at 25 yards with the same load, a 289gr SWC I cast from a Miha mold over 8.5grs of Unique in Starline cases lit by Winchester Lg Pistol Primers. In the 454, the speed is ditching my lube before it reaches the muzzle. Back when I had my other 454, I shot bullets lubed with commercial lube from the Bullshop, with the 45, i was able to get by with my own, now that I am back with the 454, I am seeing the need for a better lube. I just received an order of TAC #1, I am hoping it yields positive results. I have found in my 45 Colt Rugers, that a softer bullet works best, until I hit the 1100fps mark, then I water drop, commercial hard cast always left a goodly amount of lead in the barrel, and I would often recover bullets with most of the lube still in the grooves. My SS Bisley has .4505" throats, and it shoots my SWC into an inch if I am having a good day, I size them to .452. trial and error, it's all part of the fun.