KIK Powder Question

[Dragoon 45]

Now that GOEX is no longer producing Cartridge Grade and I only have two pounds left, I need to switch to a new powder. I plan on getting a couple of lbs of Swiss 1.5 Fg, maybe a pound of Schueltzen 2Fg, and a couple of pounds of KIK to try. From earlier threads I see some of you have shot the KIK with some very promising results.

I understand KIK comes in 1F, 1.5 F, and 2Fg. Which grade are you folks using in .40 and .45 caliber rifle cases, specifically .40-65 and .45-70?

Thank You.

[M-Tecs]

1.5 F, and 2Fg for me in the 45-70

[Nobade]

FFg in the 45-70 and 38-55. Oh, the 45-70 caseless too. (inline muzzleloader) Good stuff, if a bit dusty.

[joec]

I don't load those you mentioned however I do load 45 Colt and use 2F exclusively be it rifle or pistol. I just bought 8 pounds of powder in a group buy. 2 Goex, 2 KIK, 2 Swiss and 2 Schuetzen. I already have used 2 lbs of Pyrodex and not sure I will load with it again.

[Don McDowell]

2f kik has been working the best for us in the 45-70, and while I haven't done much with it in the 40-65 other folks I know and trust their word really like 2f in it as well.

[John Boy]

The 2010 shipment of KIK is my Go To powder and I have and have shot all the others.
50-70 - Fg
38-55 and 45-70 - 1.5Fg and FFg which is the 'stronger velocity' powder
FFFg - have't shot it you but plan on using it in a 45-90 and in my 22LR BP reloads because of the high percentages of 40 to 80 mesh grains

Here are the sieve ratios for the 2010 shipment of KIK grades. I found the mix ratios are very interesting. Check out the ratios for Fg - FFg and FFFg ... all strong in the higher micron grain sizes

KIK Fg (Lot 3910)
12 Mesh – Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 99.9%
30 Mesh – Trace

KIK 1.5Fg (Lot 3910)
12- Mesh - Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 95.87%
30 mesh – 4.13%
40 mesh – Trace

KIK FFg (Lot 3910)
12 mesh - Zero
14 Mesh - Zero
20 Mesh – 70.68%
30 Mesh – 29.32%
40 Mesh – Trace

KIK FFFG (Lot 3910)
30 Mesh – 45.04% Hold
40 Mesh – 34.32% Hold
50 Mesh – 16.03% Hold
60 Mesh – 01.53% Hold
70 Mesh – Unknown ... I don't have this screen
80 Mesh – 3.05% Hold
80 Mesh – 0.01% Pass

And compared to Goex CTG, the KIK Fg is the same sieve ratio:
Goex Cartridge – (0542) 07MY04B - May 2004
20 mesh – 98.46% retained
30 mesh – 01.54% retained
Through – Trace

[Dan Cash]

2F Kik is working great in .45-70. I don't have a.40 but do shoot .38-55 and the jury is still out over 2Fg or 3Fg in this cartridge. The 3F is ahead a bit at the moment.

[Dragoon 45]

Thank you for the info.

[TXGunNut]

I've burned less than 10 #'s of BP but my 45 Colt likes KIK FFFg and my 45-90 likes 1.5Fg and I'm sure I'll find something to do with the FFg. Very clean, compares well w/ Swiss. FFFg a bit dusty but I'm comparing it to FFg Swiss.

[Ed in North Texas]

My .50-70 Roller likes the KIK 1.5 really well.

Ed

[brady1013ax]

I shoot 68 grains of KIK 1.5F in my Pedersoli 1874 45-70. Great stuff! Shoots clean and consistent.

[John Boy]

Look at this loading data chart for BP reloads by caliber ... note the recommended grades that should be used ... http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

OK, this chart is on the Hodgdon website but they never made a pound of powder. Back in the '70's, they imported and sold BP made in Great Britain. So who spent all the testing time to develop these loading data for more calibers than we will ever shoot in our lifetime? It was done by Curtis's & Harvey before they were purchased by Nobel Industries Limited!

The point that I am trying to convey is: look at the grade of powder by caliber on the C&H table and then compare the sieve ratios to the KIK Fg - 1.5Fg - FFg and FFFg grades of powder I posted. Your reloads will shoot very favorably using the KIK best fit ratios to the C&H tested grade of powder

[Dragoon 45]

Thank you.

I have seen that loading table before, but didn't really pay much attention to it, due to bullet size. In my case, I shoot 400+ grn bullets in my .40-65 while the table only gives a load for a 260 grn bullet which was the original loading. I don't really know how much difference powder grain size makes when it comes to significant changes in bullet weight. I have shot Fg, FFg, and FFFg in my .40's. The Fg and FFG gave dismal accuracy, the FFg was good, but the Cartridge grade gave the best. I varied compression, powder charge, seating depth, and other factors when I developed my load.

Then also the question occurs to me: How much does moderate to heavy compression change the grain's size? I have taken apart compressed BP loads where the powder charge was almost a solid pellet with quite a lot of dust in the case around the edges of the pellet. That same load would give 1.5 MOA off a bench out to 200 yds with very controlable fouling, and gave me my best score to date on the rams at 500 m.

I found a local source for Graf and Sons powder which I understand is made by Wano. I got a couple of pounds today to experiment with. And I got extremely lucky, as the dealer had 9 lbs of GOEX Cartridge that came in in a shipment that was substituted for another powder in a order they had placed. Needless to say I got all he had of the Cartridge.



Look at this loading data chart for BP reloads by caliber ... note the recommended grades that should be used ... http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

OK, this chart is on the Hodgdon website but they never made a pound of powder. Back in the '70's, they imported and sold BP made in Great Britain. So who spent all the testing time to develop these loading data for more calibers than we will ever shoot in our lifetime? It was done by Curtis's & Harvey before they were purchased by Nobel Industries Limited!

The point that I am trying to convey is: look at the grade of powder by caliber on the C&H table and then compare the sieve ratios to the KIK Fg - 1.5Fg - FFg and FFFg grades of powder I posted. Your reloads will shoot very favorably using the KIK best fit ratios to the C&H tested grade of powder

[John Boy]

Dragon, I understand trying to determine which grade to use for a the 400gr bullet. My suggestion would be FFg of KIK - Schuetzen or Goex CTG with BR2 or Federal Match LP primers. These primers will reduce the ignition brisance and allow the powder column to deflagurate better.

And as for compression of the Cartridge, it is the only Goex powder that produces for me - either with a light compression (0.125) or hard as a brick (0.500). Cartridge is less dense than KIK but it is almost a straight FFg grade powder:

Goex Cartridge – (0542) 07MY04B - May 2007
20 mesh – 98.46% retained
30 mesh – 01.54% retained
Through – Trace

Goex Cartridge – (05-37) 02OC07B - Oct 2002
12 mesh – 0.62% retained
14 mesh – 0.03% retained
20 mesh – 97.54% retained
30 mesh – 01.70% retained
Through – 0.11%

[wyoduster]

[QUOTE=John Boy;1757375]Dragon, I understand trying to determine which grade to use for a the 400gr bullet. My suggestion would be FFg of KIK - Schuetzen or Goex CTG with BR2 or Federal Match LP primers. These primers will reduce the ignition brisance and allow the powder column to deflagurate better.

Wow those are $2.00 words...(brisance,deflagurate)
I was myself wondering about primers and what difference it would make. and Why...
I just bought some Swiss 1.5 and it made a difference in accuracy over the KIK.. with my 40-65.

[Dragoon 45]

I switched to CCI LR BR primers last fall. I immediately noticed an increase in accuracy. I tried the LP primers for a while, but didn't have much luck with them. Since I was lucky enough to find those 9 pounds of Cartridge, I have enough powder to last for this shooting season and possibly into next year. Still though I need to determine another powder to go to when the GOEX runs out. Right now I will experiment with the Graf and Sons, and I have ordered a couple of lbs of KIK 1.5 Fg to try.


Dragon, I understand trying to determine which grade to use for a the 400gr bullet. My suggestion would be FFg of KIK - Schuetzen or Goex CTG with BR2 or Federal Match LP primers. These primers will reduce the ignition brisance and allow the powder column to deflagurate better.

And as for compression of the Cartridge, it is the only Goex powder that produces for me - either with a light compression (0.125) or hard as a brick (0.500). Cartridge is less dense than KIK but it is almost a straight FFg grade powder:

Goex Cartridge – (0542) 07MY04B - May 2007
20 mesh – 98.46% retained
30 mesh – 01.54% retained
Through – Trace

Goex Cartridge – (05-37) 02OC07B - Oct 2002
12 mesh – 0.62% retained
14 mesh – 0.03% retained
20 mesh – 97.54% retained
30 mesh – 01.70% retained
Through – 0.11%

[Arnie]

I use Swiss 1 1/2 in my 45/70 and it shoots very good . I tried KIK and loaded it one grain lighter and then in about 3 grain steps heavier than my swiss load .It shot bad till i got about 8 to 10 grains heavier which also gave alot more compression.It was also fouling pretty bad (even though i was wiping between shots) untill it got the the point of the 8 to 10 grians more ,then the heavy fouling went away also.It actually shot just as good as my swiss load on rams so the powder will work .I would start with heavy compression ,atleast as much as you would use on Goex.Arnie