Invest in a cast friendly AR upper, or swaging dies?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I just became the proud owner of an AR and have come to realize how expensive it will be feeding it factory j-words. I have come up with two possible solutions.

1) Buy 22lr to 22CF swaging dies and go to town making my own j-words.

2) Invest in a new upper that is chambered in a more cast friendly caliber. I have the 300 whisper/blackout in mind but would be open to suggestions.

[sparky45]

I went with the 300 Blackout and am in the process of working out a load with a cast boolit. Right now I have a 311414 and next Tuesday should have the NOE 311365. One in ~150gr and the other ~ 200gr. The real problem is finding a load for these boolits and to be able to get them to cycle the action when switching to sub-sonic loads.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

The 300 looks to be an almost perfect cast boolit round with its small case capacity, big heavy boolit, and low velocity. The only problem would appear to be the chance that the lube could migrate into the powder do to the short neck and deep seated boolit, any thoughts on this?

[scb]

The only problem would appear to be the chance that the lube could migrate into the powder do to the short neck and deep seated boolit, any thoughts on this?

That's why this one was designed as it was.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/1111-134-311247GrFNWhisperCart.jpg
311247 original discussion---> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=102160&highlight=311247

If you think you might want a lighter boolit/bullet take a look at the 7.62 x 40 Wilson Tactical. I've been shooting the 7.62 x 40 more than the 300 Whisper since I got it.

http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr236/scb2008/006.jpg

[alrighty]

I was trying to decide what to do myself and here is what I have decided.I am going to buy a .300 for a fun cast boolit gun.I have signed up for the group buy mold going on now.I would love to have a swaging setup for the .223 but for now I can buy the pulled military surplus j words in both 55gr and 62gr cheap.

[oldsgm]

You can shoot cast out of an AR upper if your so inclined. I run RCBS 55 grain spire points over 22 grains of WW-748. I completed a 500 round cast bullet test, and found I only had minor leading on the bolt and accuracy (only tested at 25 yards though), didn't change significantly during the course of the test. I fired 500 rounds without cleaning the gun to test functionality of using cast bullets in an AR.

[GabbyM]

I like the 6 x 45mm in concept. Easy case forming and 6mm bullets I cast for my 243 Win are about as easy to make as 30 caliber but still easy on the lead supply.
Unless you need a heavy bullet or are looking at suppressed guns.
With a 1-12” twist barrel they will shoot the 80 grain Speer flat base spitzer soft point to almost 3,000 fps. 25-223 would be another interesting round. A 25 caliber with a 1-14” twist would probably make the better cast bullet shooter and small game round.
If you like longer necks you can push the shoulder back on surplus 223 brass and make a 6-222 or 25-222. Plenty of case capacity for cast bullets.

For a while I thought about making a 6x45mm bolt gun but my 243’s shot so well there didn’t seam to be any point in it. Not enough for another $600 rifle anyways. Kind of liek me buying a Winchester 94 in 30-30 last week puts a cimp on rationalizing a 300 blackout AR in a state that does not allow surpressors.

[xacex]

Blackout! I like the idea of saving .22 casing, but it is a lot of work to turn them into bullets. Never mind the cost because they are about the same.In fact the blackout upper can be built for less I believe.
Nevermind, It will cost a little more for the 300, but it is worth it in my opinion.

[runfiverun]

i have thought about this one for a day or so now.
i bought a second ar just to build [have built] a 300 aac upper and i was gonna use the rcbs 165 silh boolit pushed hard [1900 fps] in a 10 twist bbl.
but have ended up swaging for it. [shrugs] somehow littlegirl got involved with this gun, so i'll probably end up with a third one to try again with.
the first is an armalite m-15 n.m. and it isn't getting changed.

[paul h]

I'm curious how many rounds you plan to run it to where swaging becomes cost effective. Midsouth varmint nightmare bullets are still fairly reasonably priced, and if you put any value on your labor, you'll be in the 5-10,000 range before you break even.

I don't have a problem buying bullet molds when they pay for themselves within several hundred bullets, and I can taylor them to my guns. But with 22 caliber j-bullets, I just don't see the economy.

[Moonie]

I use cast in 5.56 uppers, what's the issue?

[runfiverun]

it's not always about cost effictiveness.
i always have a supply of 22 jaxkets,and i can tailor the same 60 [whatever] bullet to make it do what i want.
soft and explosive for ground squirells.
change the annealing ,bond the core,add a canellure,add a two part core,trim the jaxket, and i have a 50-75 gr bullet for bigger stuff.
i still shoot cast in the 22's mostly the 22-250 and my bolt gun 223
and both cast and swaged in the 220 swift at fast 223 velocities.
it's just another choice in ammo,and i don't have to buy gas checks.

[popper]

sparky45 - adjustable gas block!. Lube isn't a problem in 308 so 300 should be OK. You don't have to run them subsonic.

[Moonie]

sparky45 - adjustable gas block!. Lube isn't a problem in 308 so 300 should be OK. You don't have to run them subsonic.

Why do you need an adjustable gas block? The 300AAC Blackout was designed to shoot supersonic lighter weight boolits and subsonic 200gr+ boolits without needing an adjustable gas block. This isn't a 300 Whisper we are talking about (which does require an adjustable gas block to do the same thing due to gas port size differences)

[ckcadavona]

It depends on your intentions but as already stated you can shoot boolits in either cartridge. Do some searching on .223 twist rates and the 300BLK is obviously cast friendly with a plethora of options from 130-250gr!

[RU shooter]

I would and did go with the 300 blk. especially if you already cast for 30 cal . seems like its alot less work to cut down 223 brass. I'l be shooting mine by the weekend I just got the email that my 12 twist barrel is finally done:D

[xacex]

I use cast in 5.56 uppers, what's the issue?

I tried to imitate your load for the bator, but it wouldn't cycle in a real dissapator, and it wouldn't hit a gallon milk jug at a 100 yards. Not your fault, but the 300 blackout worked better for me. I still have hopes of building a 1/12 twist AR in 5.56 to try it again, but until then my bator mold is used for slugs for soft points. To your credit I did give some to a neighbor with a 1/9 twist carbine, and they cycled fine, but still couldn't hit a milk jug at 100 yards. Maybe I just suck at putting on those little gas checks.

xacex

[johnly]

Haven't gotten around to shooting cast in my 6.8 SPC upper, but my Colt 7.62x39 upper is good for 2 MOA at 100 yds using a simple red dot sight. With ~150 grain cast bullets start at 13 gr. of 2400 and adjust the load to provide reliable cycling without pitching the brass across the field.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Well I decided to go with a set of 22cal swage dies from BTSniper here on the forum.

I chose to go with swage dies for several reasons. First of all I really like the 223, and reforming a bunch of 223 brass to a 30cal of some sort did not appeal to me. Second I have other 22CFs that have been shot very little because of the cost of factory j-words, hopefully swaging shall remedy this fact. Lastly I simply wanted to give swaging a try because it is something I have not done before and looks like a lot of fun.

I'll have to post a follow up thread once my swage dies arive and I start load development.

[Lawyerman]

I think you made the right call. I know it's heresy but .22 cast at 3000 fps just isn't very practical for MOST reloaders. Add in a semi auto rifle etc....and it's just too much to monkey with and trouble shoot when the solution is right in front of you.

[Tracy]

I shoot cast in a 1:9 twist, 5.56 chambered AR. Lyman #225415 (55 grain version) of wheelweights, air cooled, sized .225", over 1cc (IIRC ~16 grains) pulldown wc820. I haven't chrono'd it but I would guess 2000-2100 fps, and it shoots great and cycles the action with a 16" barrel and carbine-length gas.
One of these days I plan to build one with 1:12" twist and preferably a .223 Remington chamber, probably with a 20" lightweight barrel and carbine-length or shorter gas and an adjustable gas block, specifically for cast. I like using only a little bit of lead and powder per shot. And with the 1:12 twist it should retain its accuracy to 2500 fps or better, even with cheap alloy.

Of course, the real answer to your question is: get both!

[Good Cheer]

Why not make your own cartridge design to suit cast? You can always shoot jacketed in it when the mood strikes.

[Artful]

If you want to shoot 223 and other 22 CF then swaging is the way -
I have both 300/221 fireball (aka 300 blk/whisper) and 223 uppers
and if you want another upper later on you can always add it.

Be aware the 22LR jackets are thin and explosive making great varmint bullets but not for
trying on large game (deer) IMHO - I have a mold for casting cores and you'll want
to start segregating your soft lead from harder stuff.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I went with the 300 BLK because I was more interested in heavy cast boolits subsonic. I also went with a YHM Cobra II in 9mm to use with it. It seems odd to pull the trigger and hear that "Boing" sound when the buffer hits the end of the buffer tube. YHM says the suppressor is good for 35db reduction.

With the 311247 at 1070fps in my AR-pistol it is like having a 30-round 44 mag semi.

some days are just tooooooooooooo much fun.

Rich
Sua Sponte

[HMC710]

Hey All,
I have run cast through all my AR's with the exception of the .223 / 5.56, if you don't count the 22LR conversion. If cost is your only consideration, go with a 9mm blow back. You can tune them so smooth you'll think its a Singer. The Blackout / Fireball / Whisper is a great round. Casting 240gr of lead isn't the most economical. Making it a light bullet velocity king is not what it was designed for. I recently "re-discovered" the 7.62x39. Low cost factory ammo and you can cast way down to 120's. Getting up to the 180's requires a deep seat. Another very versital cast round is the 7.62x25 Tokarev. It will take 180 - 200 gr cast and feed out of the stock magazines. Under 180 you need a mag adapter that increses your cost, but also lets you use surplus ammo. With the right throat you can run 240gr SMK's but you need to run 1:8 twist barrels and the light bullets do suffer a bit with accuracy. The 1:10 twists will do the 180's all day.
I've never really thought about swaging some 22LR case bullets for the .223, but if I did, you would have to match gas pressures with your current upper. You can do quite a bit of tuning with buffers and springs for lighter loads.
Staying with a "factory" upper, I started with the 9mm blow back. Cheap and easy with no gas system to worry about. It will feed anything you can stuff in the case. Blackout will work, but go with one with the pistol gas system. Custom uppers? The sky is the limit......No matter which way you go, it sounds like fun!

[Tank56]

For the 300/221 cartridge If your not going to get a suppressor you probably don't need to worry about sub-sonic cycling the action. I've had no problems with super-sonic rounds cycling(cast or jax). There is some data out there for heavy bullets at super-sonic velocities, so if you can get a little more out of them than the < 1100fps that you need for suppression.

[Moonie]

For the 300/221 cartridge If your not going to get a suppressor you probably don't need to worry about sub-sonic cycling the action. I've had no problems with super-sonic rounds cycling(cast or jax). There is some data out there for heavy bullets at super-sonic velocities, so if you can get a little more out of them than the < 1100fps that you need for suppression.

I've been looking into this recently as I really don't need subsonic but I do have a 230 and 245 mold. Ive been looking into the 300 whisper data and they do have some supersonic loads that should do fine, be sure you start low and work up, that's my plan.

[10b101shooter]

i went 338 specter

[Moonie]

i went 338 specter

I like it, it would fit nicely with my 300AAC and 6.8 SPC uppers...

AAHH!!! And I just decided to build a 5.56 pistol, jeez these things are addictive!

Wow, looking at those 338 specter barrels, I can get a complete 5.56 upper, minus bcg for about the same price as their 10.5" 338 barrel...

$300 is a bit much for a pistol barrel...

[EDG]

I did not vote. Either way is too much money or too much work.
There is no way I would cast bullets for an auto loader and then blow them off like shooting a water gun. I loaded some 45 ACP once for a friend that had a MAC 10. We went to the range and blew off 14 boxes (700 rounds) of 45ACP in no time.

[10b101shooter]

338 defiantly aint cheap especially when you add in die, mold and brass..... but its worth it for me, for the extra power out of a cast only ar. I got the 16 cause i wanna hunt with it. It help my choice that i have a bunch of h110.

Just cause you have 25 in a mag doesn't mean they have to be a bullet hose. I shoot rifleman's cadence and will run 300-500 in one range trip but not a one was a waisted shot because everyone was aimed with sling support.

[HATCH]

This should of been a no brainer decision.

The upper will always be around.
You need to stock up on ammo or ammo making components.

People thought i was stupid buying 3000 lbs of lead.....
Right now i can not buy any reading supplies for the next ten years and still be shooting then.

[Gunnut 45/454]

My question is why do you think a 5.56mm AR is not cast freindly? I shoot alot of cast bullet in mine both 1:9" and 1:7"? Granted you can't shoot at full load velocities- some say you can, I haven't seen any good accuracy past 2100 fps but thats another discussion. But I do get acceptabe to me accuracy out to 200 yards with my loads. I you want superb cast shooting though yes a 300 Blk is the way to go I love mine. In it I can go full power loads with cast and get very close to the same accuracy! If one wants to get very close to regular AR loading then you want to shoot heavy cast loads 70 gr plus. I would love to see a 75 gr cast bullet mold in 5.56mm one could push it to 2100-2200 fps and you'd not be loosing very much over Jwods 75 gr loadings.

[smokepole1971]

200 gr lee GC bullet 14.5 gr AA1680 runs like factory ammo!! Its not a hotrod.. but a blast to shoot cycles flawless in my carbine gas system and shoots well

[Blammer]

get a 25-223 or a 6mm-223, only a barrel change is needed ($300 for a good one) and lots of good projectiles for each. These calibers are not hoarded. :)

Plus either is not bad for cast boolits too.

I have a 25-223 and it's the cats meow!