From Handloads.com "Experiences with a .32". [Archive]

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gunfan

05-28-2012, 05:02 AM

This material previously appeared in the Cast Bullet Association's Fouling Shot magazine.

“Cast Bullets Turn the .32 ACP into A Bunny Buster”

OK children, todays cast bullet trivia question is … Who was J.V.K. Wagar?

No, he was not a writer of children’s fiction depicting Norse mythology. If you Google Mr. Wagar you’ll find that he was a Colorado forester who was active in the Wildlife Society of Colorado A&M University and various professional organizations into the mid 1950s. He also wrote an article which appeared in the August, 1931 issue of The American Rifleman on pgs. 14-15, entitled “Almost, the Best Small Pistol.” If you own a .32 automatic you really must read it. If you don’t own a .32 ACP, I urge you to read the article anyway. If you do, you may just find yourself buying a .32 pocket pistol years later, in fondly recalling the article. That’s exactly why I did.

Let’s be clear that the .32 ACP is not my choice as a defense gun against either two-legged or 4-legged predators. However, there are times when “any gun is better than no gun.” Because I can carry legally in my home state of Virginia, and West Virginia, where I have a vacation home recognizes my permit, I do so most of the time.

It is also true that many social and recreational occasions require that I do so discreetly, lest I “scare the natives.” When or where the cylinder bulge of my usual D-frame Colt .38 Special is too obvious, a .32 automatic drops nicely into a pocket holster. I also like the fact that it makes a bigger hole than a 22 and still presents a low profile.

A .32 automatic is small, light, flat and compact. It is convenient, accessible and practical to carry during woods-loafing hikes or overnights, which may present an opportunity to shoot small game for camp meat or plink a magazine or two at cans by firelight. You could just as easily do this with a .380 ACP or a 9x18 Makarov, but the .32 ACP’s appeal for me is that used guns for it these days are plentiful and cheap, and it uses the same components I have already for the .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R Magnum, my preferred trail revolvers.

While the .32 ACP cartridge benefits from new variants in factory ammunition, US loads are more anemic than their European counterparts. Typical American FMJs feature a 71-grain bullet at an advertised “catalog velocity” of 905 f.p.s. But in my chronograph tests they actually produce velocities more like 850 f.p.s. in the average pocket pistol. European RWS, Geco, Fiocchi or Sellier & Belliot ammo really do clock 900 f.p.s. and do so with a heavier 73-grain bullet, which functions WWII-era pistols positively!

Most WWII-era FN, Beretta, CZ, and Mauser pistols steadfastly refuse to function with modern American ammo. Popular 60-gr. JHPs, are a sure recipe for a “Jam-O-Matic,” regardless of their flavor. Only the Italian Fiocchi 60-gr. JHP at 1200 f.p.s. has enough pizzazz, from the first round loaded up the spout, to positively eject and reliably chamber a hardball or cast bullet load following in the magazine. But its exposed lead nose deforms on striking the feed ramp and doesn’t permit rat-tat-tat-tat feeding any more than the anemic 900 f.p.s. American JHPs.

Expansion from typical .32 autos is a sometime thing. Of U.S. brands I water-jug tested, only the Speer Gold Dot opened up every time, but it just wouldn’t feed. The Fiocchi 60-gr. JHP is a hotter load, chronographing close to 1200 fps, and expanding reliably to .50 cal. or over in water jugs, but it doesn't rat-tat-tat either, so I limit its use to the first round chambered.

In over 30 years experience, I have found that the best small game load for a .32 ACP is assembled with a flat-nosed cast bullet, heavier than issue FMJ, to produce a heavier recoil impulse. These must be loaded to lower velocity to stay within normal pressures, and the resulting load approximates the ballistics of the .32 S&W Long or .32 Colt New Police when fired from a 4-inch revolver. We are talking about an 85 to 98 grain flat-nosed cowboy bullet such as the 94-gr. Meister, or semi-wadcutter such as the Saeco #325 or RCBS 32-98SWC(in pistols which feed them) launched at 750-800 f.p.s. How I arrived at this conclusion takes us to directly to Wagar’s article…

When I was fresh out of the Navy and an eager new NRA Staffer our Executive Editor Ken Warner asked me to assemble some cast bullet loads for an M1903 Colt Pocket Model .32 ACP. The first thought in my head was, “why the ^&*^%#!@ would anybody want to do THAT? The gun belonged to the late Harry Archer, who then worked for our government and was being sent out of the country clandestinely on our behalf. Harry needed some ammunition which reliably functioned his M-series Colt, and which would be more effective than hardball, the only ammo then available.

When I asked why Harry was packing a .32 and not something more effective, I was informed politely that it was really none of my business, but that “when in Rome, you do as the Roman’s do.” Ken explained to me that if Harry took a .45 or a .357 it would be obvious that he was “not a local.” Since “the bad guys” where he was going normally used .32 automatics, while military and police carried various 9mms, the Colt would be discreet and also “blend in.” While an FN or Beretta would have been better, we didn’t have one. Walthers, according to Harry, were notorious “hand biters,” and not an option, so ending the conversation.

Loading manuals were of little help, so I researched the NRA archives and stumbled upon Wagar’s article. It was an entertaining treasure trove of practical information on the Colt pocket model and loading cast bullets for the .32 ACP. Wagar said that, “it has proved so useful for much of the outdoor shooting in our part of the country that … I frequently leave my heavier pistols and revolvers at home…

“This is not a deep wilderness side arm…, but as a light pistol to accompany the big rifle it has many advantages… one is never hampered by its weight and bulk and it need not be left behind because the way is hard and steep or the trail long…“The .32 Colt Automatic… is the biggest pistol that fits comfortably into ones pockets… and its owner isn’t often asked by some romance filled tourist if you are a real live cowboy, so the hills are full of these pistols.”

“Practical accuracy is not of the spectacular kind… I can obtain quite good accuracy holding the pistol in both hands and resting them upon my knees I can hit a 50-cent piece practically with every shot at 20 yards. … is almost ideal for strictly small game shooting, we have shot many cottontails, grouse, squirrels… over 200 pieces of game in all--- and have found it unexcelled. It is just enough larger than a .22 Long Rifle to make it a more certain killer, yet destroys little more flesh and makes little more noise in the woods…cast bullets will give more killing power than the jacketed factory bullets. They do not expand upon flesh, but roughen when they strike bone and tear flesh rather than parting it.”

“If one has access to an Ideal No. 4 tool and mould for the .32 S&W he is well equipped… The .32 S&W bullet weighs 88 grains and its diameter of .313 inch is well adapted... I have loaded many hundreds of .32 A.C. cartridges with .32 S&W tools…If one shoots a high-powered .30 caliber rifle Marbles adapters using the .32 A.C. cartridge can be used for small game shooting or one can use the .32 A.C. cartridge in the Winchester adapters made for firing .32 S&W cartridges in the .30-30, .30-40 and .30-‘06 rifles.

In closing, Wagar summarized: "This is not a target arm, nor is it powerful enough for defense purposes against great beasts or armed men of great virility; but considering its short length, light weight, light report and recoil, and cheapness of ammunition, one will have difficulty in finding a more accurate, more reliable and more powerful pistol just to take along.”

The .32 ACP pocket guns don't have any great reputation for accuracy. The Speer No. 13 handbook states that 3-4" at 25 yards is about the best you can hope for. This is in keeping with WWII German military and postwar German police acceptance accuracy standards which allowed 5 mils or 75mm of dispersion (about 3") at 15 meters (approximately 49 ft.). Any pocket pistol which groups better than 4 mils, or 60mm (2.36") at 15 meters is said by Europeans to be quite good.

My experience with a dozen or so pocket guns over the years confirms that the most accurate pocket pistols are the Walther PP (not the PPK), FN M1922, Mauser HSc, Beretta M70, Colt Pocket and CZ27. The best pocket guns reliably shoot into about 2” at 50 feet. Any pocket pistol which does should be considered a “keeper.”

During my 1972 introduction to the Colt Pocket Hammerless, I became impressed with its instinctive pointing, reliable function and practical accuracy “for what it was.” Reading Col. Rex Applegate's close combat files and practicing WWII techniques I understood why people who have these don't get rid of them. During that era I tested just about every .32 ACP pistol made, to isolate which guns were the most reliable, accurate, and natural pointers. We fired lab specimens borrowed from the NRA museum, FBI and BATF labs as well as some unusual guns borrowed from military collections.

No hollow-point factory loads existed then, so we shot “hot” European hardball and handloads assembled with cast bullets and Winchester factory lead, 100-grain flat-nosed .32-20 slugs. These, loaded to 0.97" OAL with 2.4 grs. of Unique became Harry’s choice for handloaded carry ammo in his overseas go-bag.

Use of M-series Colt Pocket Hammerless pistols during WWII by our OSS and Britain’s SOE is well documented. Colt Pocket Models were issued to U.S. general officers well into the 1970s. A Type III Colt was Harry’s choice for discreet carry when a larger, more adequate firearm was not "mission feasible."

The various Berettas M1934/35, M70, the VZ/CZ27, Mauser M1910 and HSc, the Browning M1910 and M1922 also "made the cut" in terms of reliability, but in Harry’s eyes were only substitutes, being “acceptable, but not first choice,” compared to the Colt. I have since collected all of the .32 autos on what the insiders down “at the farm” used to call “Harry's Good List.” I've shot them all fairly extensively and the results are interesting.

I fired eight-shot groups, because that’s what their magazines hold. While these are short-range guns I shot them at 25 yards to allow comparison with typical service guns, although that represents extreme range for a pocket pistol. For field utility in shooting small game for camp meat, ten to fifteen yards is the practical limit for any reasonable expectation of "small game accuracy," which I see as a two-inch group.

In recent testing intended to refresh my memory, typical .32 autos averaged 4 inches in series of five consecutive 8-shot groups, using RWS and Fioccho Ball ammo, Fiocchi hollowpoints and my cast loads with 98 grain. lead bullets and 1.7-1.8 grs. of Bullseye, counting fliers and all, discounting nothing. Six-shot groups fired from typical snubby revolvers are no different.

This level of accuracy is practical and realistic. Dispatching trapped animals and sitting short range rabbits, sure! But no head-shots at squirrels in tall trees. These little guns are for close woods range.

Flat-nosed cast bullets are more effective than LRN or FMJ hardball. They are cheaper than jacketed hollow-points, feed more reliably and tend to be more accurate! My best gun and load combinations group around 3 inches at 25 yards. My favorite cast bullet handloads use the Saeco #325 semi-wadcutter cast of wheelweights, lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox, and loaded as-cast and unsized with 1.7 to 1.8 grs. of Bullseye, seated to the normal revolver crimp groove and the rounds taper crimped using a custom Lee Factory Crimp Die. This has a carbide full length sizer which profiles the loaded round and sizes the bullet by compression inside the case, removing any bumps or bulges caused by any mismatch of the bullet diameter to case wall internal taper. A custom Lee FCD costs $30. I highly recommend it for anyone who is serious about reloading for the .32 ACP.

I fooled around some with the MCA chamber inserts enabling use of .32 ACP ammo as sub-caliber small game rounds in my .30-30. At 25 yards it was no more accurate than the pistol, and it was tedious to extract, reload the insert adapter and manually load it into the chamber each time. A reduced load with a 115-gr. lead .32-20 bullet and 5 grs. of Bullseye pistol powder loaded into a .30-30 case was more accurate and made more sense if I was carrying the .30-30 anyway.

But I got the idea to build a light, “walking around rifle” which would be both handy and quiet. Because I usuallly carry either a .32 S&W Long revolver or .32 ACP pocket pistol around our country place, I reallky wanted to be able to use either type of bunny gun ammo as small game rifle rounds. My reasoning was that for very light, quiet “.30 cal. CB cap” loads, approximating a .32 rimfire, that the tiny .32 ACP case could have advantages, whereas the larger .32 S&W Long case would have more powder capacity if I wanted to load something having a bit more energy and range, approximating a .32-20.

I had a seldom used H&R .410 single-shot on the tiny pre-war action which weighed about 4 pounds. I contacted John Taylor, at Taylor Machine in Toledo, WA and soon had a pair of barrels chambered for .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long equipped with XS ghost ring peep sights to fit my little H&R shotgun. And best of all I still had the .410 barrel too! I opted for an 18” barrel for the .32 ACP to have the “maximum handy” configuration, and a 26” one for the .32 S&W Long to ensure “maximum quiiiieett so as not to scare the bunny wabbits!”

I fired side-by-side tests indoors comparing the .32 S&W Long and .32 ACP barrels with iron sights at 25 yards, which I consider realistic “bunny wabbit” distance. Getting inch groups at 25 yards with iron sights proved challenging for 58-year-old eyes, but I managed to do so with enough different loads to prove the concept practical.

Factory Winchester .32 S&W Long 98-grain LRN, and .32 ACP Fiocchi and RWS 73-gr. hardball averaged just under inch groups at 25 yards. The 98-gr. LRN factory loads in the .32 S&W Long with 26 inch barrel gave 884 f.p.s. and were no louder than standard velocity .22 LR fired from a sporting length rifle.

In .32 ACP Fiocchi 73-grain hardball clocked 943 f.p.s., and RWS hardball was 1214 f.p.s. from the 18 inch barrel. Fiocchi 60-grain JHPs which gave 1199 f.p.s. from my 3.5 inch Beretta pistol screamed out 1463 f.p.s. in the 18” H&R walking rifle. Its sharper report was more like firing a .22 WMR.

My original goal was not high velocity, but quiet small game loads approximating the ballistics of a .32 Long rim fire (from .32 ACP brass) or standard velocity lead .32-20 loads (from .32 S&W Long brass). These objectives were met handily. If you don't cast your own bullets and want to buy some, the Meister 94-gr. LFN bullet of .312 diameter has a profile almost identical to the original flat-nosed factory bullet used in the .32 Colt New Police. Its ogive length enables a .975” overall cartridge length when taper-crimped into the .32 ACP and it doesn’t bulge cases.

Velocities of the .32 ACP cast bullet loads fired from my Beretta pistol approximate the velocities expected firing a .32 S&W Long 4” revolver using the same bullet with 2.5 grains of Bullseye. The samo ammo when fired from the 18” rifle for .32 ACP, loaded with the minimum 1.7 grain charge of Bullseye which still reliably functions my WWII-era European autopistols approaches the 900 f.p.s. This equals the velocity expected of standard velocity .32-20 Winchester factory lead bullet loads fired from a four-inch barreled revolver with typical 0.008" cylinder gap. These subsonic rifle loads gave a measured peak noise level of 90dB measured at 1 meter from the muzzle of the 18-inch barrel, this compares to firing high velocity .22 LR from a typical sporting rifle.

Attempting to drive a non-expanding cast bullet intended for small game supersonic in a small game rifle is a waste of powder. I don’t view this as a 100-yard rig. This is a “walking around gun,” so an iron-sight, 50 yard zero coupled with reliable 4 moa grouping and enough greater striking energy than a .22 LR to make reliable 1-shot kills on raccoon, groundhog, wild turkey (where legal) or the occasional marauding feral dog or coyote, is more than practical.

The .32 S&W Long barrel is 26” long and noticeably quieter, about a 5dB reduction at comparable subsonic velocities compared to the .32 ACP at 18.” While the longer 26" barrel of the .32 Long rifle balances better and is steadier for offhand shooting, its shorter .32 ACP counterpart carries like a dream for long walks along fence rows and scattered farm fields in search of furry or feathered edibles. The 18 inch .32 ACP barrel stows easily in a backpack when taken down, and carries effortlessly through mountainous, brushy woodlands of the type I often hunt. It is also faster handling in snap-shots and seems just as accurate at practical small game ranges as its longer .32 S&W Long cousin, despite its shorter sight radius.

I bought a dozen cakes of Ivory soap at Walmart and shot at these to compare the effect of bullet shape on impact. Lead round nose .32 S&W Long and .32 ACP hardball made clean, round 3/8 inch exits little different than those of .22 LR solids. Meister 94-grain LFNs fired from both calibers made larger, dime-sized exits with good small game potential. Fiocchi’s 60-gr. JHP made quarter-sized exits, too destructive for camp meat. Cast bullets are still best for small game and plinking. My little "Bunny Gun" shoots better than I can hold with iron sights, is no louder than a .22 rimfire and is more effective on edible game and varmints. Who could ask for anything more?

Edited by Ed Harris on August 15 2008 at 10:35am

__________________
In Home Mix We Trust
From the Home of "Ed's Red"
73 de KE4SKY
Regards, Ed

Olevern

05-28-2012, 10:19 AM

great info, thanks for the post.

Uncle R.

05-28-2012, 10:39 AM

great info, thanks for the post.

Yes indeed. This essay is packed with useful information and very well written. I'd like to see it made a "sticky."
<
Mods?
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Uncle R.

9.3X62AL

06-05-2012, 02:58 AM

GREAT article.

Rayber

06-18-2012, 11:55 PM

Another great article from Ed Harris..

My son loves his 32 Long colt/ 32 H&R Mag Ruger Single Six. I load the LEE 100 gr .311 round nose bullet for him. I get perfect .312 boolits when I drop them in water. He uses it for a trainer. It doesn't scare the ladies or the young people like my 1911 does. My kids were trained with the same 1911 40 years ago. They are both very safe and excellent shooters. ( smile). We now have a nice collection of handguns to choose from. We shoot cast BOOLITS in everything. WE are able to shoot frequently because of cast boolits. We capture our lead and reuse it . Every target is on a sand box or a cardboard box of catalogs. The 8x10 targets make us shoot better. (3" Black area)

I really enjoyed Ed's great article. It's an educational trip.

LUBEDUDE

06-19-2012, 10:10 AM

Good article, more vialble uses for the 32!

gunfan

01-29-2013, 10:21 PM

I know that being a .32 revolver/auto enthusiast is neither popular, nor fashionable... but it certainly is fun! These little pistols (and revolvers) are even more enjoyable when the barrels are longer. This is why I find the S&W Model 16-4 (chambered in .32 Magnum) that has had the chambered relieved to accept the .327 Federal Magnum so attractive. The broad spectrum of power on tap and the inherent accuracy of the revolver .32 revolver cartridge(s).

Gotta love it!

9.3X62AL

01-30-2013, 01:40 AM

Oh, I MUST beg to differ regarding the "popularity" question of the 32 caliber handguns on this site. Most threads with "32 Revolver" headings tend to span several pages, and I am among the chief cheerleaders for the calibers on those threads.

I'm another crank with a S&W Model 16-4, a 6"-barrelled variant that I've left in 32 Magnum/OEM form. It is the most accurate revolver I've ever owned, and does this trick with loads running from 700 to 1450 FPS.

More to the point of the original thread......I have a Walther PP in 32 ACP that I covet highly. I've fed it 85 grain Lyman #313249 at 850-900 FPS for years, and the sharp shoulder behind the boolit's round nose really does the job on small varmints. I've taken jackrabbits to 40 yards several times, and any center-mass hit anchors them positively. The 32 ACP is a lot more field cartridge than is the 22 LR in a handgun at any range, but as stated in the article above it needs to be loaded to its European level to fully exploit this capability.

gunfan

01-30-2013, 02:31 AM

FergusonTO35

02-04-2013, 10:37 AM

gunfan

02-06-2013, 02:27 AM

I carry Fiocchi ball in my Kel-Tec P32 and have chrono'd it at 890 fps out of that gun. As you probably know centerfire handgun ammo of any sort is very hard to get nowadays. I wonder if I could safely create my own .32 Auto +P load using new brass and a powder slower than the norm?

Love the .32 H&R also, I'm currently running the Ranch Dog 115 grain slug in it with excellent accuracy.

I'm running the same loads in both my CZ (Yugoslavian) single-action .32 ACP as well as my Tanfoglio of Italy "Titan." The latter is a wonderfully accurate pistol, and a lot of fun to boot. Even with the Fiocchi ammunition, they generate lower recoil and plenty of "grunt" for the bullet weight.

Love those little S/A .32 pistols!

Scott

9.3X62AL

02-06-2013, 08:21 PM

Thinking back over the years, I've had a load a good 32 ACP pistols. Rem Model 51, Colt 1903 (2 of those), Beretta 81 with its 12-shot mag capacity, just to name a few. I get by these days with an excellent Walther PP and a novelty Roth-Steyr M. 1908. I wouldn't mind having a new-series PPK or PPK/S from Smith & Walther, but other needs/wants are lined up ahead of those.

32 ACP isn't the only caliber that USA ammomakers "geld" indiscriminately. 9mm Luger suffers from that same malady, as does 8 x 57 Mauser. 380 ACP isn't done any favors, either.

gunfan

02-06-2013, 08:47 PM

slewfoot

04-04-2013, 10:26 AM

9.3X62AL

04-04-2013, 12:12 PM

Fiocchi helps the .380 quite a bit. I don't see Walther cataloging the .32 ACP anymore. Perhaps they just gave up on it. I hope you can find one.

Scott

The S&W website shows the 32 ACP as being still available in the Walther PPK and PPK/S.

9.3X62AL

04-04-2013, 12:18 PM

would like to know if it is recommended to use a 32 short colt 71 gr fmj round nose newly made bullets in a 32 colt police positive just found some of these but unsure whether to use them or not have the long colts but wanted to save them

thanks

Welcome to the board, Slewfoot! Most FMJ nominal 32 caliber bullets of 71 grains are intended for use in 32 Auto applications. Virtually all 32 S&W, S&W Long, and Colt Short and Long factory cartridges use lead-alloy bullets. Colt revolvers tend to be dimensioned a little tighter in throats and grooves than are S&Ws, and the .309"-.311" FMJs might be a good fit in the Colt's throats. They could be workable in your revolver, but castings of appropriate size and weight are far less expensive and a lot more flexible.

slewfoot

04-04-2013, 02:15 PM

while i am learning about this i get that you are saying that it would be safe to fire these although i have the old colt longs and ordered some bullets from wilson to reload later when i learn how i just saw these on gb made by deadzone ammunition and i thought i would try them just didn't want to mess up my gun ,well it was my grandfathers ,i just recently retired and want to get into reloading so i can have some equipment to leave my son.real later i hope.it is a 32 colt police positive chambered for 32 long or shorts i guess ..made in 1911

thanks
again.

9.3X62AL

04-04-2013, 04:34 PM

These revolvers were made in both 32 Colt (Short and Long) AND in 32 S&W Long, which Colt called "32 Colt New Police". If the chambers have a "shelf/step" of smaller diameter ahead of the cartridge case space, it is most likely a 32 SWL/NP. If the chambers are drilled straight-through (no shelf/step), then it is likely a 32 Colt. EXACT text of the barrel's caliber markings might clear up the question for you--I have a catalog of Colt variants from 1836-1954 that I can consult for confirmation. 32 S&W Long is A LOT easier to find, a lot easier to reload, and a lot more accurate.

slewfoot

04-05-2013, 04:12 PM

nope it a 32 long colt i remember that when i was a little kid my father caught me trying to load a 32 s&w in it and he wore me out he had hid the only bullets he had because then they were price wise like gold to the farmer . i really would like to fine a place that would tell me exactly what kind of dies etc and the press i need to start. nothing fancy yet. later on will get better equipment , i have ordered the bullets from this wilson place then i could start reloading after shooting some because they are high real high when everybody is looking, have accumulated about 400 rounds to date . shoot some then reload over time just to keep the pistol alive for another 100 years .this gun has never really been shot that much.i also wanted to reload shotgun shell like when there was no plastic in them and for a 223.there are millions of items out there and experts that seem to know, but i heard that on this sight you can get info from real experts and old school fellows thats what i like.

harold
and thank for the conversation.slowing learning

9.3X62AL

04-05-2013, 05:06 PM

Some of this is paraphrased info from "Cartridges of the World, 7th Edition" by Barnes et al. The 32 Short Colt originated in 1875 as an outside-lubricated cartridge (like a 22 LR) with .313" bullet and a casing not much wider at all--possibly .320". It was known in Europe as the "320 Revolver", and was far more popular there. (Hint--check Fiocchi, RWS, GECO, and Prvi Partizan cartridge sites--one or more of those companies may still offer it as loaded ammo). With the cartridge case diameter of .335"+, the 32 S&W Long likely won't fit into your revolver's chambers if they are indeed chambered for the 32 Colts. CAUTION--I have seen several examples of 32 Colt revolvers--all small frames--that were marked as 32 Colt, but had 32 S&W cylinders installed in the aftermarket OR 32 Colt chambers reamed to accept the easier-to-find 32 S&W Long. A few of these were well-done examples, a couple were butcher-jobs. I "passed" on all of them.

There are die sets made for loading the 32 Colt. They are custom-made and priced accordingly. RCBS or Huntington's Sportsman Supply might be able to help you with tooling. Lee does off-the-wall calibers once in a while--it wouldn't hurt to inquire there, and the tooling would be A LOT less expensive. Lee's Factory Crimp Die might be adapted to set the heeled-bullet crimp more easily than conventional-cartridge dies accomplish the task. It can't be rocket science. I have no personal experience loading heeled bullets, though a few subscribers here have done so with expressed success.

Again per COTW, the 32 Long Colt was for a time loaded with an inside-lubricated lead bullet of .299" diameter. I'll bet these improvisations were about as accurate as a trebouchet. If it was my revolver, and I knew for a fact that it was indeed in 32 Colt--I would strive to load outside-lubricated/heeled bullets in order to gain as much accuracy as possible from my reloading. I have a real attraction to oddball calibers, and refill such things as 7.62 x 38R, 7.65 MAS pistol, 30 Luger, 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev, and 9.3 x 62 Mauser. I have past fondness for 6.5 x 54 Mann/Sch and 8 x 56 Mann/Sch, too. So, I've seen similar movies as the one you're in the middle of. Best of luck, and I hope my small bit has helped a little.

Mk42gunner

04-06-2013, 02:56 AM

For reloading the .32 Colt cartridges, CH4D has dies for both the short and the long; I do not know if both can be loaded with one set of dies or not. Tom at Accurate molds has a very good heeled boolit mold 31-090A, that shoots well from my No.2 Remington Rolling Block. I will be ordering one when my tax check gets back. He also has a newer one that I haven't shot yet the 31-090C that looks okay to me.

The hard part is finding actual .32 Long Colt brass, but it can be made from .32 S&W Long with a bit of ingenuity. Modern loading data for the Colt cartridges is also pretty much non-existant.

Robert

w30wcf

04-26-2013, 09:17 PM

The 31-090A was designed with a heel diameter of .305" because I wanted it to be a snug fit in fired brass to eliminate resizing the case so that I could get 30+ reloads from a case in my '92 Marlin. :smile:

If one is resizing their brass, the heel diameter (which can be specified when ordering a mold from Tom) should be no larger than the flaring portion of the expander die for trouble free loading.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/Accurate31-090Acartridge.jpg

The .32 Colt New Police on the other hand uses the larger diameter .32 S&W brass and .313" bullets.
Bullets are flat nosed whereas the 32 S&W uses round nosed bullets.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/32ColtNewPolice.jpg

w30wcf

gunfan

04-27-2013, 12:19 AM

Bad news: A Walther PPK/s in .32 ACP (of S&W manufacture) is no longer cataloged. There are some nice stainless examples still floating around, but a brand new PPK/s will become increasingly scarce with each passing day.

Damn.

Scott

9.3X62AL

04-27-2013, 02:40 PM

Crud. I guess a 32 ACP isn't very "sexy", with all the sub-compact 9mm/40S&W/45 ACP options out there.

gunfan

04-27-2013, 04:06 PM

Crud. I guess a 32 ACP isn't very "sexy", with all the sub-compact 9mm/40S&W/45 ACP options out there.

That is, unless you like you martinis "shaken, not stirred." ;) What annoys me is the fact that some shooters fail to realize that the Walther PP and PPK/s were originally engineered to fire the .32 ACP. This is why, when the PPK/s is chambered for the .380 ACP, "hammer bite" rears it's ugly head all too often.

In the quest for what I view as a marginally (as well as questionably) more effective chambering, the "machismo" of the American shooting public rises to the surface.

Scott

olafhardt

05-09-2013, 01:29 PM

nvald1982

05-09-2013, 08:24 PM

is handloads.com a good place to get load data still new reloading but I am still stuck only using manuals

trapper9260

05-10-2013, 11:40 AM

[QUOTE=FergusonTO35;2041930]I carry Fiocchi ball in my Kel-Tec P32 and have chrono'd it at 890 fps out of that gun. As you probably know centerfire handgun ammo of any sort is very hard to get nowadays. I wonder if I could safely create my own .32 Auto +P load using new brass and a powder slower than the norm?

Ferguson i have the same one as you and like to know what is the biggest gr cast bullet you shoot in it .i shoot 85grRn and it shoot better then the factory ammo I gotten I also shoot the others 32 in my 327.Also if someone else have any advice on what the biggest I could shoot in it of the P32 also the data that I can start with ,because i would use the same size bullet in my other 32 brass up to 327 .

olafhardt

05-11-2013, 03:14 AM

Nvlad, I shoot 32's in revolvers and I used to buy every reloading book I could. I found out the hard way that the 32 data sections really need to be taken with a grain of salt. I still use the manuals, but I like to check what others are loading and shooting. The 32 size loads don't always meter that well.I like to use a dipper made out of a filed down 22 short casing. If you take the data for the one cc Lee dipper it is the density of your powder in grains per cc. I then use a one ml insulin srynge ( 1 ml= 0.1 cc) to calibrate the dipper and keep filing till it's what I want. Most places you can get srynges at pharmacies, clinics, vets, or feed stores. In 32's smaller than 32 H&R magnum I don't use any thing larger than the smallest Lee dipper is probably to hot in the 32 ACP. I consider this to be 2.7 grains of Uniquewhich is over reccomended max in the 32ACP but works in the 32 SWL I load the 32 S&W (short) with a filed down 22 short case whose volume escapes me.

9.3X62AL

05-12-2013, 02:10 AM

that is, unless you like you martinis "shaken, not stirred." ;) what annoys me is the fact that some shooters fail to realize that the walther pp and ppk/s were originally engineered to fire the .32 acp. This is why, when the ppk/s is chambered for the .380 acp, "hammer bite" rears it's ugly head all too often.

It the quest for what i view as a marginally (as well as questionably) more effective chambering, the "machismo" of the american shooting public rises to the surface.

Scott

^^^ this! ^^^

Dale53

05-19-2013, 01:39 AM

I am coming to this party VERY late. I, too, am a bit of a fan of the .32's. My favoring small, light revolvers, as companion pieces to my bird gun, settled on center fires as I was not terribly impressed with the .22 rimfire on edible small game. Often, when grouse hunting in rough country, I would encounter a sitting rabbit and sometimes was presented with a wounded or sitting grouse. The handgun was ideal for this. After knocking a grouse down with a marginal hit (we hunted in the hills of Eastern Ohio in steep country) I was most reluctant to shoot a grounded grouse again with the shotgun. After all, we ate these scrumptious birds. A wounded grouse would let you get fairly close but not close enough to grab them. Further, they were expert in making it into briar patches that would have taken a bull dozer to root them out. On the other hand, it was relatively easy to clip their heads off with a handgun and preserve your meal. Further, the family appreciated "one hole rabbits" as opposed to picking shot out of their teeth. A sitting rabbit up to at least 25 yards was a right sporting target for a decent pistol shot.

My favorite range revolver in a centerfire .32 is my 16-4 .32 Magnum with six inch barrel (it now carries a Red Dot sight). However, it is a bit cumbersome to carry (although tolerable in an across the chest Bianchi Hush System holster for scoped guns). My two favorite handguns in this role is a Smith 631 chambered in .32 H&R Magnum (4" with adjustable sights) or my .38 Special Chiefs Target (3" full underlugged barrel with Smith adjustable sights). Loaded at .32 S&W Long levels with a good wadcutter or SWC of about 100 grs in the .32 and 148 grs in the .38 worked extremely well at their appointed task.

The .32's with a proper bullet shape is a MUCH better killer on edible small game than any .22 I have used. The same applies to a properly loaded .38 Special (only more so).

Here's my 16-4:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3322.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3322.jpg.html)

Here is the Smith 631:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/DalesPistolsRevolvers4Selects-0330.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/DalesPistolsRevolvers4Selects-0330.jpg.html)

Another revolver that I haven't really hunted with but would have every confidence in it is the Ruger SP 101 with 4" barrel in .32 H&R Magnum. Unfortunately, this revolver came with a rear sight that was only adjustable for windage. I could not get it to shoot to the sights as issued. I took it to my pistolsmith, and he mounted a Weaver rail on it. It is now sighted with a Red Dot and it almost magically became easy to hit with. The only criticism I have of this revolver is that the grip is small and even with after market grips it is a bit of a challenge for me (I have rather large hands). However, this is a very stout little revolver and would work very well as a side gun in a proper cross draw. Being visually challenged these days, a Red Dot sight really makes this combination work:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/DalesPistolsRevolvers5Selects-0261.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/DalesPistolsRevolvers5Selects-0261.jpg.html)

Dale53

Outpost75

06-01-2013, 10:45 AM

Link to CBA forum stuff related:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=8113&forum_id=48

Green Frog

06-03-2013, 12:15 PM

My interest in the 32s is pretty well known on the S&W Forum, but I found this from our very own CastBoolit guy while looking for info about a Lyman bullet mould... it's one of the best things I've found, even though it's 8 years old and predates the 327 FM I'm currently excited about.

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/32hrcast.htm

I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did!
BTW, Dale53 and I have been swapping 32 info back and forth for a long time. Now if I could just get him away from his Model 631 long enough to spirit it away... :kidding:

Froggie

PS Here's my contribution to the party;

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/260686-project-616-a.html

Outpost75

07-11-2013, 09:51 PM

I took this basket case round butt S&W M15 which had a bulged barrel and cracked cylinder from too many rounds of Q4070, and converted it into a .32 S&W Long trail gun.

I was fortunate to find a .32 S&W Long K-32 cylinder at a gun show. The barrel was fabricated from a pull-off 7.62 NATO Sportco barrel in normal .30 cal. dimensions with 14" twist. The smith who did the work fitted a crane-ball lockup and slab-sided the bull barrel after having machined integral rib and front sight from a separate piece of stock and inlaying it into a lengthwise dovetail cut down the top of the slabbed bull barrel

The gun shoots very well with #3118 and 2.5 grains of Bullseye, but while I have experimented with heavier loads I don't push routinely it harder because there is no need to.

75910

.32 S&W Long data fired in 4" "K-32 round butt"

Saeco #325, 98-gr. SWC
2.0 grs. Bullseye, 737 fps, 25 Sd
2.5 grs. Bullseye, 859 fps, 14 Sd
3.0 grs. Bullseye, 954 fps, 13 Sd
7.0 grs. #2400, 1014 fps, 28 Sd

NEI #82, 115-gr. FN (similar to Ideal #3118)
2.0 grs. Bullseye, 723 fps, 15 Sd
2.5 grs. Bullseye, 838 fps, 11 Sd
3.0 grs. Bullseye, 930, 17 Sd

Saeco #322, 120-gr. LFN, seated out and crimped in lube groove, OAL 1.30"
1.5 grs. Bullseye 638 fps, 45 Sd
2.0 grs. Bullseye 700 fps, 25 Sd
2.5 grs. Bullseye 797 fps, 14 Sd

IN CASE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE from the above data, a charge of 2.5 grains of Bullseye gives optimum performance with just about any bullet in the .32 S&W Long without straining a sturdy post WW2 revolver. Fine for your S&W J frames Models 30 and 31, etc.

9.3X62AL

07-12-2013, 07:55 AM

Outpost, THAT is a fine field revolver indeed!

I good little 4" S&W or Colt small-frame 32 SWL would be a nice acquisition, and I am quasi-seriously in the hunt mode for such an example presently. This is not to say that I would pass up a S&W 631 x 4" that showed itself.......or one of the REALLY rare K-32/Model 16 early-series Masterpiece models.

Outpost75

01-28-2014, 12:15 AM

Kick starting this old thread....

JT and I have been brainstorming what started as a light .30 cal rifle, plainbase plinker, but which has evolved into a .311-.312 diameter, 100-grain flatnosed, bevel-based bullet, which would also be useable in.32 ACP, .30 Luger, .30 Mauser, 7.62x25, etc.

A drawing is posted, but the design is not engraved in stone. We need 20 committed orders for six-cavity molds at $125 each to make it "fly".

Discussionis encouraged, pls. visit the group but thread and put in your Two Cents.

clarke123

03-13-2014, 09:47 AM

I have a .32 ACP from Taurus (732) that does well with 73 GR S&B FMJ's.

I liked it so much that i ordered a die set and started loading 75 GR (.313 Dia)
Cast FP's from Rim Rock Bullets using Ranch Dog Outdoors loading data
of 2.8 GR of Universal.

My initial experience has not been good ... I'm getting FTF's (some actually stuck half-way into battery!).
So, it looks like I need to get the Lee Factory Crimp Die unless someone else has a better suggestion?!
BTW: accuracy in this loading has been quite acceptable, with no indications of over-pressure.
Another BTW: The sights on the TCP are pityful ... I'm looking into drilling some dimples into them and adding
a drop of sight paint ... ?

Outpost75

03-13-2014, 09:50 AM

Accurate 31-087T bullet is designed to fit the .32 ACP case and throat and mitigates against the case bulge problem when sized properly to .311-.312"

If you are looking for a mold which feeds and has better small game performance than a plain round nose, this is it.

99437 9943899439

clarke123

03-14-2014, 08:59 AM

Thanks OutPost75 ... but I currently "do not actually cast, but do consume" Cast Boolits!
So, (at least for now) I'm going to attempt to "fix" what appears to be the standard stock of what's available commercially.
I contacted Rim Rock Bullets who informed me that Buffalo Bore (who uses this same projectile in their loads)
uses the Lee Factory Crimp Die in their loading (apparently with no problem). So, I'm going to order one and give it a try.
I'll let you know how it works!

clarke123

03-15-2014, 08:31 AM

I really, really appreciate the knowledge and enthusiastic support that you guys provide to each other, including myself.

Oh well, Lee is so swamped with custom orders that they will not accept my order for the FCD at this time.
Heck, I really don't know whether or not it would solve the problem or not!
So, it's back to reloading FMJ's (if I can find any!). I know you guys love cast bullets, and I most certainly would like to as well.
However, my luck with cast projectiles has been 100% unfortunate.

This started with .40 S&W's, then with .45 LC's and now with
.32 ACP's ... The problems have included: abysmal lack of specific loading data (.40 S&W), absolute necessity for FCD (.45 LC), and now those that are affecting loading .32 ACP

tejano

03-15-2014, 10:37 AM

Redding taper crimp die (Midway purchase) solved the problem for me with the same Rimrock bullet.

clarke123

03-16-2014, 10:11 AM

THANKS! I just placed a backorder with MidWay for the Redding taper crimp die

Outpost75

03-16-2014, 11:35 AM

I like 32's because you can get truly small cf revolvers that don't kick much and will put a 90-100 grain boolit throough a lot of stuff. A pound of powder and a coffee can of wheelweights goes a long way. Truth be told, I loved them before I ever started reloading, and I don't really know why, nor do I care why I just do.

When I was a kid we used a .32 revolver on the trap line and it performed well. Ever since I have used either .32 revolvers or autopistols for the same purposes that "normal people" would use a .22 LR for, but these days with the scarcity and higher cost of .22 ammo, the .32s make more sense than ever. The .22LR may be nice for people who like to mindlessly blaze away 500 rounds in an afternoon at cans, but at today's costs I see that a less viable passtime. A box of fifty .32s lasts for a week of casual woods loafing and encourages development of fieldcraft and marksmanship skills which are more useful than fantasy ninja zombie drills.

99657

clarke123

03-16-2014, 03:34 PM

Ok guys, here's some advice I got from some of my friends on theoutdoorstrader.com headquartered here in Georgia, USA

Someone suggested a temporary fix (until I can get a real taper die)

Take the depriming rod out of the sizing die and run the loaded rounds through it. It will size the overall dia down to near correct size and they worked perfect for them.

I did just that and "appearances" are that this just might be a workable fix ...
I mic'd one and the "Before" girdle diameter was .339, "After" is .330 as compared to a "factory fresh" S&B at .334.
Standard Published Specification is .336
Hmmmm ...

Any reason that this shouldn't be a workable, safe "temporary" fix?

Green Frog

03-17-2014, 12:19 PM

35remington

03-17-2014, 11:36 PM

I'm wondering just how much that's mashing your cast bullet down in diameter. Keep in mind the sizing die sizes the case smaller than needed, then the expanding plug brings it up to correct size to accept the bullet with a friction fit. By measurement I get nine thou. If that's all coming off bullet diameter......that's a lot.

Given that standard diameter is supposed to be .311" and your bullets were .313" a reduction of a couple thou seems more appropriate, or at least to the maximum of .366." Again, nine thou less, and a full 0.006" less than max diameter to .360" seems like too much.

clarke123

03-21-2014, 01:55 PM

Ok, running the loaded projectiles back through the sizing die worked!

Run them (loaded rounds) through my sizing die (W/O de-cap rod), took them to the range and
NO PROBLEMS ... all fed, shot and extracted 100%.

I mic'd one and the "Before the re-sizing" girdle diameter was .339, "After" is .330 as compared to a "factory fresh" S&B at .334.
Standard Published Specification is .336. One other change was that the COAL grew by about 3/1000 ... So, it looks like
some form of swagging took place?!

I see this as pretty much a "temporary fix" until I can get the taper crimp die that I have on back-order

35remington

03-23-2014, 04:08 PM

Again, given the extreme mashing that's taking place, I'd wager something undesirable is happening to the bullet. I suspect it's quite a bit undersized, and well below the needed diameter. Feeding functionality is only half of the equation.

tejano

03-23-2014, 08:27 PM

With the redding taper crimp die I apply just enough crimp so that the loaded cartridge fits snugly in the barrel from the disassembled pistol, either a Beretta or a CZ. I test each one because more often than not there are 1 or 2 that need just a tad more crimp. It takes more time but as a retiree I don't seem to mind.

Outpost75

04-11-2014, 10:18 AM

Some groups fired with Accurate's 31-087T at seven yards, sandbagged, from my Beretta Tomcat with 2.4" barrel. Winchester cases and primers, 2 grains of Bullseye, 31-087T cast of wheelweights, tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, sized .312".

These are EIGHT shot groups, including fliers and all, what you see is what you get. Nothing excluded. An average of two-inch groups at seven yards for a series fired with a mousegun is reality.

One group with RWS hardball is there as a sanity check went 1.6," THAT is good ammo.

102056102059

Here is a TEN YARD sanity check of same load fired from my Walther PP. Again, EIGHT shot groups, six of them averaging 1.8," whereas the control group of RWS hardball was 2.1". With a standard pocket pistol 2 inches at ten yards is reality.

102057 102058

9.3X62AL

05-12-2014, 11:52 PM

Late response here......Outpost, an 87 grain casting atop 2.0 grains of Bullseye in the 32 ACP is a right healthy load. I've run Lyman #313249 under that same powder/weight or 2.2 grains of WW-231, and both loads improve the performance of the caliber significantly from that seen with factory 71 FMJs.......most of those clock 750-775 FPS from real pistol barrels. The above loads run 850-875 FPS from my Walther PP, and the square front shoulders of the bullet cut clean holes in paper or varmint hides.

preparehandbook

10-11-2015, 05:00 PM

“Practical accuracy is not of the spectacular kind… I can obtain quite good accuracy holding the pistol in both hands and resting them upon my knees I can hit a 50-cent piece practically with every shot at 20 yards"

What does he consider "spectacular" ???

Outpost75

10-11-2015, 05:14 PM

The original author of the 1932 article is long deceased. Consult a crystal ball...

preparehandbook

10-11-2015, 07:26 PM

The original author of the 1932 article is long deceased. Consult a crystal ball...
My crystal ball says that he is decidedly unimpressed by what passes for firearms proficiency nowadays, he also said that in his day any 7 year old boy could reliably put a bullet through the Kaiser's monocle at 75 yards.

Outpost75

10-11-2015, 08:19 PM

My crystal ball says that he is decidedly unimpressed by what passes for firearms proficiency nowadays, he also said that in his day any 7 year old boy could reliably put a bullet through the Kaiser's monocle at 75 yards.

I would agree with your cogent assessment!

9.3X62AL

10-12-2015, 06:48 PM

FergusonTO35

10-19-2015, 09:55 AM

FYI, the Lee tape crimp die works great for my .32's, which are fed to a Kel-Tec P32 with a rather generous groove diameter. I size to .313 and have had nothing but stellar performance. Most .32 Auto brass is thin and I suspect a hard boolit will not swage down as long as the case mouth has enough flare.

Ric-san

11-04-2015, 11:03 PM

I saw a posting or two on the .32 H&R magnum...but none on the .327 Federal Magnum....I just recently started to roll my own using the 90 gr. Lee SWC TL mold, I powder coat them and use either Trail Boss or HP-38...,fun round to reload as it's expensive if you buy off of the shelf

Don Fischer

01-31-2016, 10:25 PM

This is interesting. My favorite handgun is a mod 16 Smith in 32 S&W long. I also have a 1917 Savage in 32 ACP. Didn't have a lot of ammo for it and the gun doesn't have the best of sight's on it. The handle is darn near bigger than the whole rest of the gun! I did shoot up the ammo I had and never reloaded anymore, not even sure i still have the mty's anymore. Speaking of mty's they are a pain in the buttok's to find after being shot! Actually so are my 9mm's and anything else fired from an auto loader. I didn't know anyone ever made a revolver in 32 ACP, that just might make a good rabbit round. Plus if you pull the shot a bit, you can run down range and catch the bullet for reuse! lol

I got that Savage from a very good friend when he passed. Came in the factory box with two magazines! Interesting little gun.

Captain O

03-03-2016, 04:27 AM

The .32 ACP can be fired in a revolver chambered for the .32 H&R Magnum or .327 Federal Magnum. Since it is a semi rimmed cartridge, you will have to pick the empty cases from the cylinder (a royal pain). I can't see how much value that would have, unless the .32 ACP ammunition is your only option.

Don, I would like to see some pictures of that 1907 Savage.

Outpost75

03-03-2016, 01:06 PM

The .32 ACP can be fired in a revolver chambered for the .32 [S&W Long or] H&R Magnum or .327 Federal Magnum. Since it is a semi rimmed cartridge, you will have to pick the empty cases from the cylinder (a royal pain). I can't see how much value that would have, unless the .32 ACP ammunition is your only option...

I have a little experience with that, since we once had a case come through in which an FMJ bullet came through with "skid marks" characteristic of being shot from a revolver.

A Colt Cobra revolver would extract the semi-rimmed empties. Velocity of the Winchester 71-grain FMJ .32 ACP was less than 600 fps from the 2" barrel, vs. 878 fps when fired from a Colt M1903 pocket hammerless in the lab collection. Accuracy was poor, in the order of 3" groups at 50 feet, approximately double that of ordinary 98-grain LRN Winchester factory loads for the .32 S&W Long fired at the same time.

The evidence revolver occasionally misfired with .32 ACPs because the thinner 0.045 rim thickness vs. 0.055 for the .32 S&W Long and Colt New Police created a condition of excessive headspace when .32 ACP ammunition was used. The steel firing pin bushing staked into the light aluminum alloy frame had also been peened loose and set back about 0.01" from apparent, repeated setback of the .32 ACP cartridges against the recoil shield of the Colt Cobra revolver.

So while it might "work" as an emergency expedient, performance is inferior to using the ammunition for which the revolver is intended.

9.3X62AL

03-04-2016, 09:15 AM

This 32 ACP-in-32 SWL question piqued my curiosity a bit. I tried placing 32 ACP rounds into the charge holes of my S&W Model 16-4 (32 Magnum). They did fit, and pressing on the revolver's extractor rod did lift them out. I suspect that if fired and ejected as I normally do--with cylinder's back end pointed at the ground, middle and ring fingers of left hand through the cylinder window, and thumb pressing down the extractor--that empties would extract & eject. NOT going to test-drive the concept with live fire, though.

I gave the entire thread a re-read just now, and will add to the text my use of a sizing die as a taper-crimp applier in straightwall handgun cases. I have done so as follows--with decapping assembly removed, I screw the die in just far enough to "kiss" the case mouth and take the bullet-seating flare out. This prevents any possible squeeze-down of bullet diameter, which seems likely with most cast bullets if the loaded cartridge is run fully into the die.

I would submit that a lot of autopistol leading problems get caused by over-enthusiastic application of taper crimp, and/or by seating a cast bullet at the same time a taper crimp is being applied. Seating a cast bullet MUST be a discrete step after fully seating the bullet, otherwise you are compressing the case while the bullet is still being inserted downward. The results will be squeezed-down bullets and varying finished OALs. I do discrete steps with j-word bullet seating/taper crimping also.

FergusonTO35

03-15-2016, 02:16 PM

Now that I have my little Kel-Tec P32 back in my hot little hands after the factory replaced the barrel and slide I am reconsidering what I am going to feed it. I have done a fair amount of experimentation with stout, Ranch Dog style loads in the past but that is probably why it had to go back in the first place. I think something changed in the way the slide and barrel fit together, changing POI. In any event, the cavernous chamber with a huge unsupported area and thin .32 Auto brass is a very good reason to stay away from the hot stuff.

Previously I was carrying it with 2.1 grains Hodgdon Titewad under a 76 grain lead flat point, good for a measured 886 fps. Titewad is a very fast powder similar to Red Dot, and I think I am going to reserve it for practice loads. I'm currently thinking that a somewhat energetic FMJ, either factory or reload, might be the best choice here. Or, the Lyman 311252 or 313249 at 800 fps or so. Basically .32 S&W Long performance wise. I really love this pistol and actually shoot it alot. What say you?

Outpost75

03-15-2016, 02:34 PM

In my Beretta 3032 INOX and Walther PP I shoot 5.5 grains of Alliant #2400 with Accurate 31-087T. Use Winchester cases and Federal 200 primers at 0.95" OAL. Get 825 fps in the INOX Tomcat with 2.4" barrel, 939 fps in the Walther PP with 3.9" barrel. Snappy recoil and ejection, but ejected cases look "normal." YOUR mileage may vary, but the Beretta and Walther support the case well and I've run hundreds with no issues.

UPDATE Oct. 2016:

Beretta Tomcat eventually did fail and the frame cracked after about 2000 rounds of heavy bullet handloads.

FergusonTO35

03-15-2016, 06:26 PM

Good looking rounds there. I need to do some penetration testing with FMJ and boolits. I have an Accurate mold that makes sweet 76 grain flat point slugs, I just wonder if the big flat nose is going to limit penetration at modest velocity.

Outpost75

03-15-2016, 06:30 PM

Your Accurate bullet is almost identical to the one loaded by Buffalo Bore, which in gelatin out penetrates hardball because it continues straight and does not exhibit the 180-degree "flip" continuing base first, that Euro FMJ does.

Watch the videos!

Buffalo Bore 75-grain FN +P
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/06/buffalo-bore-32-acp-75-grain-hcfn.html

Sellier & Bellot 73-grain FMJRN
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/11/clear-gel-terminal-testing-sellier.html

FergusonTO35

03-15-2016, 06:45 PM

Wow, that is impressive! 900 fps = complete penetration through multiple layers of denim and 14.5" of gelatin.

9.3X62AL

03-15-2016, 08:15 PM

Looking to try Lyman #313249 in the place of Accurate's 31-087T. Your load has ~.180" of seat depth, so I need to do a Tale Of The Tape comparison with Lyman's Manual specs and gauge things out for this load of 2400 in my Walther PP. At Lyman's suggested OAL (whatever it is), #313249 fed very well for me using conventional weights of BE, 231, and Unique/WSP or CCI caps. Of course, I could also DO IT RIGHT and get the 31-087T mould. That is a superior design for the 32 ACP, and would be no slouch in 30 Mauser or 30 Luger as well.

FergusonTO35

03-16-2016, 08:54 AM

What are you guys sizing your .32 Auto slugs to? I was sizing to .313 as my previous barrel was loose as a goose. The new one is a lot tighter, I can see that just from pressing the nose of a boolit into the muzzle. I know factory FMJ is usually .309 or .311. Maybe try .311 first?

9.3X62AL

03-17-2016, 01:05 AM

Throat on my Walther PP is a "fat" .310", so I size bullets to .311"/confirmed. Cases are expanded with a .309" expander spud.

DW475

03-17-2016, 02:12 AM

After reading all the great info i'm glad I didn't pass on the Ruger Single Six in 32 H&R. It's accurate and seemed like it would be a good bunny buster!

FergusonTO35

03-17-2016, 08:39 AM

Last night I resized some of my 76 grain Accurate slugs to .311. They actually seated more easily in the cases than before at .313 and all passed the plunk test no problem. The pistol shoots .311 j-words quite well so I would think boolits would do even better. Loaded them up with 1.7 grains Titewad and Federal primers at .948 OAL, hope to try them out tonight.

FergusonTO35

03-20-2016, 01:06 PM

Well, my 76 grain slugs shoot just fine with Titewad and Bullseye, unfortunately the point of impact is 1-2" low whereas it is dead on with 71 grain FMJ. Rather odd that it is shooting lower with a heavier bullet, usually the opposite is true. I wonder if I should try a heavier bullet, maybe something around 85 grains? I really enjoy shooting this pistol and would hate to be stuck feeding it J words.

Earlwb

03-21-2016, 10:45 PM

My first handgun was a nondescript .32 S&W Long caliber one. I do not remember the brand, but it was more of a Saturday night special. That was many years ago though. I used to go rabbit hunting with it and it worked pretty well. A jack rabbit would drop right there when hit. But with a .22LR the jack rabbit would likely keep on going. Later I managed to get a target semi-auto pistol chambered for S&W .32 long. But it was designed for the wadcutter bullets. But it was sure a sweet shooter though. Someone talked me into selling it to them and I still regret it though. I now have a nice H&R revolver in .32 Mag, and it has a nice 7.5 inch barrel on it. It shoots better than I can.

Outpost75

05-22-2016, 01:32 PM

Accurate now lists 31-090B which is 0.5" long, with Buffalo Bore nose shape, 0.2" meplat, crimp groove 0.26" back from meplat for overall cartridge length 0.95" in .32 ACP brass.

SEE UPDATE WITH VELOCITY TEST DATA BELOW!

174956

Outpost75

06-10-2016, 10:50 PM

UPDATE August 21, 2016

.32 ACP TESTS

Ammunition _______________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”____Beretta M1935 3.4”

Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ_____________848, fps, 32 Sd________917 fps, 11 Sd
Buffalo Bore 75-grain LFN_________883, fps, 6 Sd_________997 fps, 7 Sd

Accurate 31-087T, 5.6 #2400______825 fps,15 Sd_________926 fps, 14 Sd
Accurate 31-090B, 5.2 #2400______821 fps, 23 Sd________878 fps, 20 Sd
Acc. 31-090B, 3.0 AutoComp____915 fps, 16 Sd______999 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 31-090B, 2.2 Bullseye________786 fps, 11 Sd________851 fps, 14 Sd

UPDATE OCT 2016

- Beretta Tomcat users beware that frame of my pistol cracked after about 2000 heavy loads!

STEEL FRAME Beretta M1935, Colt M1903 Type III, CZ27 and Walther PP continue on with them happily.

Outpost75

08-21-2016, 03:48 PM

See also:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?291374-32-ACP-quot-Balls-Up-quot-Serious-Loads-with-Accurate-31-087T

UPDATE 14 May 2017 - New bullet from Accurate for .32 ACP and 7.62x25mm:

195539

Texas by God

05-12-2017, 12:55 PM

I fell in love with the .32 as a child. A friend's dad had a bring back CZ 27 that he let us shoot. Then later a Ruger .32 mag, and a FN 1922. My current one is a surplus Walther PP 7.65 that is crazy accurate with Outpost's 95 gr flat noses. I'm going to try them on racoons this weekend. BIL is coming in from California so he will want to burn up some ammo!
Best, Thomas.

Outpost75

05-12-2017, 01:02 PM

... My current one is a surplus Walther PP 7.65 that is crazy accurate with Outpost's 95 gr flat noses...

For those unfamiliar, this is the Accurate 31-095T which Thomas is talking about and it feeds reliably in the Walther PP, Colt M1903 and Beretta M1935. Gets 870 fps with 5.2 grains of Alliant #2400 from 3.4" barrel and 900 fps with 2 grains of TiteGroup or 3 grains of AutoComp.

195346

9.3X62AL

05-14-2017, 01:21 AM

380 bullet weight and velocity, bluff front, and better sectional density. VERY interesting.

Outpost--do you think it is advisable to replace recoil and/or firing pin springs in a Walther PP in 32 ACP to 380 ACP springs? I don't want to beat this little gem up if avoidable.

Outpost75

05-14-2017, 01:55 PM

... Outpost--do you think it is advisable to replace recoil and/or firing pin springs in a Walther PP in 32 ACP to 380 ACP springs? I don't want to beat this little gem up if avoidable.

Absolutely! I have with mine!!!!

Colt M1903 .32 to M1908 .380 spring kit
PP 7.65 to 9mm Kurtz spring kit
Beretta M1935 to M1934 spring kit...

Outpost75

05-26-2017, 11:52 AM

As FYI, new to the Accurate catalog is 31-105T. This is a double-crimp-groove design intended for use in the .32 S&W Long, .32 H&R Magnum and .32-20 Win. Use the rear crimp groove for the .32 S&W Long, and the front crimp groove fr .32 H&R Magnum and .32-20.

201721

Outpost75

09-09-2019, 11:25 AM

New bullet from Accurate which is suitable either for .32 S&W Long revolvers or as a heavy bullet in .32 ACP. Also useable in the .30 Luger and 7.62x25. Took nose shape of 31-087T with conventional lube groove, bevel base and crimp groove of 31-090B, and

31-094H is the result:

248058

Concept based on old Walt Melander #082, no longer available, but with Tom Ellis improvements. Blunt shape for good crush, smooth profile for reliable feeding in Euro military pistols which are fussy with anything other than hardball. Deep penetration with no "flip."

Gets 940 fps from the 3.8" barrel Beretta 81 double-stacker with 2 grains of TiteGroup, approximating .380 ACP energy and penetration from a .32 ACP.

EMC45

09-10-2019, 09:40 AM

Outpost75

03-06-2020, 12:24 AM

Expansion test of Beretta 81 .32 ACP with 3.8 inch barrel firing 100-grain .312" diameter Hornady XTP bullet in Starline case, Rem. 1-1/2 primer, 3 grains AutoComp, OAL 0.955," velocity 940 fps. Blew first water jug apart. Penetrated straight through others, sticking in back side of 4th jug.

258078258079

258080

+P+ Load DO NOT USE in Beretta 3032 Tomcat or Keltec!!!!

258081

Same charge of 3 grains AutoComp, but firing in 3.4" Beretta M1935, at left Hornady 90-grain XTP .309" (no cannelure), and at right .312" 85-grain Hornady XTP .312" (identifiable by knurl). Use the .312" diameter bullets ONLY if the barrel of your .32 ACP handgun slugs larger than .310". Otherwise use the .309" diameter, 90-grain XTP.

These loads approximate .380 ACP bullet weight and velocity from a .32 ACP of similar barrel length and should be considered +P for serious social purposes only, and not for casual practice or training use if you want your light alloy frame pistol to last. They are fine in the WW2-era steel frame holster pistols such as the Colt M1903, CZ27, CZ50, Beretta M1935, Walther PP.

Outpost75

03-06-2020, 12:36 AM

Appologies to folks unable to see the attachments.

I exceeded my photo quota on the site and had to delete older pics to make room.

If you go to the Accurate molds web site, search for the mold ID number, you can view the bullets drawings.

Crow_Eater

04-29-2020, 07:37 PM

I'm running the same loads in both my CZ (Yugoslavian) single-action .32 ACP as well as my Tanfoglio of Italy "Titan." The latter is a wonderfully accurate pistol, and a lot of fun to boot. Even with the Fiocchi ammunition, they generate lower recoil and plenty of "grunt" for the bullet weight.

Love those little S/A .32 pistols!

Scott

I have a Tanfoglio .32 my own self. Mine is also quite an accurate pistol, and so far has digested every kind of ammo I've fed it, including the Fiocchi 60gr JHP.
The only issue is all the damn safeties (4 at last count). Hopeless to get into action in a hurry, unless you carry it cocked with the firing pin safety on. No thanks.
Other than being a non-starter for a carry pistol, great little gun, though.

Crow_Eater

04-29-2020, 08:02 PM

The .32 ACP can be fired in a revolver chambered for the .32 H&R Magnum or .327 Federal Magnum.

I know I'm probably kicking the hornets' nest, but guys...I wish people would quit saying this. Good factory ammo for the .32 S&W Long, .32 H&R Mag and .327 is currently being loaded -- and brass is available to us to explore our own loads for S&W, S&W Long, H&R and Fed Mag (which I do).
Let's leave the .32 ACP for the autoloader guys (of which I am also one) to shoot (and load).

Outpost75

04-30-2020, 04:46 PM

Firing .32 ACP in the longer chamber results in substantial gas loss around the bullet with resultant velocity loss which risks lodging a jacketed bullet in the barrel. Even if the bullet exits the bore OK, the semi-rim of the .32 ACP is much thinner than the rim of the .32 S&W, H&R Mag. etc.

Also the diameter of the .32 ACP case head is smaller than the firing pin bushing on Colt and S&W revolvers so that the .32 ACP case pistoning back against the firing pin bushing will eventually peen and loosen the bushing, necessitating an expensive repair. We used to charge $100 to fix them.

Bottom there is no good reason to do it.

onelight

04-30-2020, 06:35 PM

Outposts test is some impressive performance from a 32 auto. Who'd a thought a 32 auto would perform like that.:drinks:

Keithdvm

05-10-2020, 01:42 PM

Green Frog

05-17-2020, 11:55 AM

If you have an old set of 30-06 dies you aren’t too fond of, you can cut the bottom inch off of the seater/crimped die of that to use... after all, you are making a 30 cal out of your case anyway.

Froggie

MEB

05-18-2020, 12:02 PM

Lee has/had a 32 acp undersize sizing die. I have one. If they don't make any more you can have it made custom, the last time I had a custom sizing die made, it was about $70 plus shipping.

Alferd Packer

05-18-2020, 04:55 PM

I have both .32 revolvers and .32 autos.
I too recommend that you do not shoot loaded .32 acp shells in your revolvers.
But, if you possess some .32 acp shells and only have a .32 revolver, you could use them to shoot wax or plastic glue bullets that only need to be primer powered to use.

Primer powered, the .32 acp shells won't harm anything.
These days, it is many times hard to find anything to shoot in the .32 revolvers.
I grew up saving and using anything, before throwing it away.
My parents grew up in the depression and passed their ways of thinking to me.

Outpost75

05-19-2020, 12:13 PM

Having experimented with a few of the loads suggested here I was testing whether or not I could load the Hornady .309 XTP. I find that the Lyman dies I have do not sufficiently size the case small enough to load a .309 bullet. What have others found that work for this combination.

My older RCBS carbide dies work just fine with Starline, RWS or Fiocchi brass to load either the .309" diameter 90-grain Hornady XTP or the 93-grain .308" diameter Remington FMJ bullets intended for the .30 Luger.

Outpost75

05-19-2020, 05:02 PM

I am surprised to see such uniform expansion of the .312'' XTP at 940 fps. Hornady has it together IMO.

Did you happen to obtain its average expanded diameter perchance?

Ranged from .39-.42 for the several I recovered.

onelight

05-19-2020, 08:32 PM

Outpost75

05-19-2020, 09:24 PM

Just got a special .32 acp
I am not sure if these are called 1935 or 1934 but it is a 7.65 and 1951 is stamped on it.
A really good friend was a detective and he got this used sometime in the 1950's for a back up or smaller carry gun he retired in 1977 and has kept it all these years .He has a lot of nice guns but could not have given me one that I would enjoy than this one.
He is a great shot and a fine man and I will treasure this little 32 as long as I live.
He also provided a bunch of factory loads for it, how nice was that!

The .32 ACP is the Model 1935. These were imported by Stoeger and others until the GCA 1968 and were indeed popular as backup and deep carry guns. They were also very widely used by municipal police in Italy into the 1970s. Post WW2 Beretta made this model in both in a steel frame and in a light alloy aluminum frame. Here is my light alloy frequent carry:

262422

Yours looks to be the steel frame version, which is a more rugged gun if you wish to experiment with some of the heavier .32 ACP loads I have posted, but you appear well supplied with factory FMJ which will serve you well. The Fiocchi ammo is quite good.

onelight

05-19-2020, 10:39 PM

Your right Outpost it is all steel quite a little chunk.
It's nice to hear it will stand up to some of your stiff loads.

pettypace

05-30-2020, 07:16 PM

I recently told a friend (who actually carries a .32 acp) about Outpost75's kick-butt .32 acp loads (see post #85 above). But I was politely informed that "Silvertips will do everything you'll ever need." Today I had a chance to test that claim.

I fired a .32 acp Silvertip from a Walther PP over the chrongraph, through a water-filled half-gallon milk carton, and into a garbage bag stuffed with old pillows. The chronograph registered 948 ft/s and the recovered bullet had mushroomed perfectly to about 0.51" as shown below.

262969

All that nice, symmetric expansion is pretty impressive until you run the numbers for the meat and potatoes. Here are graphs of predicted penetration and wound mass for the .32 acp Silvertip:

262970

And here's the predicted penetration and wound mass for one of Outpost75's loads:

262971

Outpost75

05-30-2020, 07:42 PM

... And here's the predicted penetration and wound mass for one of Outpost75's loads:

262971

I would be very interested to see comparisons of predictions for non-expanding, full-hemispherical nosed FMJRN and ogival flatnosed hard-cast bullets all launched at similar velocity, assuming approximately 940 fps with 3 grains of AutoComp when fired from the Beretta 81 with 3.8" barrel:

93-grain Remington .308" FMJ, (.30 Luger bullet) with full-radius blunt hemispherical nose profile.
In water-jug tests does not "flip" but perforates in a straight line with no sign of tumbling and exits a 1 metre stack of water jugs. Also perforates/exits car door broadside with window rolled down.

Cast bullet of similar profile and weight to .30 Luger FMJ is Accurate 31-094H
262978

262973 90-grain ogival flatnose of profile similar to Buffalo Bore having a meplat diameter of 0.20", producing 30-40 inches of water jug penetration with no yaw.

262972 95-grain ogival wadcutter flatnose having a meplat diameter of 0.25", producing 30 inches of water jug penetration with no yaw. Most blunt profile which feeds reliably in Colt M1903 Pocket, Beretta M1935, CZ27 and Beretta 81. Also bullet of choice for .32 S&W Long revolvers in standard pressure loads.

onelight

05-30-2020, 08:29 PM

You guys may have seen this but here are some gel tests with 32 auto.

Outpost75

05-30-2020, 09:56 PM

You guys may have seen this but here are some gel tests with 32 auto.

Your link didn't come through, so here are some others I've bookmarked:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/#32ACP

https://rangehot.com/32-automatic-ballistic-test/

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/32%20ACP/32%20ACP.html

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/11/clear-gel-terminal-testing-sellier.html

https://general-cartridge.com/category/32-acp/

If anyone has additional .32 ACP gel test links beyond these, please post them!

pettypace

05-30-2020, 10:57 PM

I would be very interested to see comparisons of predictions for non-expanding, full-hemispherical nosed FMJRN and ogival flatnosed hard-cast bullets all launched at similar velocity, assuming approximately 940 fps with 3 grains of AutoComp when fired from the Beretta 81 with 3.8" barrel:

The Schwartz can speak to this question with more knowledge and authority. He's actually built a predictive penetration model. I just tinker with them.

The models of both Schwartz and MacPherson use different parameters for different nose shapes -- wadcutters, round nose, truncated cone, semi-wadcutter, conical, round ball, and expanded hollow points. But beyond these broad categories, there's no fine distinctions between, say, a full-hemispherical nosed FMJRN and a "pointier" bullet like the Luger FMJRN, or between a SWC like the H&G 68 and a Keith style SWC.

Given that, about the best I could do is plug in the same diameter (say, 0.31"), weight (95 grains), and velocity (940 ft/s) with each of those general nose shape parameters. The penetration equation I'm using has been tuned to more or less match MacPherson's curves. The Schwartz Q-model would predict slightly different penetrations. So, here goes...

Wadcutter:

262980

Truncated Cone:

262981

Semi-Wadcutter:

262982

Round-Nose:

262983

Expanded JPH:

262984

The most thought-provoking of these is the last one, for the expanded JHP. It's unusual to use the expanded JHP nose parameter without having some "expanded" diameter to go with it. In that case, the expanded diameter lowers the predicted penetration. But when you keep the unexpanded diameter, as I have above, the model predicts more penetration than any other nose shape would give with same weight and velocity. Is that predicted extra penetration real? Or just a mathematical curiosity? I don't know the answer to that. But I have wondered whether something like that Accurate 31-095T might be the magic shape to give the crush of a wadcutter with the full penetration of a truncated cone.

I'm thinking it will take some actual gel testing to sort this out.

Outpost75

06-03-2020, 05:13 PM

Thanks for posting the additional explanations. Lots of info to chew on for a long time.

jonp

06-03-2020, 05:56 PM

Great article. I was the first Treasurer of our Universities chapter of The Wildlife Society when it was formed and the first Committee Chairman.

Wayne Dobbs

06-04-2020, 10:18 AM

Thanks for posting the additional explanations. Lots of info to chew on for a long time.

Outpost75,

Is there an equivalent .380 ogival wadcutter available?

Outpost75

06-04-2020, 12:17 PM

Outpost75,

Is there an equivalent .380 ogival wadcutter available?

These are the bullets I use in the .380 ACP, velocity is 760 fps with 2.5 grains of Bullseye from the Ruger LCP, and 830 fps in the SIG P230. The blunt, heavy bullets give straight-through deep penetration 30 inches+ in water jugs, with no "flip."

263146263147
.380 ACP 122-grain FN at 760 fps from Ruger LCP, using the SWC form factor rather than RN.
263150

pettypace

06-04-2020, 09:29 PM

How about a .380 equivalent of this one?

263176

263175

Crow_Eater

06-05-2020, 03:54 AM

Just some gun porn.
Clockwise from 1 o'clock - a Model 31 4" S&W Long, a 90s Model 16-4 4" H&R Magnum K-frame, a Davis Industries D-32 .32 ACP derringer, a Tanfoglio EA-32 .32 ACP, and a pre-1974 Charter Arms Undercoverette in .32 S&W Long.
The Model 31 has a Safariland plastic grip with a nice palm swell, the Model 16 factory wooden grips from a Model 66. The D-32 is a brutal little kicker, and at 20 feet, the two barrels make two 3" groups about 10" apart. The Tanfoglio is a very accurate pistol capable of consistent X-ring accuracy at 25 yds with Fiocchi FMJ ammo (no kidding). The Undercoverette has an old aluminum Tyler T-Grip made for a J-frame Smith, which pretty much fits it; sights are much better than the M-31.263191263192
In 1913 my grandfather was going to be sent to the Amazon rainforest to buy rubber from the plantations there for an American rubber company. His associates didn't think he should be sent there without some means of defending himself, so as a joke, they bought him the revolver in the bottom photo. It's a 5-shot 3" .32 S&W Hammerless (internal hammer) ie, a lemon squeezer (note grip safety). I think it went for the princely sum of $3.50 at the time. The trip ended up being cancelled, but he kept the gun. When my father was in North Africa and Italy in WW2, my mother kept it for protection. When I was a kid on rare occasions I was allowed to handle it, unloaded of course. As near as we can tell it has never been fired.
That tiny little pistol is the reason I am still fascinated by .32 handguns to this day.

Outpost75

06-05-2020, 10:47 AM

Outpost75

06-05-2020, 11:15 AM

How about a .380 equivalent of this one?

263176

263175

Only heavy-bullet .380 ACP jacketed load which I found that expanded from a short-barrel pistol like the Ruger LCP is the Remington 102-grain Golden Saber Ultimate Defense.

263213263212

Problem with jacketed bullets is their greater bore drag limits potential velocity attainable within safe pressures. My experience has been that .380 jacketed bullets which are fragile enough to expand from a short barrel like the Ruger LCP fail to reach the desired 12 inches of penetration. Most bullets over 100 grains are of stouter construction to withstand higher velocity from the 9mm Parabellum. A lubricated-lead bullet is "slicker" and more forgiving. I spent many hours trying to come up with a cast bullet load which would work, but with mixed results, so concentrated by efforts on heavy, blunt solids. Here is a graph of the Accurate 35-122 bullet hollow-pointed and shot from the Ruger LCP.

263210263206263207263211

Outpost75

06-05-2020, 01:38 PM

OK, so help me out here... :veryconfu

I see a table of test data that expresses penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin (assuming it is not the clear ballistics stuff?) and water jugs (in attached thumbnails) used to test these rounds? Are you actually testing in 10% ordnance gelatin or converting water test results to their equivalent using a model? If using a model to convert water test data, which one are you using?

I'm using an evaluation copy of a program obtained from Pettypace, plugging in my water expansion values and chronographed velocity. The waterjug penetration figures don't enter into it it except for curiosity as I'm using the water only to measure expansion.

pettypace

06-06-2020, 12:10 PM

... Are you actually testing in 10% ordnance gelatin or converting water test results to their equivalent using a model? If using a model to convert water test data, which one are you using?

Chuck: The "model" behind the blue and red graphs is the same as you and I discussed via PMs about a month ago -- a simplified THOR equation with parameters "tuned" (with Gnuplot's "fit" function) to MacPherson's penetration graphs.

I use the term "model" cautiously. As a well-established Enrico Fermi once told the up-and-coming Freeman Dyson: "I'm not very impressed with what you've been doing... Either you should have a clear physical model in mind, or you should have a rigorous mathematical basis. You have neither." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV41QEKiMlM) Like Dyson, I have neither.

On the other hand, when Dyson persisted, pointing out the close agreement between his mathematical plots and Fermi's experimental data, Fermi quoted the famous mathematician John von Neumann as saying that "With four parameters I can fit an elephant and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk." Bullet penetration graphs are easier to "fit" than elephants, even without their wiggling trunks.

The blue and red graphs give a reasonable "fit" to MacPherson's experimental data. Fermi wouldn't have been impressed, but I think they're good enough to show, for example, that in the absence of barriers, Outpost75's "kick-butt" .32 ACP JHP load...

263269

...should be every bit as effective for civilian self-defense as the .38 Special Federal Gold Medal wadcutters Brassfetcher tested here (http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html):

263276

Crow_Eater

06-06-2020, 10:36 PM

Crow Eater, you really should gently shoot that S&W Lemon Squeezer and report back to us. Factory loads would be best, but if you are already set to load .32 ACP you could load your .32 ACP lead bullets in .32 S&W cases with about 1.5 grains of Bullseye. A target fired double-action at 7 yards holding center-of-mass on a silhouette would tell the tale. Please!@

Sorry all, but never going to happen. It's a heirloom and as far as the family is concerned, priceless. You can see it's in near-new condition.
Some years back I did load some ammo for it, or guns like it, based on Ken Waters' Pet Loads article from May 1992. I loaded the Hornady 90 gr LSWC over 2.2 gr of AA-5 (his best load for older guns), over 1.7 gr of SR-7625 (second best), and over 1.4 gr of AA-2 Imp. Push come to shove I could not bring myself to risk the old thing, tempted though I was.
BTW, he listed 1.3 gr of Bullseye as maximum for these older guns; I would not have gone higher. I also found a fragment of an old Lyman manual listing the 77 gr cast LRN (#311252) over 1.4 gr of Red Dot as a possible load for these guns. I have most of a box of the RP 88 gr LRN factory load sitting around also.
If I were to come across a similar revolver I would definitely try these loads in it. But not my grandfather's.
263334

Crow_Eater

06-06-2020, 10:49 PM

All that nice, symmetric expansion is pretty impressive until you run the numbers for the meat and potatoes. :

Not to troll you, but the .32 Silvertip did pretty well in actual shootings, based on Even Marshall's information in _ "Stopping Power_ . From his data, the STHP was effective about 59% out of a sample size of 61 documented incidents.
That compared to about 50% for standard FMJ, with 96 total cases.
FWIW. At least it is actual data.

35remington

06-07-2020, 02:28 AM

Marshall and Sanow’s data was controversial to say the least. It is rather a flash point and provokes considerable discussion about the validity of their information.

The “percentages of stops” are particularly doubted in some circles if not most of them these days. The “actual data” part is debated.

For whatever that’s worth.

Crow_Eater

06-07-2020, 06:37 AM

I followed the evolution of Marshall's writing, as well as the criticisms of it, for several years before that book was published. His book didn't come out of nowhere, and it wasn't put together in a day. It seemed to me a lot of the criticism of it was from people who did not understand his method or assumptions (which he made very clear) -- or possibly had not even read much of it, ie was based on hearsay. If there is a more definitive study from anyone I'd be pleased to be directed to it (I've read U. W. Patrick's "Handgun Effectiveness" lecture, which is nowhere near as comprehensive or rigorous).
I don't intend to either hijack this thread or open up this whole topic, which in general very quickly devolves into people arguing their opinions, mostly based on little or no experience, and which has already run 33 or so tedious and repetitive pages on another thread (see above).

35remington

06-07-2020, 12:24 PM

The contentious part was awarding high “stopping percentages” to certain calibers while using a screening of data that appeared to unrealistically influence what data was included and what was not.

You will notice that those who discuss the topic today avoid mentioning certainty in areas where certainty cannot be found. M and S discussed “stopping percentages” as if they were more confident in the validity of their data than was justified, which was certainly the case.

35remington

06-07-2020, 12:30 PM

Here’s an alternative that attempts to include things M and S clearly missed. Note the outrageously high percentage of “one shot stops” that M and S promulgate is clearly refuted. This seems a lot more believable.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Crow_Eater

06-07-2020, 04:19 PM

Yeah I've read this too. I don't think this is the thread to discuss this though, so I won't. Thanks for the link.

Outpost75

06-07-2020, 05:34 PM

My biggest problem with Marshall and Sanow is that they won't share their data with anyone. "Just trust us". Right. I've read all of their books, and the numbers are WAY too consistent to be real. None of their work has been peer viewed. A number of sources they quoted have publicly stated that M&S either misquoted them or never contacted them at all. The only conclusion I can come to is that their work is a hoax and a fraud.

Duncan Macpherson is a respected scientist who in 1976 published "Relative Incapacitation BULListics," which analyzed and detailed the fatal flaws in the now infamous Relative Incapacitation Index (RII). The National Institute of Justice NIJ, originator of the RII rating scheme, disregarded MacPherson's well-founded criticisms at the time. Then in 1986, street experience (in the Miami shootout) proved that MacPherson was correct when he wrote that RII was seriously flawed.

The Late Col. Martin L. Fackler, MC, USA served as a combat surgeon in Vietnam and was the first to calibrate gelatin test firings against live animal tissue.

His methodology formed the basis for the FBI test criteria used today.

Crow_Eater

06-08-2020, 03:34 AM

I followed Marshall back in the 80s and his numbers did change over time, ending up with the publication of their book. Sanow I always had less faith in, but he may have been part of the book deal.
If they were frauds, of which I am not convinced, like I said, point me to someone who did a better job. And the FBI, at least what I've read (or possibly what is publicly available), despite their money and resources, is not it.
I did not intend to hijack this thread. Contact me if you want to discuss privately, but I'm out here.

Outpost75

06-08-2020, 12:12 PM

No need to discuss. I worked during that period as a consultant to the FBI Firearms Unit and also APG and Letterman and know the background and history. The M&S work would NEVER pass muster for publication by any peer-reviewed technical journal and I consider the matter closed.

pettypace

06-29-2020, 07:50 AM

Fortunately, we don't have to reach consensus on the work of Marshall & Sanow in order to continue study of the sometimes under-appreciated virtues of the .32 ACP.

Here's how the .32 ACP Silvertip performed in my "extensive" (2 shots from a Walther PP) testing:

264194

The bullet in the middle was expanded to about a half inch diameter by the water in a half gallon milk jug. The bullet on the right went through four layers of well-worn denim before hitting the water and didn't expand at all.

My testing setup is probably similar to what the FBI uses:

264195

Under the shower curtain are a couple cardboard boxes filled with polyester pillow stuffing. The shower curtain just keeps the boxes and stuffing from getting soaked.

NOTE: Some bullets penetrate more pillow stuffing than others. The fully-expanded .32 only made it a few inches into the first box. The unexpanded .32 made it half way through the second box. And an energetic Keith HP from my buddy's 38-44 Heavy Duty scattered a trail of pillow stuffing extending 50 yards down range and was not recovered.

I'd like to see how that 100 grain XTP from Outpost75's kick-butt load handles the denim barrier. I think I've seen a youtube clip where a .380 XTP pretty much ignored the denim and expanded as designed. I'll see if I can find that.

Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O15fRBdo-38

Combat Diver

12-27-2022, 12:48 PM

Been reloading for my CZ50 for decades. Just ordered a Ruger Single Six .32 H&R Mag 4.6". Got a Lee 90 gr TLSWC with the intent for galley loads for my .303 MLE and also for the handguns.

Alferd Packer

03-14-2023, 04:15 AM

Reviving this thread, I read all comments again and I am a fan of the .32s penetration with a hard round nose bullet.
Don't look for expansion, but I believe it is ahead of the .380 in penetration all else being equal.
The .380 also penetrates better withhardball, but the .32 hardball heart shot or maybe even head shot may be better.
I likes .32 pistols. Regardless.
I also like the comments posted on here.

FergusonTO35

06-26-2023, 09:55 AM

I have two Kel-Tec P32's and I like them very much. Both of them function 100%. The first one is dead on, and I feed it 78 grain flat nose pills from Accurate Molds over 1.9 grains Titewad for 815 fps and excellent accuracy. I deactivated the LRHO feature on this one because the fat nose lead slugs can cause it lock open. The other was shooting low and to the right, which I verified with reloads and factory 71 grain FMJ. Sent it off to Kel-Tec. They had it for about a month, sent it back to me with a new barrel. Took it for a test drive last night with CCI FMJ. Very pleased to see it is now consistently dead on or a little bit high at 7 yards, just how I like it. Love these little pocket rockets, much more so than the micro .380's. Carrying one right now in fact. The P32 is one of my top 3 CCW guns, along with the S&W 637 and Glock 42. I shoot all of them really well, and they are reliable and easy to carry.

Tall

06-27-2023, 11:11 PM

I used to have an FN Browning Model 1922 in 32 ACP. It was a great pistol. Had Nazi proof marks. Lost it in a burglary.

Outpost75

08-18-2023, 09:21 PM

Question for the group.

I understand that most fanciers of the .32 revolvers favor the 3"-4" barrels for higher velocity and longer sight radius.

However I have recently been tinkering with a 1-7/8" Model 30-1 which I have refitted a "long" +0.005" cylinder to, so that it now has a minimum barrel-cylinder gap of pass 0.003" and hold 0.004", compared to 0.008/ 0.009 as built. It now produces velocities exceeding my 3-inch Model 30-1 having B-C gap of 0.005 pass and 0.006" hold.

I would love to see velocity data from others who have chronographed either factory lead ammo, or a full charge, standard pressure handload, such as any 90-100 grain lead bullet with 2.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup.

Snubby data would be interesting, but if all you have is a longer barrel, measure B-C gap and post what you've got.

I'm looking at 850 fps with Accurate 31-109D with 2.5 grains of Bullseye from the min. tight tapped snubby. Does same in 3" Model 30-1 with 0.006 gap or 4" Colt Police Positive with 0.008" gap.

317166

My choice for ogival wadcutter in the .32 S&W Long.

Tall

08-19-2023, 12:17 PM

Question for the group.

I understand that most fanciers of the .32 revolvers favor the 3"-4" barrels for higher velocity and longer sight radius.

Mine all have 6" barrels. I like a load of 2.5 grains of Unique and a 110 grain powder coated LSWC from Jerry's down the street. It punches fine holes in the paper when I go to the range.

https://reloadammo.com/32-s-w-long-reloading-data/

Walks

08-20-2023, 02:36 AM

I've been following this thread since I found this website. Probably posted a time or two.
I have a pair of .32ACP's; a french made PP and a Savage 1907. Both are a great deal of fun and pretty good shooters. While I've never taken game with .32cal Pistol, I've taken a bunny and Squirrel or 3 with a 5" Colt Police Positive and a 5 1/2" Ruger SSM. We'll bypass the .32H&R Derringer and Grandma's S&W LemonSqueezer in .32Short & Wimpy.
The little Colt will group in about 2"+ at 50ft.
The Rger a bit better.
I love them all, I just wish I'd gotten My hands on Dad's Colt 1903's( 1 each) and Browning 1922.

Mk42gunner

08-22-2023, 12:47 AM