Dacron...

[sundog]

Most dramatic results I've ever had. Been fooling around with a No 4 Mk I. This gun has shot okay before with Ly 314299 and 2400, but I've been experimenting and some of it was not too good. I've used Dacron before but never had performance stellar enough to use it all the time until this particular load -- 21.0 IMR 4227. I worked up and down a couple of grains and found this to be best, but not good..., until I put the filler in. At 50 yards a 4 or 5 inch pattern with flyers turned into a 2 inch group and ALL of the blow back on the case disappeared. Twenty grains and 22 grains opened the group back up. A little tweeking and this will be a fun load. Oh, one other thing. Boolits are seated out as far as my RCBS dies will allow but still do not engrave, so I will have to try a couple other things to seat the boolit out a little further to see if that will help. Just thought I'd pass it along. sundog

[beagle]

sundog...I've had really good luck in ignition improvements with dacron and 4227.

Seems like it's one powder that really benefits from it's use. Another side benefit is that it protects the base of the bullet on PB bullets.

Really works well in the .32-40 and .38-55 applications./beagle

[buck1]

Good info , thanks sundog!! ....Buck

[joeb33050]

I'm surprised at the improvements in accuracy with Dacron on IMR?4227. I've shot IMR4227 in 32/35, 32/40, 38/55, 30/30, 30/06, 45/70 and others. Never needed Dacron, never found that Dacron improved accuracy. I've always found that IMR4227 was not a bit sensitive to position. Maybe I'll have to re-visit the issue. BTW, yesterday, a tuft of Dacron on about 7 grains of Unique made the difference from 4" to 1.5" 100 yard groups with 30/30 and 308403. And I use Dacron over 15/Unique in 45/70-so I'm not an anti-Dacronite.
joe b.

[BruceB]

Yep, what Sundog said.

My most-dramatic improvement between dacron/no-dacron was also with a #4 Mk2, mine being a brand-new (un-issued) Fazakerley-built 1955 version. I was using 2400, and the addition of a tuft of dacron took the fifty-yard group from over 4" down to about 1.3"... no other changes at all.

Why the #4 in both these cases? Dunno. This was surely the most extreme change I've ever seen for just adding a bit of dacron, though.

[sundog]

Well, what was really funny about this was that I was at the bench loading a batch to shoot behind the barn and the grandson walks in and just stares at the big wad of what he referred to as cotton and said, "Grandpa, what are you doing????" [with some inflection] He's pretty familiar with the loading process and even load his own 30-30 with minimal supervision. He watched the whole process of shrinking group sizes and was kinda awestruck. Said he was gonna have to think about it for awhile. We had a short physics lesson on pressure, burn and such, and he understood, but he's still mulling it over. Pretty funny. I told him that he now has a reason to pay attention in his science classes and he kinda agreed -- but the jury is still out....

I've used dacron in lots of different loadings, most that didn't really help any including many 4227 loads. This was only slightly more than the blind pig routine since I already had an inkling, but this was definitely the most dramatic I've ever seen. I'm kinda like Bruce, why the No 4? One of my '06 accuracy loads is 21.0 4227 with a Ly 331291, NO filler, as it does not affect accuracy at all.

I still think what impressed me as much as anything is no pressure leak around the neck. I guess what I need to do is run some of these, with and without wad, across the chrono and see what's going on with SD/ES. Sure seems like pressure is higher and more consistent with the wad in this particular load. I loaded (with wad) and shot another five rounds last night just to be sure. Yup, neat little group, and zeroed good, to boot, AND, the boolits were not even scaled. sundog

[StarMetal]

Sundog

There's no doubt that Dacron increases the pressure so maybe your necks sealed better, thus not leaks.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Do you fellows think.......let's take a few loading scenarios. One we have a little charge of powder in a big 45-70 case. Rifle is horizontal at firing, no filler, so imagine if you will a very shallow layer of 4227 laying on the bottom of the horizontal case, definately the top of that layer below the centerline of the primer flash hole. Now imagine another one loaded this time with a Dacron filler and that little charge is held against the head end of the case. Do any of you think that there might be a difference in how these two instances, the powder burns? There has to be a difference in my opinion, even if it is said 4227 isn't sensitive to position. The one that's layering and laying on the bottom has to have it's whole top surface ignited a once. The one against the flash hole has to start burning from behind (give or take what the primer explosion does to the mass of powder.

Joe

[Scrounger]

[

There's no doubt that Dacron increases the pressure so maybe your necks sealed better, thus not leaks. ]
Sundog

Joe

[SIZE=2]Another grain or two of powder would have increased pressure too. Anything you do with Dacron can be achieved without it merely by increasing powder charge a bit.[/SIZE)

[StarMetal]

EXCEPT....how a filler positions and improves the accuracy in some cases and also protects the base of the bullet some and I believe the bore also.

Joe

[joeb33050]

[

[SIZE=2]Another grain or two of powder would have increased pressure too. Anything you do with Dacron can be achieved without it merely by increasing powder charge a bit.[/SIZE)

For accuracy, I find that increasing the SR4759 charge gives accuracy equal to a smaller charge with Dacron. But, not with Unique, accuracy in rifles almost always improves with Dacron, more powder and no Dacron doesn't give the same accuracy.
joe b.

[sundog]

Just got done with a little experiment with my 'match gun' for mil bolt matches - a CMP issued and still 'as issued' 03A3. Used my old load (prior to Felix putting me on to N120 a few years ago) of 21.0 IMR 21.0, only this time I put a wad in it. Boolit that this gun likes is the RCBS 30-180-SP and the ones I used were some straight run -- unscaled. Shooting was done at 50 yards (out behind the barn). 10-round group size was 1.489, which is not necessarily all that remarkable. BUT, I called 2 rounds high and they were. The other 8 rounds almost cut a circle out save a piece hanging on the south side (smaller than a caliber) and measured a respectable 0.853. That's a group size smaller than a U.S. Quarter. Not bad for an iron sighted old war horse! If I have time this evening I will duplicate enough of this load (necked sized brass and scaled boolits) to shoot the match tomorrow, then we'll really know how it does. If I can get the ammo made, I'll post the results. sundog

[Pop_No_Kick]

Just got done with a little experiment with my 'match gun' for mil bolt matches - a CMP issued and still 'as issued' 03A3. Used my old load (prior to Felix putting me on to N120 a few years ago) of 21.0 IMR 21.0, only this time I put a wad in it. Boolit that this gun likes is the RCBS 30-180-SP and the ones I used were some straight run -- unscaled. Shooting was done at 50 yards (out behind the barn). 10-round group size was 1.489, which is not necessarily all that remarkable. BUT, I called 2 rounds high and they were. The other 8 rounds almost cut a circle out save a piece hanging on the south side (smaller than a caliber) and measured a respectable 0.853. That's a group size smaller than a U.S. Quarter. Not bad for an iron sighted old war horse! If I have time this evening I will duplicate enough of this load (necked sized brass and scaled boolits) to shoot the match tomorrow, then we'll really know how it does. If I can get the ammo made, I'll post the results. sundog

Hmmm. Dacron,, Who knew..
I use a 21gr. IMR 4227 load. And this Polymer will tighten up
the groups?.. Well it's time to find out. I got 10# pot heating up for a cast. I will use only enough dacron (synth. Cott.)
To make a wad to be seated rite under the Boolit.

If i ain't got that right please post back..
Thanx's
Chuck

[sundog]

Chuck, addition of a filler may or may not improve things. Just have to experiment and see. Generally a 1 grain tuft is enough to fill the void. Do not pack it it down. So of the other fellers a really expert at this, maybe they'll chime in. sundog

[beagle]

I use enough dacron to fill the space between the powder and bullet base. I just push it in with the eraser of a new wooden pencil or dowel. No attempts are made to pack or put any pressure on it at all. My goal is to fill the space.

In every attempt at using dacron, ignition has improved and the SDs went down for the load. That didn't mean that it was more accurate.

I've also noticed that any carbon ring usually dimished on the case mouth and some loads that leaded with PB bullets didn't lead anymore.

Loads with some of the milsurp powders we were using that were too slow were improved by dacron.

Pressures increase some but not to the same point as with a powdered filler like grex or the equivelant.

I use a lot of dacron. Not in everything but when I start having residue rings at the case mouth and want to stay with that charge/powder, I use it.

PB bullets really are aided by it in my opinion. As I previously mentened, a PB in the .32-40 with 4227 and the classic 14.0 grains of 4227 was really helped by it.

Ringing....the jury is still out. It happens and we know that. Why exactly, we don't know. Many have claimed to have the solution to this phenomonen but I've sure read a lot about it and I'm not convinced. If you have a modern rifle in good condition and use dacron in a moderate manner I don't think the danger is too great.

As I said, I use a bunch of it in various loads./beagle

[Pop_No_Kick]

Chuck, addition of a filler may or may not improve things. Just have to experiment and see. Generally a 1 grain tuft is enough to fill the void. Do not pack it it down. So of the other fellers a really expert at this, maybe they'll chime in. sundog

Thanx's Sundog & Beagle, For the detail Instructions
on the use of the dacron.
I can see where this can help on position sensitive Pwdr's

The IMR 4227 will be the test in 'ought 6

I'll Post the range report I figure 50 Rnd's With and 50 WO
Dacron filler.

Thanx's for the Help.
Chuck

[Willbird]

Really Star what we need in the 45/70 for small charges is a BIG honking flash tube that fills up all the empty case...that would be easy enough to contrive on straight walled cases. then you would have an annular charge that would burn from front of the case to the back, might be very consistant, you could also change the outside contour of the flash tube to change the shape of the powder ring as it burns. Even a square, triangular, or hexagonal outside shape to the flash tube.



Bill

[45 2.1]

Really Star what we need in the 45/70 for small charges is a BIG honking flash tube that fills up all the empty case...that would be easy enough to contrive on straight walled cases. then you would have an annular charge that would burn from front of the case to the back, might be very consistant, you could also change the outside contour of the flash tube to change the shape of the powder ring as it burns. Even a square, triangular, or hexagonal outside shape to the flash tube.
Bill


There are people out there making reduced capacity cases for this. If you load the normal cases properly, you don't need those anyway.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm a fairly new "convert" to the use of dacron in various rifle calibers and loads. There have been improvements in some loads, and no improvements in others. Interestingly to me--there has to date been no reduction in accuracy with dacron in any load attempted previously or simultaneously without dacron.

The 45-70 I use (Ruger #1) seemingly thrives on full cases of powder--both The Holy Black (hereinafter "THB") and WC-860. No load I've tried--with or without dacron--has come close to the accuracy this rifle has displayed using these two fuels. The best loads to date used Lee 405 PB cast of half-and-half wheelweights and pure lead, with 55.0 grains of THB. With open irons, these went into 1.25" @ 100 yards, which is about as well as I can shoot such sights on my best day with a following wind.

Both loads are pretty leisurely, in terms of velocity--around 1100 FPS with THB, and barely breaking 1000 FPS with WC-860. Very comfortable to shoot, all-day loads for certain.....but such ballistics are kind of a waste of the rifle's potential, given its strength. My next stunt will be to try RE-7 powder in the sized cases to get some idea of its volume vis-a-vis its charge weight, hoping to get a 100% density load that provides enhanced velocity and good accuracy. As much as I enjoy target shooting--the end use of my load development is for the game fields, and a 400 grainer from a 45 caliber platform at 1000 FPS can almost be provided by my Bisley Blackhawk.

All this is a roundabout way of saying that dacron can cure a number of internal ballistic ailments, but it's not a free-standing one-size-fits-all panacea for all calibers or all rifles.

[sundog]

Back from the match (sse my last post in this thread). World class performance -- NOT. Came in third with a 289-2X. I had a total for four 8's, two on my group targets and 2 on my score targets, that were all called good but weren't. A little disappointing - less than expectation, but still 3rd place out of 19 shooters is not too bad. I think I'll be going back to my N120 load next mil bolt match. That load doesn't 'throw' rounds randomly out in the 8 ring! Might try dacron with it in the meantime just to do a little spearmintin. sundog


p.s. Grandson shot the Swede again with heathen bullets and faired quite nicely with a 278-5X. His last score target was a nifty 98-2X.

Take a kid shooting!

[sundog]

Well, more experimetation.... This time with the 03 Sporter (scoped 2-groover) at 50 yards with many times used neck sized FC brass and Rem 9 1/2 primers. Boolit is the RCBS 30-180-SP sized .310 and Hdy GCs. Powder is Accurate 2230-C from Powder Valley ($65 a jug if I remember rightly). All rounds loaded with dacron. 35 grains scattered around a bit. 33 went 3 in one hole, one a half inch tall (prolly me on my rickety ole bench), and pulled one right an inch. Tomorrow gonna reshoot that load and then 32 and 31 grains.

Hmmmm, ball powder and cast boolits.... Have I ever mentioned that I don't care much for most of the ball powders with cast boolits? Prolly as many times as I've mentioned about liking RCBS moulds. Well..., I do.
Just looking for some halfway decent loads with cheaper powder, doncha know. This one may work okay, I'll let y'all know. btw, cases came out nice and clean, no sooting, and the bore is VERY clean. sundog