Today got a French Mas 36 and a Turk K.Kale Type 38 Mauser.

[Hang Fire]

Saw an ad in the local White Sheet for a Mas 36 in 7.5 x 54, and a K.Kale Turk 8mm Mauser, guy wanted $250.00 each, after getting a look at them, got both for $400.00. I have seen them cheaper, but these I handled, got the bores cleaned, saw their over all condition and said what the heck.

[Uncle Grinch]

Not too shabby, you never really know what you're getting when you order.

There's a certain level of confidence when you get to handle before handing over the cash. That's worth something in itself!

Good luck in your new purchase.

[Hang Fire]

The Mas configuration and S/N puts it post WW2 production. I thought it had no import markings, but found it stamped in very small letters in a inconspicuous place, C.I.A. St, Albs. VT, but no sorry/dangerous .308 conversion or the stupid import safety as Century Arms once did them. Is absolutely in pristine unissued condition, the bore is bright and shiny, whereas I have read the bores were not plugged before being refurbed and put into storage and they got parkerized too.

‘See where before being issued for service they had to group at least 1.8” at 100 meters. The rear aperture sight is very good and the leaf is stamped “N” (centered and neutral) if the POA and POI did not match up, they had many different rear sight leafs that would have the aperture drilled off center and stamped how many mm up/down, left/right it took to compensate. They went to a little effort in attempting to make the rifle trooper tamper proof with the odd screw heads.

I understand there are a lot of do’s and don’ts for disassembly (mostly don’ts) and it is a good idea to not take disassembly too far. With the 22.5” barrel the little rifle sure handles nice, almost like a carbine and the concealed spike bayonet (to cut down on weight, it will become a safe queen) is a neat idea, withdraws and mounts quickly. It sure has very large diameter bolt to compensate for the rear lock up, see where a Mas 36 variant is still in use as military and police sniper rifles, some still in 7.5x54 but most are 7.62x51 arsenal chambered.

The K. Kale Turk is electric penciled as an import and the bore was almost plugged with cosmoline. The walnut wood has light handling marks but no cracks or missing chunks. All matching numbers but the bolt, so think I will have headspace checked before firing, or tie it down to a tree with a long string to the trigger, then check the brass if rifle survives.

Once got the bore cleaned, was pleasantly surprised to find it in very good condition, no pits with lands and grooves only slightly dark in corners. Haven’t disassembled yet, so will find out then if the rifle was made at the K.Kale Turkish armory or was a European mfg. retrofit to type 38, it is stamped 1945 on top of receiver. First thing I noticed was the rear sight sure has a tiny vee, was surprised to see this on a battle rifle, as one would have to draw a very fine sight when shooting, but have heard they are capable of good accuracy.

I am not very familiar with these rifles, so from those more knowledgeable, I would welcome your input. Especially as to cast boolit loads, choice of brass, etc.. (read a couple times that Prvi Partizan brass for this cartridge is not too good)

[bonza]

Prvi brass for the 7.5mm MAS is nice quality, but the factory loaded ammo has received reports of leaving sooty-necked cases (underpowered?). I've fired about eighty rounds of factory ammo (& bought 100 rounds of the Prvi/Graf unprimed cases), & don't recall anything untoward, & have reloaded some of the brass at least 5-6 times with no losses.

[JeffinNZ]

I'd rather like a MAS. Rather unique looking. Much like the Italian Carcano you can be sure no French rifle post WW 1 ever saw much use.........hehehe.

[Hang Fire]

There was only about 70,000 issued when the Nazis invaded France, but they later saw much use in Vietnam, Algeria, former French West Africa & etc. It was also the rifle of the French Foreign Legion for many years.

It was the last newly designed bolt action battle rife made, the innovation that went into it was practical efficiency unto itself.

Check out this video on complete disassembly of the Mas 1936.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1O2kMlEZc

[Multigunner]

While looking up Paul Mauser patents I found one of his earlier designs from the 1880's that looked almost exactly like the MAS 36.
I haven't seen any such Mauser that reached production, or a prototype.
I wonder if the French took the Mauser design drawings as part of the compensation payments after WW1 and finished developing it?
Spandau had reverse engineered a stolen Lebel when designing the Gew88, so turn about would have been fair play.

[RugerFan]

Sounds like you got a good buy. A lot of the Mas 36 I've seen for sale in good shape are around $350.00. Its on my short list of guns to get.

[Multigunner]

When they first began importing the MAS 36 there was so little available ammo, and that somewhat over priced, that very few shooters around here had any interest in them.
A friend came back from a nearby gunshow and mentioned that one of the sellers there had a table full of in the wrap MAS 36 and had not been able to sell a single rifle. The seller was so disgusted that he offered my friend his choice of two rifles for $20 each to cover his expenses at the gunshow (table space and such things didn't cost much at the time). My friend passed on the deal. I was very disapointed because I would have bought both rifles from him at a reasonable price.
My friend had spent much of his youth in North Africa and had little use for anything French.

Another old friend was offered a Vietnam bring back heavily altered MAS carbine.
The rifle had been fitted with an aftermarket thumb safety behind the bolt end cap.
Never found out much about that little rifle. No way of knowing if the alterations were done by the Viet Cong to captured rifles or if the rifle was one of the civilian sporters sold to French Colonials in Indo-China captured by the VC.
The fore end was shortened, but it looked like a factory job rather than a bubba'ed rifle.
The asking price was $50 , but again ammo was not available locally so he passed on it.


PS
Does anyone here know if a 7.62X51 cartridge can fit into the 7.5 French chamber?

I would not attempt to fire one like that, but its something I've wondered about.

[Hang Fire]

For a reloader, ammo was never a problem, a 7.5x55 FLSD converts 6.5x55 in a single pass. Bullet diameter is actually .308, not .307 as so often claimed.

Century Arms rechambered a lot of the 7.5x54's to 7.62x51, their QC was horrible and most were converted into junkers, some of which were dangerous. If done correctly, should be no problems with the conversion.

I am sure any of us gray beards can recall the days of super cheap gun buys. lived in Chicago 1961-66 taking apprenticeship. I haunted the Chicago Gun Center on Armitage Avenue where one could buy Trapdoors for 25-30 bucks. Rem Rolling blocks much cheaper yet, barrels of of milsurp Mausers, 03's and A3's about the same, brother-in-law got a mint Lee Enfield jungle carbine for 17 bucks, same gun today, a grand or more. But time marches on and as supply dries up, the prices increase accordingly.

Many today snicker and pass on the Mas 1936, having no idea what a great rifle they are missing.

[hardy]

Hi Multigunner,I typed in a message earlier but lost it&##!!computer!!! Well,yes 762x51 will fit but the extractor won,t pick it up.When I ran out of Swede brass I used 308,long boolit to engrave,etc.Works fine,slight bulge at web,very short neck but seals fine. I certainly would not fire a full house 7.62X51 in a 7.5X54 chamber but I bet some bright spark has.Be safe,enjoy your writings,Mike

[Hang Fire]

Sounds like you got a good buy. A lot of the Mas 36 I've seen for sale in good shape are around $350.00. Its on my short list of guns to get.

Think I lucked out with seeing the add. The same guy has a 1915 Steven's Favorite ,22 LR that wants an offer on, I am waiting awhile before doing so.

[Multigunner]

Hi Multigunner,I typed in a message earlier but lost it&##!!computer!!! Well,yes 762x51 will fit but the extractor won,t pick it up.When I ran out of Swede brass I used 308,long boolit to engrave,etc.Works fine,slight bulge at web,very short neck but seals fine. I certainly would not fire a full house 7.62X51 in a 7.5X54 chamber but I bet some bright spark has.Be safe,enjoy your writings,Mike

Thank you for the information.
Reason I asked is that occasionally the old saw about "they can use our ammunition but we can't use theirs" will come up in war stories.
Very few cartridges have even limited interchangeability,even if they will chamber they are usually very unsafe to fire in the larger chamber.
But then again 7.62 NATO cartridges have been fired in Garands that lost their chamber inserts. Hard on the rifle but apparently the shorter case still usually seals well enough to avoid massive gas escape.

I'd begun to wonder if VC might have sometimes used captured or lost 7.62 NATO ammo in the old MAS 36 rifles they had captured from the French.

I've run across a few stories about primitive reloading and ammo conversion methods used by Guerillas and Partizans where ammo was tough to find, especially ammo for long obsolete weapons.
The British once went to great lengths to attempt to curtail importation into countries they once controlled, in India, parts of Africa, etc, of components that could be used to reload military style cartridges.
If Berdan primers could be obtained in quantity or fabricated then salvaged 7.62 ammo would be a ready source of components for reloading the 7.5 cases on hand.

One story from Africa was about triming and resizing .30-06 ammo so it could be fired in FN 7.62 rifles.
An outfit cut off during the seige of a city ran almost completely out of 7.62 ammo, but had a few boxes of belted .30 ammo though their .30 MG was knocked out.
They used the chamber of one of the FN FAL barrels as a resizing die, pounding the pulled down 30-06 cases in with a rod and mallet. They then cut and trimmed the necks with a file.
After a reduced charge was poured bullets were crimped into the necks using pliers.
They made up enough ammo to give each of the native troops five rounds each.
This truly "afro-engineered" ammo would have been used if necessary during their escape attempt, but luckily they were able to slip past the enemy without firing a shot.

I made a primitive reloading outfit for .38 and .32 pistol cases. I still use it on occasion.
Its simply a 3/8" thick steel slab (I first used an aluminum plate) with holes drilled and polished to the proper case outside diameters for each. I resize the straight cases by driving the expanded case into the hole with a rawhide mallet. I then use a common pin punch to decap, driving the case back out of the hole at the same time.
Capping is done by using a dowel to drive the casehead down onto the fresh primer resting on the slab, the primer is seated flush.
Bullets were seated by using a small vise, but a "C" Clamp would work just as well.

[Hang Fire]

Finally got around to getting pics (they are not the best) of Mas 1936 and Turk K. Kale type 38 Mauser

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P1010375.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P10103772.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P1010379.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/P1010381.jpg

[3006guns]

That's a nice looking MAS.......mine is pre-import but a little on the dinged side, although I suppose it would clean up. Frankly, I like the design. It's so straight forward and rugged that it impresses me quite a bit.

The interesting thing is that I inherited at least 400 rds. of 7.5 French military ammo and 3 out of 5 are misfires due to bad primers! It would be worth it to buy 100 rds. of the Privi brass and load them with the bullets and powder from the military stuff, but with nice fresh Boxer primers.

Sigh.......another project.......:wink:

[Hang Fire]

I hear that about the French and Syrian ammo too. I take they are Beridan primed? I was reading where under no circumstances to reload the French rounds. seems they put an inner annular cut just forward of the base so it will split. Guess they did that to break insurgents from the habit of reloading and using it against them.

[Multigunner]

I hear that about the French and Syrian ammo too. I take they are Beridan primed? I was reading where under no circumstances to reload the French rounds. seems they put an inner annular cut just forward of the base so it will split. Guess they did that to break insurgents from the habit of reloading and using it against them.

Sounds more like the all too common anular stretch ring caused by excessive headspace. Its often a problem when reloading some brands of .303 British brass once fired in an Enfield with generous head gap.
I would suspect that the French cases that cracked on reloading were a bit on the brittle side, and perhaps undersized.

Milspec ammo is not constructed with reloading in mind, though some milspec cases are very well suited to reloading.

[Hang Fire]

From what I have read, the case failure after reloading was the result of intentional mfg. design.

[Linstrum]

From what I have read, the case failure after reloading was the result of intentional mfg. design.

Original French military ammo has an "abscission" groove cut on the inside of the case just above the head so that reloaded French military ammo can't be used. The idea was for once-fired cartridges to be weakened to the point where reloaded cartridges would undergo a head separation when the fired reloaded cartridge is extracted so that the cartridge body remains in the rifle chamber, effectively preventing the rifle from chambering another cartridge. Pretty good way of preventing the enemy from reloading spent brass by jamming up the rifle it is fired in.

Like has already been mentioned, I use new 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser brass to make 7.5x54 French cartridges, all that is required is to run the Swedish brass into a full length French resizing die. That's it! No trimming to length - just resize, load, and shoot. The original French projectile was 139 grains. I use 140 grain 0.308" U.S. Military empty tracer jackets and 147 grain fmjbt U.S. Military bullets. Cast boolits sized to around 0.309" that weigh between 150 and 180 grains will work just fine. Slug your bore and size your cast boolits about 0.001" to 0.002" over groove diameter.

I bought two unissued MAS 36 rifles about 15 years ago. I paid $49 each for them and they were still wrapped up in cheese cloth and Cosmoline. One rifle is a lousy 6" group shooter, the other is one of my most accurate rifles and is capable of 1/2 minute of angle with full house jacketed loads.

rl 1132

[Multigunner]

Original French military ammo has an "abscission" groove cut on the inside of the case just above the head so that reloaded French military ammo can't be used.

Thats interesting, though I can't see how they managed to do this on a mass production basis without causing a unacceptable percentage of seperations on first firing, especially if the same ammo was fired in a machinegun.

Cutting such a groove on the inner surface of a cartridge case would require a great deal of precision.
It would also probably have to be done before the shoulder and neck were formed.

Deliberately weakening a cartridge case that near the base does not sound very wise, but the French also eat snails which to me indicates they do a lot of odd ball things.

Not doubting you, I've heard of stranger things, but I'd apreciate it if you could point me to a source I could quote should the subject come up on another board.

You may have noticed that I collect obscure information, and search high and low for such tid bits.

[3006guns]

Whether there was an intentional annular groove or not, this is the first time that I've heard about it! Although the brass is Berdan primed, I had no thoughts about reloading and now I'm DEFINATELY going to turn the brass in for scrap once it's pulled down!

Thank you!

[Linstrum]

About the deliberately cut cartridge cases to prevent reloading, it would be interesting to locate an original French military cartridge and see just exactly what was done. The only thing I can find in print is from Handloader #148 November-December 1990 on what appears to be page 492 where it says:

"The 7.5 cases appear to have been finished with a sharp-edged bunter which leaves a sharp angle and thin area where the case body meets the web."

I also read it somewhere else, perhaps in Cartridges of the World.

rl 1133

[Multigunner]

This book
http://books.google.com/books?id=lptDAAAAIAAJ&oe=UTF-8
is about military cartridge manufacturing techniques up to 1916.
While the 7.5 cartridge was a later development, the text does mention that the French used very different techniques in manufacture of 8mm Lebel cartridges compared to those used by the U S and other countries at the time.

It could be that the differences in detail of drawing the case, and subsequent weakened juncture at the casehead, were not entirely intentional.