9mm leading

[fish0123]

I have been shooting cast boolits out of my glock 30 with fantastic results so I figured I would try my luck with the 9mm. Here are my specs for the boolit/load...

The mold is a Lee 125 grn flat nose with traditional lube grooves. Lube is 45/45/10 LLA/Johnson's Paste wax/ mineral spirits. The boolit is sized to .358 and lubed with two light coats of 45/45/10. I am using the .38 S&W powder thru expander die and using the lee factory crimp die to get rid of the bell. Load is 4.0 grains of Universal Clays and the OAL is 1.007".

I shot 25 rounds through my glock 26 and 25 rounds through my Ruger P95. The glock barrel is squeaky clean for about the first inch on the barrel, then the leading is severe towards the end. The ruger has leading all the way through the barrel, but the most severe is toward the muzzle end.

I have heard that leading toward the muzzle end can be caused by lube failure, but I am not sure what that means. More lube, less lube, different lube, tumble lube grooves needed?

So far I have tried pulling a boolit from a dummy round to see if there is any swaging but the boolit comes out at .358. Any thoughts on what to try next? I had no idea where to start with OAL on this load because I couldn't find any data for it, so I just seated it just past the lube groove, 1.007 just seems awful short to me.

[Wally]

Have a Taurus 99AF..same as with your Ruger, I tight cloth patch will clean it out relatively easy...unlike leading in my revolvers. I tried different lubes, alloys, bullet sizing...still leads up. The 9mm SA is a bear to work with using cast bullets. As jacketed bullets cost so much I use cast and just use a cleaning rod with a jag tip and a cloth patch to de-lead it. The leading doesn't seem to affect the accuracy as much as one would think. IMHO you may want to try another lube just to see if it helps. I've used NRA alox and now use 50% Church candle wax/50% lithium grease...makes no difference. I should add--I even used an RCBS 125 grain RN-GC bullet and it still leaded up on me! The bullet was made for the 9mm...

[fish0123]

Yeah the accuracy seemed fine in both guns, then again I'm not picking off bulls eyes, just torso sized steel plates at about 20 yards.


Have a Taurus 99AF..same as with your Ruger, I tight cloth patch will clean it out relatively easy...unlike leading in my revolvers. I tried different lubes, alloys, bullet sizing...still leads up. The 9mm SA is a bear to work with using cast bullets. As jacketed bullets cost so much I use cast and just use a cleaning rod with a jag tip and a cloth patch to de-lead it. The leading doesn't seem to affect the accuracy as much as one would think. IMHO you may want to try another lube just to see if it helps. I've used NRA alox and now use 50% Church candle wax/50% lithium grease...makes no difference. I should add--I even used an RCBS 125 grain RN-GC bullet and it still leaded up on me! The bullet was made for the 9mm...

[Wally]

I plink cans with mine at 20~30 yards...lately I've been using a Lee 90305 (120 RN) and a Lyman 358345 (115 SWC)...with 3.0 grains of Red Dot or Bullseye. The de-leading routine is no big deal. Most don't feel jacketed bullets are better in the 9mm...and they probably are....but I could not shoot as many rounds as I can w/ cast.

[fish0123]

I would be ok with just cleaning out the lead when I am done but it is pretty bad. I mean it looks like its caked on there pretty good.

Most of my shooting is just for practice for every day carry, so I am not too demanding as far as accuracy. As long as I can hit a human sized target from fairly close I'm happy.

BTW I forgot to mention these bullets are air cooled cast from straight WW alloy.

Tomorrow I'm gonna try a little lighter crimp and bump the load down to 3.8 grains and see what happens.


I plink cans with mine at 20~30 yards...lately I've been using a Lee 90305 (120 RN) and a Lyman 358345 (115 SWC)...with 3.0 grains of Red Dot or Bullseye. The de-leading routine is no big deal. Most don't feel jacketed bullets are better in the 9mm...and they probably are....but I could not shoot as many rounds as I can w/ cast.

[Wally]

I don't like it one bit either but plinking cans with the cast bullets I get decent accuracy. The lead builds up to a point and then reaches an equilibrium. IMHO it is no big deal to run a tight patch through after 50 shots or so. BTW i tried another barrel--made no difference at all! I have yet to be brave enough to try fire lapping...I probably should.

[MtGun44]

Try a real lube like NRA 50-50 or LBT blue. Those dip lubes are marginal, and if you are
having a lube failure - get MORE by filling the groove with a KNOWN GOOD lube like one
of the ones mentioned. I suggest pan lubing - it costs nothing except the lube and the
use of a cake pan or similar.

More and better quality lube.

Have you read the sticky on "Setting up a new 9mm for boolits"?

Bill

[GabbyM]

Try a real lube like NRA 50-50 or LBT blue. Those dip lubes are marginal, and if you are
having a lube failure - get MORE by filling the groove with a KNOWN GOOD lube like one
of the ones mentioned. I suggest pan lubing - it costs nothing except the lube and the
use of a cake pan or similar.

More and better quality lube.

Have you read the sticky on "Setting up a new 9mm for boolits"?

Bill

DITTO: What Bill Says.....

It's a rare event when a dip lube works for a 9mm or similar high pressure high velocity round. Not to mention the shallow rifling and fast twist of the 9mm. I personally use a modified Felix Lube. Modification is to use half the oils to make an almost hard lube requiring 118 degrees F to flow in a sizer. Still it contains enough castor oil to get the job done. Accuracy I’m sure would be better with a softer lube in most applications.

My load with Lee’s 125gr RNFP is 1.020” COL. However Lee has modified that bullet over the years. I load them using the barrel as a gage and allowing the bullet to bump the rifling and start to bring the case head up to the barrel hood. If hood is what you call that part of the barrel. That’s only .013” off your COL so it’s no big deal and certainly not your problem. You just need better grease.

With Felix lube I drive 9mm and other calibers to max and it actually cleans up a barrel. Any good lube will do that. Simple gun grease and bees wax will work.

You may want to try two coats of stright LLA allowing at least four days to dry before loading the bullets. However Pan lubing would IMHO be easier and as Bill says much better.

[Larry Gibson]

+1 on what Bill said or use the LLA straight.

Larry Gibson

[fish0123]

MtGun, I have read the "setting up for 9mm" it was a tremendous help.

Thanks for the tips everyone, I have never pan lubed so I will be busy reading up on that and let you know how it works out. It's just that the tumble lubing is so convenient and it works ok on my other calibers, but they are not 9mm so....

I tried the LLA straight and it is so darn sticky, that's why I tried the 45/45/10.

[fish0123]

Well I have some Beeswax on the way. Sitting in the garage is paraffin wax, white lithium grease, all kinds of oil, and there is probably Vaseline somewhere. What do you guys think is my best bet? I was thinking of trying to keep it simple and just do a 50/50 beeswax white lithium grease for pan lubing. I could order some alox 350 for the NRA formula but I would rather use what I have if you guys think it will work ok for the 9mm.

All I need is for it to work and not lead, I don't care about smoke or pin point accuracy.

[6.5 mike]

I shoot the same boolit in my hi-power clone, wq, sized & C red lube via pan. No trouble at all, all the patch cleans is a bit of powder fowling.

[MtGun44]

Experimentation is great. If you want the shortest route to success, go with NRA 50-50
or LBT soft blue. If you want to experiment, there are other lube mixes that will work,
you might spend a while scrubbing lead out before you stumble upon one, but they
are definitely there.

I'd suggest going the direct to the answer route first and once you have the problem
solved - THEN start experimenting, but everyone has their own approach and there
are definitely lots of other lubes that can work.

[fish0123]

Just an update on the progress of the 9mm situation...

Thanks for the help guys, the lube was definitely the problem. There is now very little leading as apposed to severe leading before in the glock. I'm not worried about it though because it cleans out really easily. The ruger p95 is still leading more than I am comfortable with however. I would say it is moderate down the entire length of the barrel, with the worst at the first inch of the barrel.

After a little experimentation, 1lb beeswax, 1lb paraffin, 1lb Vaseline, 1 tbsp STP oil treatment is what I am using. I got the recipe from some video on YouTube.

[MtGun44]

Buy some real lube and the problem will go away. After you have the problem solved,
then you can play around with mixing your own. I don't understand why folks resist
using a known good lube and try some unknown mix. Spend the $5 on some NRA 50-50
or LBT soft blue. These lubes have worked under wide ranging conditions and many
different calibers for decades to earn their accolades - they WORK.

Bill

[.5mv^2]

I have a PF9 which would lead and tumble the bullets (105g Lee SWC). I have changed to a slower powder WSF and it solved it pretty much. I can't tell you for certain why as all my loads are in the normal range. I felt that 231 and Unique may have accelerated the bullets too fast.

[garym1a2]

My Glock 21sf shoots lead very well, 200 rounds and its clean with 5 swips of the brush. My Glock22 will lead up in 50 rounds with factory barrel. With my Storm lake barrel is shoots clean even over a 250 round match. I use decent lubes in a RCBS LAM.
With the 9mm and 40 in Glocks I have gotten good results with aftermarket barrels but have given up on the other

[fish0123]

Ok I gotcha mtgun, thanks. I will try some nra lube and see, then if worst comes to worst I'll try a slower powder.

[MtGun44]

I'm not trying to say to avoid experimentation, but I recommend getting the load working
properly by going down the known paths, and THEN start experimenting - one thing
at a time. You can have the fun of mixing up your own stuff and maybe saving
some bucks. It just seems a shame to wander in the desert trying to find a good
load when the answer is known.

Best of luck! And be aware that there are LOTS of homemade lubes that work - but also
a whole bunch that suck. ;-)

Bill

[Who's this Guy ?]

I shoot a Sig P6 with a 9mm 125gr. cast bullet behind bullseye and to keep the leading down every couple of magazines or so I will fire an FMJ and make my last shots of my shooting session with FMJ's and it makes for an easier cleanup of lead deposits in the rifiling.

[MtGun44]

My P6 has a clean and shiny bore after shooting 10-20 mags of my Lee 356-120-TC sized
to .358 and lubed with NRA 50-50. No lead on the bore other than a microthin uniform
slight gray tint, no buildup or streaking at all.

Bill

[Who's this Guy ?]

My P6 has a clean and shiny bore after shooting 10-20 mags of my Lee 356-120-TC sized
to .358 and lubed with NRA 50-50. No lead on the bore other than a microthin uniform
slight gray tint, no buildup or streaking at all.

Bill

Have you tried Lee Alox?

[fish0123]

Are you tumble lubing? If so I haven't had much luck with tumble lubing with 45/45/10 or straight lla in anything but 45 acp. It works for a lot of people just not me.

[MtGun44]

I tried LLA ( AKA 'mule snot') a couple of times, had terrible inaccuracy with
light loads in a .45-70, marginal results at best in a .30-30, and acceptable results
with .45 ACP. I really hated having the sticky crud all over the front of the boolit,
plus I do not like the stink.

It appears to have attraction to the new caster that does not have a lubrisizer and
is looking for a quick and easy path to workable ammo, especially for a pistol.
I can see the real benefit for the newbie to get started without a large investment
in hardware. LLA can clearly work, we have many members using it, but from
the posts I see, it appears to be a marginal lube system that will fail if you move
outside of it's capability area. Some are huge fans of the system, I am not.

IMO, pan lubing with conventional lube groove designs is about the same initial setup
cost (near zero) and slightly more effort to do, much less mess, leaves the boolit cleaner
and is a more certain route to success. Frequently LLA designs have been failing
in 9mm and .40 S&W applications, although we do have plenty of reports of success,
too. It seems to work most reliably on the lower pressure and velocity cartridges like
.38 Spl and .45 ACP where the demands on the system are lower.

I have RCBS and Lyman lubrisizers plus a couple of Stars on my bench and have
little interest or time to fiddle with it now. I am set up to easily run conventional
designs and am sticking to that now.

Bill

[fish0123]

You are definitely right, the only reason I used it was because it was the absolute cheapest option. I have to admit I was happy with how quick the process was, but if it doesn't work it doesn't work. My next purchase is going to be a lubrisizer. When pan lubing, even with the silicone pans and a steady hand I always manage to make a mess, then I have to wipe each boolit down before they go through the dies.

[pistonwolf]

Could we maybe be getting "universal" and "clays" powders confused?

[P Flados]

I am also fighting getting cast to work in a finicky 9. With the factory barrel, my boy's Glock 17 did badly with lots of stuff tried including low power (as low as 3.3 titegroup & 3.5 promo), lead hardness (8 bhn range lead to COWW), boolit size (0.360, 0.3575, 0.3563), boolit style (Lee 110 RN, Lee 125 RNFP), seating depth (0.970" to 1.20" OAL), crimping (seat + crimp in one pass, seat first then medium crimp, seat first and then only remove flare with crimp die) and lubes (traditional lube, LLA, BLL and then even ASBB HF Red PC).

We obtained an after market barrel. New problems were created and leading is still an issue. The new barrel had next to nothing for a throat (pretty much just a taper on the rifling) and a sharp edge an the end of the chamber.

I was getting intermittent failures to fully chamber (offset primer strike) with resultant FTFs and some FTFs with center hit primers. The chambering problems were found to be caused by accumulation of lead shavings at the front of the chamber. The center hit FTFs were found to be a primer seating issue caused by range pick up mixed brass in combination with a near worn out round Lee priming tool. I got this under control with a couple of trips to the range and no FTFs. Solutions were to start using a different priming tool and to make sure to not have lead accumulation at the front of the chamber.

The issue with lead at the front of the chamber was improved by lapping in a bevel to get rid of the sharp edge at the front of the chamber. It probably needs more work, but I am reluctant to do any more than absolutely needed.

For the Lee 110, there is now no shaving at all. Unfortunately, my PC coating and 0.3563 sizing still ends up with some leading even at 3.5 grs of Titegroup where function is not consistent. I really need to be in the 3.7 - 4.0 gr range for reliable function. I have some 3.7 gr Titegroup test loads ready to try. Two tests will be with with 50 round of PC and sizes of 0.3575" and 0.360". I also have 80 rounds with boolits sized at 0.3563" and BLL on top of PC (I will try anything).

The Lee 125 RNFP will function with loads that do not lead, but it still shaves. I am going to go back and try some more different OALs and different bullet diameters.

For earlier discussion of my 9 mm struggles, see post 17 at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?336898-Glocks-lead&p=4092529#post4092529

[gwpercle]

I stopped the 9mm leading problem before it started by gettin a gas checked boolit mould.
NOE 124 grain , 358 , truncated cone , gas check design. I wanted to load them warm with a soft alloy , I don't powder coat. The gas check works perfectly with COWW - pure lead, 50/50, air cooled. Works like a charm in 4 different 9mm's!
Lubed with Lithi-Bee . This one also works wonderful in 357 magnum loads !
Gary

[fecmech]

For what it's worth, my 9MM experience. I loaded for 4 different 9's and had no real problems with leading. I did get very light streak leading with the max velocity loads but it was no worse after 100 shots than after 1 shot. Accuracy at 25 yds out of both my Khar and BHP were <3" with max loads( in the BHP that was 1250 fps. I think the Lyman M die (or equivalent) is important in loading for the 9 as without that deep case expansion cast bullets get sized down by the case. Excessive taper crimping also makes bullets smaller, I basically removed the bell at the case mouth and called it good. When I wanted speed I used Longshot or Blue Dot or other similar burn rate powders. I never did much with fast powders like Bullseye or Red Dot because I got leading and accuracy went south before I got to 1000 fps. I claim no expertise with the 9MM but I just thought I'd post what's worked for me.

[robertbank]

Buy some real lube and the problem will go away. After you have the problem solved,
then you can play around with mixing your own. I don't understand why folks resist
using a known good lube and try some unknown mix. Spend the $5 on some NRA 50-50
or LBT soft blue. These lubes have worked under wide ranging conditions and many
different calibers for decades to earn their accolades - they WORK.

Bill

This, read then heed. While a fan of frlix lube lately I have been using a commercial soft lube or Magna lube which is a hard lube. All the commercial lubes work just fine in about seven different 9MM pistol designs I shoot regularly. Unless there are barrel problems the 9MM should shoot lead without leading if sized properly and shot with a decent lube.

Take Care

Bob

[GooseGestapo]

I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but my solution to leading/inaccuracy with cast in the 9mm was solved by adding some 95/5 lead free solder (95% tin, 5% antimony) to acww.

I use the Lee 105gr SWC, 120gr TC, and 125gr RFN at .357" w/SPG lube in my S&W Performance Ctr. 9's and get accuracy equal to jacketed. I haven't shot a jacketed bullet in competition since the NRA eliminated the factory ammo requirement for the Distinguished matches. From a Ransom rest, the Perf. Ctr. guns will shoot the cast boolits 2" at 50yds.
The guns still shoot as good as new 15yrs ago.
Me, not so much...

[fecmech]

The guns still shoot as good as new 15yrs ago.
Me, not so much...
Amen to that! I find my scores dropping in Hunters pistol a bit but my sporting clays is still about the same. Shotguns seem to be the last refuge for "old f**ts" judging by the age of my squad mates!

[youngmman]

You're absolutely right on the lube issue, IMHO.

When I started casting in the early 1980's I called Veral Smith at LBT and he helped me with the molds I needed and suggested I use the LBT Blue lube. I never used any other lube and don't regret it.

[oldsalt444]

I'm not a Glock owner, so forgive my ignorance. Isn't there a reason why Glock says NOT to shoot lead boolits in the factory barrel ? The polygonal rifling tends to lead up quickly and destroy accuracy or something like that ? I even heard a silly rumor about a Glock blowing up from shooting lead. Sounds far-fetched to me. If it were me, I'd load a very hard cast bullet and add a GC.

[dragon813gt]

I'm not a Glock owner, so forgive my ignorance. Isn't there a reason why Glock says NOT to shoot lead boolits in the factory barrel ? The polygonal rifling tends to lead up quickly and destroy accuracy or something like that ? I even heard a silly rumor about a Glock blowing up from shooting lead. Sounds far-fetched to me. If it were me, I'd load a very hard cast bullet and add a GC.

Every manufacturer says to not shoot reloads. I'm sure most of us here just ignore that disclaimer.

[DerekP Houston]

Every manufacturer says to not shoot reloads. I'm sure most of us here just ignore that disclaimer.

^, it voids the warranty. Oh well.

[P Flados]

Oldsalt,

Glock rifling is different, the "land" portion is more of a crescent shape that protrudes inward from the groove region.

The factory Glock barrel I was working with also had a larger than typical groove diameter, 0.3565" if I recall correctly.

I have not yet been able to get a cast bullet load that would not lead badly in the factory barrel. I think that the biggest issue was more the groove diameter combined with my inability to stop the cases from sizing my boolits to less than groove diameter. However, regardless of reason, most if not all of my "top ten" cleaning sessions with "most lead removal effort required" have been for this one gun. And this is with plenty of other guns/loads that leaded pretty bad (mostly in my pre-PC days).

The above is my personal experience that sets the stage for the following.

In general, some have good luck with cast in a 9mm, some have mixed results, some (like me) find it their "biggest challenge", some just give up. The unique Glock rifling, combined with the possibilty of have more than normal percentage of guns with a bigger than typical bore (my guess based on a sample of one), provide reason behind what I feel is a common belief that at least a portion of the 9s made by Glocks lead very badly and possibly to an extent more than other makers.

While reading everything I could find on Glock leading, I found where excessive lead buildup from shooting cast was blamed on a one or more kabooms.

If the "some Glocks lead badly" position is considered by many as "common knowledge", then the people at Glock are probably smart enough to not try to say they are "no worse than other makers" unless they have convincing proof (I doubt this is possible). With the above situation, and a few kabooms in guns that were used with cast, the reason for the Glock position is a no brainer. For the same reason, the amount of people noting their position is also pretty obvious.

[pistonwolf]

Stock glock barrel's don't stabilize heavy cast projectiles well, Hickok45 has a youtube video on this, and he even had some shots key hole. Then the chamber's in these are a bit on the "loose" side of town, this adds to reliability, but is hell on brass. When hand loading, we sometimes make "gallery" loads, being lower in pressure, will they have enough pressure to expand the brass to fill that larger chamber? I run the alpha wolf in my G26, tight chamber, slugs out to .356, and puts the sights right where I like them. I find the stock barrel to shoot a bit high.