41 AutoMag

[Grant]

I remember about 35 yrs. there a 41 automag and was wondering if anybody knows anything about it today. Whether if it is still made or not? Grant

[windrider919]

As far as I know there never was a .41 Automag, just the original .44 and the .357 Automag.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/usa/amp-auto-mag-e.html

In 1974 I bought one of the first Automags mfg/hand-built, produced back in in 1972 with a low 200's serial number..

NO commercial ammo was available to be found so I had to make my own brass, everyone said use 308 but I used 30-06. Had the dies custom made by JD Jones...interestingly enough, he also made me a conversion kit for my 1911 in .41 Avenger which used 45 Winchester Magnum cases, shortened and necked to .41 or you could use 45 ACP brass which left the case neck short. I carried and shot it for years in that configuration til 2004 when I sold it on eBay. The only problem was a lack of bullets of a profile that had no lead exposed, what happened to soft points and HP was they battered inside the 1911 magazine, deforming to fit the inside shape. If not crimped, the recoil would also push the bullets back into the case, which raised pressures and usually blew out the unsupported case at the feed ramp.

I had the same problem with the 44 Automag, most bullets were designed for revolvers and only by swaging existing jacketed bullets did we get bullets with a profile for use in automatics. Otherwise, the recoil in the magazine would slam the bullets into the magazine inner face, smashing the exposed lead into an inaccurate shape. Or I would chuck up the Hornady jacketed truncated cone bullet and use a center drill to remove the flat nose and make it a hollow point...now this was a heavy duty jacket Silhouette bullet so expansion was minimal but the sharp edge created 'cut' targets and flesh real well!!!. Loads were touchy...with X amount of powder shooting great and going up .2gr causing stuck cases with the rim torn off and blown primer pockets. Another problem was after a few years of shooting, I got erosion on the bolt face in a ring where the blown primers had caused gas cutting. The missing metal got so bad the primers of regular, 'safe' ammo started extruding into it. causing further primer failures and gas leakage into the pistol guts. Of course, I shot around 5000 rounds to do this. I sold the pistol to a gunsmith who was going to try to rebuild it and tighten up the now lose tolerances back in 1992.

It should be noted that the 44 Automag was a feral hog hunting dream, better than any other gun I ever tried for that. It remains the most accurate simi-auto I have ever shot and personally found the recoil both controllable and 'mild', having hands that just fit the large grip. I also took several of the little East Texas White tail deer with every one being a one shot kill. Longest shot - 160 yards to drop a wild cow which was broadside at the time. I held over the back and blew his heart out, he was DRT!

[x101airborne]

I have never heard of the 41 automag, but have always drooled over the 44 automag. I did find one used one time with dies and 200 cut brass for 1000.00, but I had just bought my 308 AR, so funds were low.

[gunfan]

I had heard about it. There was a very short run by the original Harry Sanford and AMT. The only place that I saw one was in a gun rag (I believe it was Gun World).

This is all the information I have.

Scott

[gunfan]

Here's a Shooter's Manual for all three (.357, 41 and .44 AMP) T.D.E. produced the early Auto Mag Pistols.

Scott

http://www.amtguns.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Shooters-manual-1975.pdf

[gunfan]

From "Practically Shooting"

ENJOY!

Auto Mag

By BarryinIN

"I have two AutoMags. I first saw a picture in a Guns & Ammo magazine in the mid 70s while in grade school and wanted one immediately. It took about 20 years, but I got one. I would get close to having the money, then something would happen, like that Dirty Harry movie that caused prices to skyrocket out of reach for several years. Then after having waited and looked for so long to get that first one, I found another six days later that I traded for. Strange things happen.

Anyway, to reply to an earlier point, it is true that High Standard did not manufacture any AutoMag pistols. Not exactly anyway. What High Standard did was to have some made for them with their name on them and serialized in their own range. The company making AMs reorganized/sold/closed/reopened and changed names a few times over it’s life, but I think TDE was the name at the time. FYI, TDE was short for Trust Deed Estates which was a company that mainly bought and sold oil leases.

Max Gera and Harry Sanford designed the gun. Sanford ran the company and later founded OMC and AMT, and was also the designer of the AMT Backup .380 (the original single action version). Prototypes were around in the late 60s, and Jeff Cooper tested one that was written up for a 1970 issue of Guns & Ammo. That is the earliest article I know of. It would be over a year before any guns were actually made, and they were not exactly production guns. The early ones (called Pasadena AMs because of the Pasadena CA factory location) were more or less hand made tool room guns. While these are generally the best fitted and finished, later guns are probably better as shooters because they updated and the design and materials as they went on. This company folded quickly because as you might guess, it was hard to turn a profit making guns one at a time. The company, and gun, bounced around until giving up the ghost some time in 1975 or so, although AMT assembled some guns from parts for years after.
Sanford said they lost money on every AM made, and I believe it.

Most were in 44 AMP (AMP = Auto Mag Pistol) caliber, followed by .357 AMP and .41 AMP. There were some other experimental chamberings like .30 AMP. The basic .44 AMP case was a .308 or .30-06 type case cut off then inside reamed. The .357 and .41 cases were that same case necked down. The .44 AMP was roughly .44 Magnum equivalent or a little faster. The .357 AMP is pretty interesting, as it can throw 158 grain bullets over 1800 fps and 125s over 2000 fps, and was the choice of some hunters for it’s flatter trajectory. I have a book on handgun hunting by George Nonte, where Lee Jurras (Super Vel founder) shot an antelope at some ridiculous range using a .357 AMP.

After I got mine and started looking it over, I found there was nothing really new about the gun. It was the combination of features that was new. The bolt and locking system resembles an M1941 Johnson rifle, with the addition of an accelerator arm from a Browning MG. The trigger mechanism is very similar to a High Standard target pistol. The recoil spring arrangement is like a Walther P38. It was an early stainless steel gun, though not the first.

It was pretty radical at the time, though. Consider that at the time, the only .44 Magnums were the S&W 29 and Ruger Super Blackhawk. Then there comes this all stainless autoloader.

I usually my .44 with 22 grains of Winchester 296 and a 240 grain bullet. That is about the lowest charge that will operate the action, and gets around 1250 fps. Articles from the time say they needed full power loads to function, which some took to mean it thrived on the hottest thing you could put in it. Apparently, quite a few bolts were cracked that way.

My other one is .357 AMP with 8.5″ barrel (6.5″ was typical). I have not shot it very much. About that 8.5″ barrel: Since the barrel and barrel extension (upper receiver) moved a short distance with the bolt upon firing, the weight of the barrel was important to function. While the standard 6.5″ barrels has vent ribs, the 8.5″ barrels were usually non-ribbed to make them the same weight.

They both work fine, if I keep the load where it wants and keep them lubed. The magazines have a stiff spring, so can be a bear to load (seven rounds). A lighter spring allows the rounds to compress the spring under recoil, and drop down so the bolt passes over the top round without feeding it.

Recoil is pretty mild for what it is. I don’t like recoil, and have never kept a .44 Magnum revolver very long. But I can shoot the .44 AM just fine. The recoil operated action and the weight help.

On the High Standards, they had an “H” serial number prefix. Most AMs have an “A” prefix.

Which brings up a potential trap one has to watch for, which is caused by the way the guns were marked. Values vary according to when a gun was made and so marked, but that’s easy to fake. The only marking on the frame is the serial number. The barrel extension (upper receiver) got the info important to value, like whether it is a TDE, Auto Mag Corp, High Standard, etc, where it was made, and of course caliber. With the Pasadena AutoMags usually being most valuable, one could easily put a Pasadena upper onto a later, less valuable frame. The barreled upper assemblies were offered as accessory items, so there should be more of them out there than frames.
The only way to know if a gun is “right” is to know what serial number range matches what upper receiver markings. I may have a chart somewhere, but don’t know.

Something else I always thought was neat:
When they stopped making them (at least as a production item) in the mid 70s, the last 50 frames were serial numbered “LAST 50″ counting down to “LAST 1″.

I need to stop. I can yak about these a while."


Scott

[scb]

IIRC the 41 was the brain child of Lee Jurras. Owner of SuperVel.

[gunfan]

Lee Jurras inspired, and was the first to load, JHP ammunition under the Super Vel brand (1969).

Scott

[Leadmelter]

The 41 AMP is misnamed as it was developed by LEJ when he was the distibutor of the Automag. The correct name is the 41 JMP.
If you guys are still interested in the Auto Mag, a bunch of cultist still exist at http://www.amtguns.info/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 which is run out of England. Lot's of great photos and info. LEJ and Max Gera are on that forum.
I have a 41 JMP SSK barrel for my TC G2. Fun to shoot.
Enjoy the addiction!
Gerry
MI

[LUBEDUDE]

I had two Auto mags that I shot a lot. One 44 with the 6.5 and a 357 with he 8.5. I lost my job and needed a computer to write resumes and job hunt, so I sold them to my brother for 2k. I also gave him a ton of ammo and brass along with dies and many mags.

Later I picked up a couple more 44's along the way. One 6.5 shooter and one New unfired 44 with a High Standard upper. I have bought some brass from Starline and picked up some dies. I have only shot the one. The High Standard remains a safe queen.

I feel in love with the Auto Mag when I first saw the ad in American Rifleman in the early 70's and wanted one ever since. It is a graceful pistol with a ton of power.

Just All American

[gunfan]

The closest you can get is the Wildey pistol, It is still being manufactured. The pistol can be had in .44 AMP, .45 Win. Mag. and .475 Wildey Mag..

Scott

[smoked turkey]

I hate to even think about this. I bought one of the early ones after they first came out in .44. I paid $375 for it. I purchased the longer barrel version. When it came in, the longer barrel version didn't have the "cool" ribbed barrel like the 6" one and so I didn't like it. Sold it. One of my dummer mistakes. Yes I have made others almost as bad. I could tell you about the old Luger....

[Grant]

Thanks for the info. But I seem to remember one that shot the 41 mag, rimmed. Could be wrong on that. Grant

[Lead Freak]

I remember about 35 yrs. there a 41 automag and was wondering if anybody knows anything about it today. Whether if it is still made or not? Grant

A good friend who introduced me to handgun shooting in the late 60's bought one of the first .44 AMP's. The attached picture , I believe from 1972, shows me shooting it, with the ejected, trimmed 30-06 case just above the open chamber. The other picture shows me shooting the first handgun that he convinced me to buy, which turned out to be one of my favorites - a Lyman .36 cal Navy. I wore out several sets of screws shooting it and sent many lbs. of pure lead down the barrel. Another good friend who worked for the local phone company kept me supplied with lead cable wrap.

[gunfan]

Thanks for the info. But I seem to remember one that shot the 41 mag, rimmed. Could be wrong on that. Grant

Grant: It wasn't the AMP. As I recall, there were three pistol chambered to shoot the .41 Remington Magnum.

1) The Coonan,

2) The LAR Grizzly

3) The Desert Eagle.

There may be others but those are what I remember.

Scott

[Leadmelter]

LeadFreak
From best I can make out, that is an Automag. I see the bolt either recoiling or returning to battery. There is a rib on the barrel.
Tfhe 41 JMP was a L.E. Jurras novelty invention to complete the custom triade: 357 AMP, 41 JMP, 44 AMP.
I believe he said about 20 barrels were made.
Gerry
By the way Nice Sideburns!!!

[mstarling]

I bought an Automag from the first production run many years ago. Still have it. Also bought a 10.5" .357 AMP bbl made by B&B Sales for the Automag. Still have it.

Lee Jurras was the fella who put out the special edition Automags. They had a prettier finish and were indeed available in .357 AMP, .41 JMP, and .44 AMP.

There was a very significant issue with the foam in the carry cases originally supplied. The foam deteriorated and glued itself to the weapons stored in them. Fortunately, my gun was in a safe rather than in its case. Did happen to a friend of mine!

Lovely pistol. The long barrel .357 AMP sounded like a high powered rifle. Mine has been a safe queen for many, many years now. Too valuable to shoot.

[Leadmelter]

Group
If you want to see some pictures of beautiful Automags, check this out:
http://www.amtguns.info/forum_posts.asp?TID=1028&title=share-your-favorite-automag-porn
don't let the title fool you.
Enjoy
Gerry
MI

[Lead Freak]

LeadFreak
From best I can make out, that is an Automag. I see the bolt either recoiling or returning to battery. There is a rib on the barrel.
Tfhe 41 JMP was a L.E. Jurras novelty invention to complete the custom triade: 357 AMP, 41 JMP, 44 AMP.
I believe he said about 20 barrels were made.
Gerry
By the way Nice Sideburns!!!

Yes, you're right. It was an Automag. You can tell I'm no where near an expert on these. I thought the 44 AMP was the same thing as an Automag. Good catch.

[Grant]

Gunfan when you said desert eagle I rememberd that was the name. Now to find one that dont cost about 3 mil. to buy. Thanks Grant

[LUBEDUDE]

Grant: It wasn't the AMP. As I recall, there were three pistol chambered to shoot the .41 Remington Magnum.

1) The Coonan,

2) The LAR Grizzly

3) The Desert Eagle.

There may be others but those are what I remember.

Scott


The Coonan only came in .357 mag as in the revolver cartridge. They did not make it in 41 mag.


I just sold my Coonan to my brother.

Coonan has been rivived. They are back in business now currently making guns.


If Lar Grizzly made a 41 it is rare, as the 44mag in a Grizzly is quite uncommon in a factory model.
45 Win Mag is the most common.

I have a 41 Rem Mag Conversion for my Desert Eagle.

[LUBEDUDE]

LeadFreak
From best I can make out, that is an Automag. I see the bolt either recoiling or returning to battery. There is a rib on the barrel.
Tfhe 41 JMP was a L.E. Jurras novelty invention to complete the custom triade: 357 AMP, 41 JMP, 44 AMP.
I believe he said about 20 barrels were made.
Gerry
By the way Nice Sideburns!!!


Leadmelter is the most correct.

The mainstream calibers from the factory were 44AMP and 357AMP with the 41JMP being a custom load and Barrel from Jurras. Lee Jurras was a distributor for Auto Mags as well as manufacturer of Super Vel Ammunition. However, I do not recall if Jurras was still part of Super Vel at the same time his was fooling with Auto Mags. I hate to assume.

There are known to be 12 actual barrel calibers made:

1) .45 ACP
2).44AMP
3).357AMP
4).300AMP
5).41Jmp
6).30LMP
7).25LMP
8).22LMP
9)..45ACP MAGNUM
10).45 WIN MAG
11).40KMP
12).475 AUTO MAG

This info on barrels taken from Bruce Stark's book on the Auto Mag

[Leadmelter]

If anybody is interested in the Auto Mag, that is book to get. If you own an Auto Mag, Brian Maynard's book on Auto Mag maintenance is the one to have. He has made a run of custom barrels this year and is gearing up for another.
By the way, Kent Lomont passed away a few months ago from bone cancer.
Leadmelter

[LUBEDUDE]

I did not know abour Kent Lomont.

He was Huge part of Auto Mag history as well.

He also had his line of barrels. They were named after the critters that could be taken with that particular caliber and had the animal's picture on it.

Though I never saw one personally, from what I have read, a few of them were: the Bison. Groundhog, Fox, and I think Couger or Puma? There were a couple of others as well. Naturally the 20 cal loads mentioned above with LMP would go with the Groundhog and Fox.

[Leadmelter]

He passed away in hospice in Montana and is burried in Salmon Idaho near Elmer Keith who was his mentor. Not sure what will happen to his business in Class 3 weapons.
Gerry

[John in WI]

I knew that the link for "Auto mag porn" would have a picture of Mack Bolan from the old Executioner books. That guy was my hero when I was a kid--and he ALWAYS had the automag in hand. I remember in the "Executioner's War Book" that the author (Don Penndelton?) had several pages carefully describing reloading for it. Apparently he was a real life Automag nut and new what he was talking about. By the time I ever heard of one, they were out of production for a few years and in the thousands of dollars!

[LUBEDUDE]

Yeah, I remember being a young teenager reading the early Executioner series. I was wanting to get a Marlin 444 bad. (The Auto Mag was already on my list) And low and behold- Mack Bolan sits on a rooftop and puts some 444 slugs through some mobsters car engine blocks. NOW I really HAD to have one!

It took me about 20 yrs, but I finally got me that Marlin 444 and it lived up to everything I ever thought it would be.


Oh, yes- Don Pendleton was the author.

[Mohillbilly]

Automag made a couple of runs (or more) of .41 JMP/AMP barrels. Some were Lees , and a late run by AMC .41 AMP Covina Cal. mod 280 . Also the .44 AMP , .45 Winmag , and .357 AMP were done in that issue as well .Cases were cut back 30-06 case type heads , trimmed and reamed for the .44 , the others were just those same 44 AMP cases necked smaller . LAR made Grizzly a MK VI that shot .44 Rem mag . The LAR MK V ( .50AE ) had a convertion for .44 REM . the MK I ( .45 Winmag ) had a convertion for .45ACP , .357 Rem. , 10mm , and a nearly identical .357/.45 Grizzle Winmag equal to the .357 AMP . Desert Eagle did .50 AE , .44 Rem , .41 Rem , 357 Rem . and .440 Corbon .

[LUBEDUDE]

Didn't know about the 440 corbon in the Desert Eagle.

Hey Mohillbilly, did you see that Automag V in 440 Corbon on Gunbroker for 18K!!!?

[Mohillbilly]

Yess Amazing ! Wish I could find another 44 mag barrel for my Grizzly MK V I would have it rechambered to 440 Corbon .

[44deerslayer]

I have a Tde 44 automag that my dad bought new in 1972 i shoot it but not a lot .it's a great gun but i cant hunt with it in pa so it sits in the safe I have to use 308 case cut down And 240 jhp and 2400 is a great load