30-30 move beyond plinking loads?

[corvette8n]

I am ready to move in hunting loads for my 30-30 Marlins and Winchester 94's,
currently I have only shot factory ammo and my plinking load of 8.5gr of Unique under the Lee 150gr fngc tumbled lube with liquid Alox. I am looking for some suggestions for whitetail hunting loads with this bullet. The only rifle powders I have on hand are H4895 and Win 760. I am not adverse to buying another type of powder but the nearest gun shop only carries Hodgon, I have to drive quite a ways to get to another shop that has limited hours but more variety. I cast a coffee can full of the Lee 150's and have about 200 empty brass cases waiting.

:-D

[Cherokee]

H4895 will do fine for cast bullets. Check the Hodgdon site. I started at 20 gr and worked up.

[Scrounger]

Both those powders will work fine in the .30-30. Even your 150 Lee is adequate for deer but I'd prefer the RCBS 30-180-FN (actually about 190 grains). If you can't find data for the WW 760 powder, use 4350 starting data and work up. The 4895 would be best powder for the 150 grain bullet, the WW 760 a better choice for 180 to 190 grain bullets.

[Junior1942]

The 150 Lee will work for deer, but the 170 Lee would work a little better. 4895 is one of the best powders for cast in 30-30.

Scrounger is 100% right about the RCBS 30-180-FN for deer. IMHO, it's the best deer cast bullet in 30-30 lever actions. I push it to ~1850 fps with Hodgdon's Varget in my Win 94. RTL and in ac ww alloy, mine weigh 195 grs.

[Marlin Junky]

My experience with 30-180FN and a vintage 24" 336A has shown that: 1) This mold in it's current form (my molds are less than 5 years old) can be expected to drop boolits weighing near 200 grains when cast of clip-on WW metal; and, 2) it likes to be shoved by H380, H414 and W760. I don't remember ever trying 30-180FN in my Winchester M94 carbine but I believe it would shoot well from the slower twist.

I shoot this boolit in NRA LA Silhouette competition and it'll shoot the ram out from under its feet with a low hit. I think I'm the only one at my range that hasn't rung a ram with the 30-30 but all the other competitors are using 150's and 170's, usually in copper patched form. Velocity from the 24" 336A is over 2100 fps with H414 and W760 and right at 2100 fps with H380 except on really cool days. These are totally sane loads that give no signs of sticky extraction.

BTW, the later of my two molds was purchased less than a couple years ago and casts boolits weighing just about 1 grain heavier than the first one I acquired; i.e., 195 grains naked in BHN 14+ metal opposed to 194 grains in same.

I can't find a better heavy boolit that fits my 30-30 and the flat point is accurate to 200 meters. Nose/body diameters are running just about .3005/.3105". I've shimmed the heal portion of both my molds to bring the body diameter up to .3115-.312" for the deep grooved 'ol Marlin.

MJ

[JDL]

+1 for H-414 and the .30-180FN in the 336A! -JDL

[pdawg_shooter]

Paper patch your bullets and you can use jacketed bullet loads !!!

[357maximum]

Paper patch your bullets and you can use jacketed bullet loads !!!

With the proper alloy/ temper/boolit fit/lube you can without paper patching...be not scared..it will work I do it all the time.....just remember you will get an increase in speed and a decrease in pressure using cast most of the time....all else being equal IE...actual total weight...

[versifier]

Your Lee 150FN is fine for deer hunting. I have had best results accuracy wise with IMR3031 and RE7, but 4895 is a good powder, too. Only your rifle can tell you what it likes best. Many prefer heavier boolits, but if your rifle shoots the 150 accurately, go with it. It kills cleanly within 100yds IME, have never tried it at a longer range. ACWW or softer alloy will perform best in living tissue. We have killed deer with Lee soupcans (carefully placed broadside shots at short range, don't recommend it for "spray and pray" shooters). 150gr will do the job if you put it in the boiler room. Even a .50BMG will not drop one on a gutshot, but a little .22cal will do it with careful placement.

[twotrees]

165gr GC Boolit over 3031 powder. I have shot these up to condom bullet speeds with good results.

Start low and work up, your milage may vary ect.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees

BTW: 2 very dead deer didn't know I was shooting boolits into them.

[Larry Gibson]

I get quite good accuracy with ACWWs with the RCBS 30-150-FN out of my M94 carbine. I load them over 30 gr H4895 and get right 1t 1950 fps. While the Lyman 311041 is my choice for hunting I wouldn't have any qualms using the RCBS 105 gr bullet. Though I'd cast it of magnum shot and WQ the bullets out of the mould. That gives a hard yet maleablbe alloy that will expand instead of shatter. I'd up the charge of H4895 until 2100 fps and accuracy held for the first 5 shots out of a cold, clean barrel. Should kill deer all day long out to 200 yards if the bullet is put where it needs to go.

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

MJ,
Glad to see that you are still shooting the 180 RCBS / H414 combo. and doing well with it:-D

That has proven to have been one very accurate combination for me over the years in every .30-30 I have tried it in (about 7 to date).

Shooting NRA Cowboy Silhouette is a lot fun. Shooting it with cast bullets just gives it a special flavor!:-D

w30wcf

[Marlin Junky]

w30wcf,

Thank you, but even though H414 works well and gives me over 2100 fps with 30-180FN from my 24" 336A, I bought a couple of the last jugs of Special Ball from Pat's Reloading which are just about identical to H380 (I compared both lots to canistered H380 last year) and have been using this powder exclusively for Rams. I can't tell the difference between the performance on Rams between H414 and Special Ball and the former does 2100 fps at 33 to 33.5 grains. At 33 to 34 grains, the H380/380-like powders I can dispense directly from the RCBS powder measure and the charge is not at 100% capacity like it would be with H414/W760 at 36 grains (which is necessary in my gun to break 2100 fps). Under most conditions, I think the Special Ball might be a little more accurate than the H414. have you ever shot 30-180FN and H380 in your 30-30's? My 30-180FN's weigh between 194 and 195 grains unchecked in WW metal with a little solder. Adding the weight of the gascheck, gives us 198 to 199 grain boolits.

MJ

[w30wcf]

MJ,

Thank you for the info on the H380 & Special Ball. To date, I have not tried H380 under the heavy cast bullets in the .30-30 ......180RCBS, 198 Old West, Lyman 311644 & 311284. I have enough H414 to last me awhile. Based on your experience, I'll have to give H380 a try when my supply of H414 gets low.

w30wcf

[Char-Gar]

The 30-30 with top end cast bullets is a favorite of many deer hunters. There are many good powders and bullets.

Lyman 311291 and 311041 are long time favorites
RCBS 180 FN is another bullet with a strong following. It will cast out to around 190 grains depending on alloy and is a proven deer taker.

4895 and 3031 are traditional favorites in charge weights of 26 to 30 grains.

H335 is another favorite and a charge weight of 26 grains seems to be popular. Jim Taylor and others swear by the above RCBS 180 FN bullet over 26/H335 as top notch deer medicine.

I am not familiar with the Lee family of bullets but many find them to be first rate.

All things being equal.... A heavier bullets is better than a lighter bullet and a larger meplat is better than a smaller meplat.

[Poohgyrr]

I don't know squat about lead boolits and the 30-30, but here is an article to check. Hope it helps.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/casthollowpoints.htm

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,

Thank you for the info on the H380 & Special Ball. To date, I have not tried H380 under the heavy cast bullets in the .30-30 ......180RCBS, 198 Old West, Lyman 311644 & 311284. I have enough H414 to last me awhile. Based on your experience, I'll have to give H380 a try when my supply of H414 gets low.

w30wcf

John,

H414/W760 may be better suited to 311284 but at least the first two you mentioned would be great. Actually, I was going to try 311284 with DP-85 (Ramshot Hunter) but my 311285 mold disappeared.

MJ

[w30wcf]

MJ,
I would suspect that H380 would work well with the 311284 as well. Sorry to hear about the loss of your mold (hopefully, just misplaced).

Interestingly, I found that a capacity load of slower burning H4831SC ignited by a WLRM primer in .30-30 R-P cases, will push the heavier 220gr 311284 to a shade over 2,000 f.p.s. in my Teddy Roosevelt '94 Commemorative rifle (26" barrel):-D .

w30wcf

[grumpy one]

w30wcf, do you find the magnum primer makes a difference with H4831SC? I'm having positive results with it using standard WLR primers in compressed loads with J bullets in the 30-06, but need maximum pressures to get accuracy. My reduced loads with cast bullets in the 30-06 have been both dirty and inaccurate. I haven't even tried it in the 30-30 for that reason. I also notice that you and others have success with W760 in the 30-30, where I get awful results - are you using magnum primers there too?

[w30wcf]

g o,

With H4831SC in the .30-30 / 220gr. combination, the Magnum primer gives about 60 f.p.s higher velocity. Accuracy is pretty much the same as the standard large rifle primer.

I use the standard WLR (Winchester Large Rifle) with H414 / W760. Truthfully, I have never tried the magnum primer with these powders since the standard primer has given such good results.

Sorry to hear that it hasn't worked well for you, at least so far.

w30wcf

[Lloyd Smale]

my favorite 3030 powder is re7

[Marlin Junky]

Grumpy One,

I've found magnum primers are not necessary for accurate shooting with heavy boolits and powders like H380, H414/W760 and even DP-85. However, like w30wcf, I've found that magnum primers with the slower powders will kick boolits out about 50 fps faster than standard primers from 24" barrels. 2150 fps with a 195+ grain boolit is possible from a 24" barrel with these slower powders and the cases will stand up to many reloads. If 26 grains of H335 and RCBS 30-180FN is a good deer load by Jim Taylor's standards then he should try that boolit cast of clip-on WW metal over 37 grains of H414. He might find it a good elk load since it is about 45% more powerful than his H335 load.

I think heavy boolits with H380 and slower powders need to be at least .001" over max. groove diameter in order to perform well. I shoot .311" to .3115" 30-180FN's through my old 336 which 'mikes' at .310" near the chamber and .309" near the muzzle. I also think the heavy boolits benefit from alloy in the BHN 14 to 15 range because the pressures with a case full of something like W760 is not going to be as high as those generated by max. loads of H335 and Re7.

MJ

[grumpy one]

Thanks MJ, I'm only using 175 grain (before GC and lube) bullets and that might be part of the reason I haven't been able to get accuracy from W760. However there are mysteries going on inside my rifle and I have to get to the bottom of them before I can expect to make sense out of the results. Incidentally I am sizing to .312 which is about .0003 over groove diameter at the breech - so far it looks as if adding .001 makes groups quite a bit larger, but because of the variability in group sizes I'm getting, I'd need to do quite a few more tests to be sure of that.

My main plan is to try to get consistent results with my target load (17.5 grains of 4759 behind a Lee C309-170-F) then move on from there. It is kind of frustrating to put three or four of a five shot group through one rather small hole at 55 yards, but then have one or two flyers that open the group up to 1-1.3 inches. I am in the process of moving to 14 BHN bullets - I've tried water-dropped, which was useless because the hardness varied so much, and I've tried pure lino, which on limited testing was even worse than the water dropped bullets. However my problem isn't necessarily bullet-related; I just have to continue with the hard yards and find out what is wrong. I've even tried some jacketed bullets, but I can only shoot .311 bullets - .308 ones all come out sideways - and there isn't much of a range available at my local store. So far the jacketed loads group worse than the cast ones, so I think my time is better spent working with my target load.

[Marlin Junky]

Grumpy,

Are you trying to develop a load for an iron sighted 336? If so, when was it made?

MJ

[Old Time Hunter]

32 grains of H4895, CCI large rifle primer, 150 gr LFNGC sized .309" = 2290 fps average over 20 cartridges. 33 grains (maxed out) of H4895, CCI LR primer, 170 grain Hornady JFN's @ .308" = 2305 fps over 10 cartridges. Both grouped inside an inch @ 100 yards. Both have been successful on Whitetail.

[grumpy one]

Grumpy,

Are you trying to develop a load for an iron sighted 336? If so, when was it made?

MJ

MJ, I removed the Williams peep from this 336 when I got it and fitted a second-hand Taiwanese Tasco 4x32 because it is much easier to shoot that way (I'm 61). It was made in 1981 according to the serial number. Seems like that must have been a year they didn't have a quality control department.

If I can get the loads sorted out I may revert to the peep sight at some point, but I doubt I'll ever hunt again and the scope just makes the thing a lot easier to shoot from the bench. Groups are almost certainly smaller as well.

I've given occasional thought to getting the thing rebarreled - aside from the ludicrously oversize bore, when looked at from the muzzle end the bore is as rough as a cob as well. However it sometimes shoots MOA, which makes me think the situation can be saved, and rebarreling here in Australia would probably be way too costly for the performance gain achieved. I do occasionally think, though, about what the next owner of this rifle - after I'm dead - will think the first time he fires a group with factory loads and sees that every one of them keyholes.

[Scrounger]

I have learned to never pay too much for a gun, for some day I will want to sell it and I can't afford those losses. If that rifle don't shoot, sell and buy another one until you find one that does. The first Ruger Mini-14 I had would honestly shoot an inch at a hundred yards. It got stolen and I must have bought and sold at least a dozen of them trying to find one that would stay under 3 inches at a hundred yards. Finally had one rebarrelled and it would do between a half inch and three quarters. By then the ARs had arrived and I lost interest in the Rugers.

[Marlin Junky]

Grumpy,

Assuming the chamber is nice and it's a rifle w/o barrel bands, I'd look for a good gunsmith to bore it out to .323"/.314" and give it a 12 or 14" twist if possible. Otherwise, I'd probably carefully fire-lap it and hope for the best.

MJ

[grumpy one]

MJ, it's an ordinary 20" carbine. The chamber is slightly ringed at the shoulder/neck junction due to an ill-advised experiment with dacron wads. The bore has a tenth of an inch wide bald ring half an inch back from the muzzle due to another ill-advised experiment, this time with bore-cleaning by electrolysis. Boring out out to 32 Win Spec might fix both problems, but I doubt it's a cost-effective process here in Australia.

[Scrounger]

I doubt you could get it bored out to less than .35 caliber. How about deepening the crown one inch to take out the 'owwie'? Sort of a false muzzle or counterbore. That shouldn't cost much.

[grumpy one]

Scrounger, I have thought of that as a potentially cheaper solution than shortening the barrel (which would require moving the front sight), but I've worried a bit that a poor smith could make a real mess of it. However on the face of it the new crown would be a super-recessed target type flat crown, which seems a relatively easy job even half an inch down into the bore.

Seems to me the first thing to do is to finish the job of seeing if I can fix the group size problem. If I can get it to shoot, fixing the aesthetic problem when I look down the bore would become worthwhile. Either way I don't think the resale value of a rifle that shoots factory loads sideways is going to be very high.

[Newtire]

H335 is another favorite and a charge weight of 26 grains seems to be popular. Jim Taylor and others swear by the above RCBS 180 FN bullet over 26/H335 as top notch deer medicine.



I have used the H-335 with anywhere from 25 up to 30.5 gr. but with athe Group-buy 311407 and group buy 311041. This really seems to be a great load although have never shot anything more paper with it. The 30.5 gr. load is max and should be worked up to but gave no trouble in my 3 30-30 lever actions and a Savage 340 bolt. Another great powder is Win. 748 at 31-33 gr. with those same 2-175 gr. boolits. I was very cautious about loading anything this hot but no troubles.

[Pilgrim]

Youse guys got me interested in fooling around with my 30-30 again. I rebarreled it a few years ago (26" full octagon) and never did work up a load for it. I got side tracked working with my .358 getting ready for a moose hunting trip and other stuff has been in the way ever since. Anyway...My rifle seems to be pretty cavalier when it comes to powder. I was using the 30-180 FN (195.5 +/-, ACWW) and R-P cases. I tried at least 5 powders and some primer variations and one bullet variation in these tests. With 30.0 of W748 + CCI-250 primer I got 1" and 3/4" groups (5 shot @ 50 yds) with a velocity of 1935 fps. 29.0 of H335 and a CCI 250 primer gave 1999 fps and two groups around 1.5". 27.0 H4895 w/ CCI-200 gave 1823 fps and groups of 1" and 1 3/4". 27.0 H322 w/ a CCI-200 gave 1927 and groups of 1" and 2". As I'm now wearing tri-focals and have a bit of the shakes, I consider anything smaller than about 1.5" with open sights (peep sight) luck, at least for now. So again, at least for now, those 4 powders seem to be pretty much the same same in my rifle. I'm going to push the W748 up a bit as I'm seeing absolutely no pressure signs and move velocity would be nice, if accuracy holds up.

Grumpy - The barrel on my .30-30 is one I bought off of e-bay new for $50 IIRC. I'd just watch the ebay and buy a new or good used barrel for your Marlin and quit fooling around with the one that is on it. With the ringed barrel I rather suspect you will never get consistent cast boolit accuracy out of it. I just checked Numrich for 336 barrels and they are sold out of some, and have others that I think would fit OK. Prices run from ~ $62 USD on up to $100 USD. I dunno what the rules are in OZ, but importing a barrel shouldn't be tto tough I'd think. FWIW Pilgrim

[Marlin Junky]

Pilgrim,

With that long barrel you'll be able to approach 2200 fps with those 30-180FN's you've described using H414 and FED 215 primers... maybe even H380 with FED 210's. Work up to 37 grains of H414 or 34 grains of H380 and let us know what happens to your accuracy and velocity. You might want to get some Winchester brass though.

MJ

[Pilgrim]

I've got both of those powders and a bunch more besides! When I finish with the 748 tests I'll see what the others will do as well. When I stopped HBR shooting I had about 25# of W748 and no particular use for it. After starting these .30-30 tests, I suspect I'm down to prolly 24.95 # or there abouts. Is that so low powder wise I should start looking for another powder/load combination for that rifle? {:o) Pilgrim