Glass bedding - newbie questions

[Tokarev]

Shot Stevens 200 in 308 yesterday. Great little gun with good potential, 1 MOA vertical group size and 2-2 1/2 MOA horizontal. Apparently stock forend is so flimsy, that gusts of wind flex it left and right.
So I decided to try myself at glass bedding and here's the questions:

1. What should I consider a good deal on epoxy? looking on the eBay, sufficient quantity would cost around $50 delivered. Should I look to buy cheaper local or go with eBay prices in that range?

2. Assuming that I should go with 'construction strength' or 'high impact' resin. Or would any resin do?

3. De-greasing - what's the best method to de-grease the areas of the stock where action is mounted and the forend? There is some gun oil there.

4. Filler - glass beads from the sandblasting store or fiberglass?

Any other tips always welcome.
Thank you!

[Lead Fred]

Brownells has a complete kit for around $20 bucks, Midway has it too.

Has everything you need.

[Ben]

Tokarev

You better read the instructions that come with the Glass Bedding kit REAL GOOD.

You get two and three chances on some things ......but not with glass bedding.

I've seen people have to remove the stock with an ax because they failed to read everything well and fill ALL recess holes with modeling clay.

[flounderman]

I just use regular fiberglass. I cut glass mat into fluff for filler. I have used acra glass and it's good. scrape off any varnish or grease spots where you want the glass to adhere. take about an 1/8 bit and drill shallow holes where you are going to glass. lots of them. you need release on all the metal surfaces. the screws need to be coated and I put release in the action screw holes. you can use modeling clay to fill places you don't want glass running into. be absolutely sure you have all metal that will contact the glass well coated with release. especially the screws. don't overtighten the screws. you can tighten them and then back them off a half or full turn. normally I do the rear tang area and the front of the receiver, ahead and behind the recoil lug. a couple of inches of the barrel to where it isn't straight anymore. don't be in a hurry to pull the action out of the stock. leess chanch of pulling the glass loose if you let it cure overnight. I relieve the area behind the tang and the bottom of the recoil lug recess after it is dry, and the barrel chanel so a dollar bill will slide under the barrel. you can mask off areas outside the stock, like checkering. this is how I have been doing it for probably 55 years.

[waksupi]

The wind may be pushing the bullet around, but it sure isn't flexing your barrel.

[arcticbreeze]

You mentioned a flimsy stock so if you are shooting from a rest supporting the forearm glass bedding won't help a great deal. To realize the benefits of bedding you really need a stock capable of supporting the weight of the barrel and only contacting the action and the first inch or so of the barrel. You may want to think about a better stock first. Synthetic stocks of sufficient strength are outrageously expensive imo but I have had very good success with some of the Boyd's wood stocks and they are very reasonable. At that point you will have a solid chassis that will really bennefit from the glass bedding. As Ben mentioned you only have one shot so read the instructions and be very sure you have taped or filled every recess that could inhibit release. I had one that just would not come loose after the Devon set up and as a last resort I put the entire rifle in the deep freezer for a couple of hour and with some brute strength and many choice words it finally broke free but at that point I was pretty worried that I ruined my model70.

[Frank46]

The release agent you get with the brownells kit is your friend. After you plug all the holes with modeling clay, put the release agent anywhere it will even remotely come in contact with the epoxy. This includes the parts of the receiver above the stock line and also the barrel. Also includes the tang of the receiver, mag well ect. Frank

[GRid.1569]

Tokarev

and fill ALL recess holes with modeling clay.

I've often wondered is there an easy way to clear out the clay afterwards?....

...it's been the thing that's put me off trying a bedding....

R. Chris

[arcticbreeze]

I've often wondered is there an easy way to clear out the clay afterwards?....

...it's been the thing that's put me off trying a bedding....

R. Chris

The modeling clay cleans out pretty easily with some spray type gun scrubber or CLP, I use a toothpick to get the chunks out. That is probably one of the easier parts of the job. If you are worried about that I have also used small circle sticker to cover them instead. You will get a paper thin void right there but I don't think it is anything big enough to worry about.

Marc

[Nobade]

Unless you have changed the stock on that rifle you have a thermoplastic stock. Epoxy won't really stick to that material. It works great with thermosets and wood, but not thermoplastics. Kind of like trying to glue something to an ice cube. I know all sorts of people try to "bed" those stocks by cutting mechanical locks into them and such, but for the price of the epoxy you would be money ahead to buy a real stock for it, and proceed to fit and bed that.

[Tokarev]

Lots of advise on the things I know - i.e. how to apply epoxy.
I've been making model planes and boats since I was 8.

But nothing on the stuff I am not familiar with, i.e. what price to consider reasonable in North America.

I can't buy from Brownells or Midway - they don't ship to Canada.

The factory stock on Stevens 200 must have changed over time, because the 223 calibre rifle I bought 2 or 3 years earlier than 308 has more rigid stock. Its forend supported by a bipod is not affected by the wind and the groups are round shaped. 308 groups are horizontal lines and I can see looking at the rifle from the sides how end of the barrel vibrates from wind twisting the forend. This is indisputable fact, alas.

[GRid.1569]

The modeling clay cleans out pretty easily with some spray type gun scrubber or CLP, I use a toothpick to get the chunks out. That is probably one of the easier parts of the job. If you are worried about that I have also used small circle sticker to cover them instead. You will get a paper thin void right there but I don't think it is anything big enough to worry about.

Marc

"small circle sticker " that's a great idea... sometimes the simplest ideas are the best....

Thanks for you thoughts....

R.
Chris

[arcticbreeze]

Lots of advise on the things I know - i.e. how to apply epoxy.
I've been making model planes and boats since I was 8.

But nothing on the stuff I am not familiar with, i.e. what price to consider reasonable in North America.

I can't buy from Brownells or Midway - they don't ship to Canada.

The factory stock on Stevens 200 must have changed over time, because the 223 calibre rifle I bought 2 or 3 years earlier than 308 has more rigid stock. Its forend supported by a bipod is not affected by the wind and the groups are round shaped. 308 groups are horizontal lines and I can see looking at the rifle from the sides how end of the barrel vibrates from wind twisting the forend. This is indisputable fact, alas.

I apologize for not answering your specific questions and do not know where to purchase outside of the US. My advice was meant to help because many have tried to improve the stock without success. One even went as far as adding carbon fiber arrow shafts to try to stiffen the forend. You guys must have some pretty strong winds there or maybe I am not understanding correctly. Are you saying that the wind is moving your bullet impact or are saying that you can see the stock move because of the wind when it is just sitting there. I am interested because I have never heard of or experienced anything like that with the Stevens or any other for that matter.

Marc

[waksupi]

I repeat, the wind is not bending your barrel! That is a silly notion.

[john hayslip]

If you have a channel under the forearm you might even put in a piece of wood to save weight and the cost of the fiberglass to fill it.
Johnson's paste wax for cars is a good release agent if you run out of the stuff they put in the kit. Alcohol or fingernail polish remover are fair to middlin grease removers - I'm having a brain fart and can't remember polish remover's proper name.
If you think you do everything right and you still stick the rifle in the stock putting it in a freezer will usually break it loose as the metal contracts more than the stock. I purchased a rifle that had that problem and got a good friend who had a restaurant let me store it in his freezer over night and it solved the problem.

[Coffeecup]

Alcohol or fingernail polish remover are fair to middlin grease removers - I'm having a brain fart and can't remember polish remover's proper name.

Acetone?

[Nobade]

Lots of advise on the things I know - i.e. how to apply epoxy.
I've been making model planes and boats since I was 8.

But nothing on the stuff I am not familiar with, i.e. what price to consider reasonable in North America.

I can't buy from Brownells or Midway - they don't ship to Canada.

Well, I make bedding epoxy (Probed 2000) and do regularly ship to Canada. It is more difficult since I have to go to the post office and fill out a bunch of paperwork as opposed to letting UPS pick it up at the shop, but we do ship there.

I am also surprised Midway won't ship it to you - they told me at the SHOT show that they are working hard on a whole international shipping department. It may be a question of when they get that going, but they should sure sell a lot of stuff if they can manage it.

[Tokarev]

I repeat, the wind is not bending your barrel! That is a silly notion.

Did I ever say barrel? I thought I've been saying stock all along.

BTW, Boyds will not ship stocks over $100 to Canada too. Their wood stock is $115 :( and I am not into laminate which is $97

[waksupi]

I use the turn bolts, and count the number of revolutions to seat the barreled action, before adding the glass. I then count the same turns, to be sure I am returning to a neutral bedding.

[waksupi]

Did I ever say barrel? I thought I've been saying stock all along.




Okay, the wind is not bending the stock, either.

[canyon-ghost]

I always heard that a gunsmith is cheaper. That's what I would do, personally. But, if you are shooting in crosswinds, it isn't the rifle.

[Tokarev]

Screws from Ikea on the right? They are very handy in the shop.




http://home.earthlink.net/~stockcarver/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/beddingm70.jpg

[David2011]

There are a couple of alternatives for the epoxy that might be available locally. MarineTex epoxy putty is a thick, white epoxy. WEST Systems is readily available at marine supply stores as is WEST's milled glass fibers. The milled glass fibers add tremendous strength to epoxy as well as making it thicker. Either can be dyed brown or black with fiberglass gelcoat pigment, available at fiberglass supply houses. Definitely pay attention to the suggestions to plug all openings with modeling clay or the air conditioning putty and coat the metal with 3 coats of PVA (PolyVinyl Alcohol) based mold release. It's easy to wash off after bedding.

My personal preference for technique is to make sure there's enough room between the wood and metal that it's not all squeezed out when the screws are tightened. I like to put 2 layers of pipe wrapping tape on the barrel's bottom and sides, ahead of the chamber. I bed the chamber area but no farther forward than the chamber. After masking the stock to protect it from epoxy I prefer to not tighten the screws fully but stop tightening as soon as resistance is felt. That will assure that you have epoxy fully supporting the metal after cleaning the mold release and tape off of the metal. The tape will ideally cause the barrel to be free floated at that point but sometimes it's necessary to remove more wood in the forearm. A jar of inletting black is a great investment in fitting the metal to the wood and making sure ther's not any contact where you do't want it.

David

[Bill*]

I don't see why "J B Weld" from an auto parts store couldn't double as bedding either.

[Nobade]

I don't see why "J B Weld" from an auto parts store couldn't double as bedding either.

A lot of people use it, but it has a poor consistency for bedding guns and also shrinks too much. But it is easily available and comes in black.

[FrankG]

Devcon Plastic Steel putty works good too and is strong. I use the Agraglas Gel from Brownells quite a bit but pitch the release agent that comes with it . Never have liked it ! I use Aero Paste Wax for the release and it works great ! Wax all the metal up , buff it down and wax it up again without buffing and its ready to go in stock . And a big +1 on the plugging the holes ! They become anchors ! Dont forget to treat the action bolts/screws and trigger guard too.

[Tokarev]

Okay, the wind is not bending the stock, either.

I don't know how to post a video here because I despise youtube (and not sure the camera can capture what I need), but I can describe it in these terms: if this new model Stevens 200 is sitting on the bench with bipod and gusts of wind are blowing, one can observe the muzzle rattling in crescent motions. The origin of this rattle is the forend that is simply not sturdy enough.

I don't understand why there is no issue with my older Stevens 200 in 223. It is older than 308 by about 4 years and its forend is sturdier and better shaped (straight, whereas 308 stock's forend is bent so that its very end almost touches left side of the barrel).

[geargnasher]

If the wind is gusting across the gun enough to make observable movements to the muzzle, what do you think it's doing to the bullets on the way to the target? When a boolit travels through moving masses of air, it moves with the air. If the air is moving sideways, it will carry the boolit with it. 2-3" wind drift at 100 yards in a 20MPH wind is quite typical, just ask anyone who shoots in Wyoming.

If you want to mess with the gun, my advice is pitch the stock and get a real one, or use bags in front of the mag well instead of out on the end of the forearm. If you insist on the bipod, simply relieve the barrel channel enough to embed a large rat-tail file using JBWeld and lots of mechanical locks. That will stiffen the forend. Also, if your bipod has rubber feet, ditch them and get something more solid.

If you get a stock that can be properly bedded, just about every post so far contains jewels of wisdom.

I use the Brownell's kit, and only use the release coating that comes with it for screws and screw holes, for everything else steel I use Johnson's Paste wax, two coats, buffed between coats. Modeling clay is a godsend for any betting project, even with gel epoxy, and it's a cinch to clean off. Use 3M painter's tape, the stuff made for terminating paint lines, on the top edges of the stock, checkering, etc. Cover every part of the outside of the stock with paper/tape/rags whatever so no wood is exposed. The stuff WILL get on your fingers and get tracked everywhere. Use vinegar to wipe off epoxy spills but keep it off the bluing because it will remove it. Waksupi gives excellent advice about setting the pretension on the action screws, using studs is the best way to go, and count the turns twice before putting in the epoxy.

Gear

[Bill*]

Actually, I would look carefully at the bipod mounting.

[gwpercle]

If this is your first time to bed an action be very careful. Back in the 60's I had a 1903-A3 Springfield, ordered a glass bedding kit and nice walnut semi-finished sporter stock from Herter's. I followed every step , just as out lined, in the directions. I applied release agent to every surface, even used Johnson's Paste Wax for additional release. Well let me tell you that stuff got everywhere, it ran into every crack and crevice and even got into the threaded holes....guess what ...release agent don't work like it's advertised. I had to get a cold chisel and beat the stock screws out ruining them. I didn't think the barreled action was going to survive the beating it took from seperating it from the stock.

About 6 mos. ago I got a Dremel Moto-Tool and spent several weekends grinding out all that fiberglass bedding. I am not sure what I am going to do with it , I still have the Springfield rifle and it's a nice piece of walnut and I want to use it , but you can bet your bottom dollar I wont be trying the fiberglass and epoxy thing again. My problem may have been in trying to bed the action and barrel all in one step. Another thing I didn't count on was how runny the epoxy was ( maybe I used too much ) but it got into and onto everything...it was a MESS. Wear rubber gloves. If I try anything it will be epoxy putty and just do a small area at a time.

gary

[FrankG]

gwpercle, that stuff was runny .............like honey or thick syrup ! The acraglas gel is a lot easier to work with .

[Tokarev]

If the wind is gusting across the gun enough to make observable movements to the muzzle, what do you think it's doing to the bullets on the way to the target?

There is a big difference in the wind inside the berms and on the firing line for one thing.
Also there is a huge difference in surface of the bullet and rifle/stock and also there is resonance.

[375RUGER]

if this new model Stevens 200 is sitting on the bench with bipod and gusts of wind are blowing, one can observe the muzzle rattling in crescent motions. The origin of this rattle is the forend that is simply not sturdy enough.



Lose the bipod. Replace with sand/shot bags.
What kind of bench? portable or stationary?

[odfairfaxsub]

okay, the wind is not bending the stock, either.
roflcopter

[Tokarev]

Bought a Boyds thumbhole stock.
They would not ship any orders over $100 to Canada, so I had to get just the stock first.
Now I need the extended screws that are $4 but shipping is $40, so I'll probably end up making my own screws - there is no way I'll pay that much for shipping of something that fits in a letter.

Boyds stock required quite some inletting for the magazine.
Initially the magazine would not feed at all, as it sat too far back.
The rib at the front of the mag well that the front notch of the magazine body is supposed to sit on had to be completely removed and a new cavity had to be cut for the notch. The red arrow left of the words 'Mag Well' is just below the rib that had to be removed.
http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/spec-sav-10-cent.jpg
The front corners of the mag well had to be reduced in radius to allow the whole magazine body move slightly forward. The rear of the mag well, where the red arrow to the right of the words 'Mag Well' is pointing, needed a 0.03" shim that I made from SS top cover of an old hard drive.
Also the mag well was too narrow and it squeezed the magazine body so that the lips were too close to each other, so even though the mag was in the right place and the bolt engaged the top round, the case butt would slip under the bolt as soon as the bullet went up the feed ramp.
Had to shave some material off the left and right walls of the mag well, checking with a caliper that the lips in the Boyds stock were as far apart as in the Stevens plastic stock.
Now the feed is fine, although not as smooth as in the Stevens OEM stock yet.

Need a trigger guard too, because Stevens trigger guard is not the same as that of Savage 10, for which Boyds stock was designed. Midway is on backorder and Brownells wants to charge $30 for shipping. These shipping charges must be killing the US economy, at least the exports.

[Bren R.]

There's only a small difference between the Savage Model 10 guard and the Stevens 200:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_219884fea2ba2c4ad6.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5678)

Which can be made up with a spacer - at least in the composite stock:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_219884fea2c017f46e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5679)

The hooks on the Stevens guard aren't needed.

Bren R.

[Tokarev]

Savage is at the top and Stevens is on the bottom, thus requires cutting, but there is a steel insert in the Stevens guard, so it's as good as junk.

Good news is that front action screw is the same between wood and plastic stock. Only the rear screw has to be changed and I just picked up a 2" 1/4x28 socket head screw from the local industrial supply. Just need to trim it by about .225"

[Bren R.]

Savage is at the top and Stevens is on the bottom, thus requires cutting, but there is a steel insert in the Stevens guard, so it's as good as junk.

Good news is that front action screw is the same between wood and plastic stock. Only the rear screw has to be changed and I just picked up a 2" 1/4x28 socket head screw from the local industrial supply. Just need to trim it by about .225"

I've had to do it, thus why I have the pictures and the drawing...

Made the mistake of having someone else bed a stock for me (since I hate doing it) and the ape crushed the front t/guard screw so hard he mashed the guard to the point where the front screw would extend up into the chamber.

Had the choice of trying to find a new Model 200 guard or using a Model 10 guard with that spacer under the front screw.

Not sure what you mean when you say the Savage 10 guard needs cutting... that's the one that's "short" on the front screw... it needs a spacer, not to be cut.

Bren R.

[Bren R.]

Oh wait... I get it... you're mounting a Model 200 in a stock for a Model 10... I didn't read the whole project.

Bren R.

[Tokarev]

Not sure what you mean when you say the Savage 10 guard needs cutting... that's the one that's "short" on the front screw... it needs a spacer, not to be cut.
Bren R.
Never said that!
We are moving from Stevens plastic stock to Savage wood stock.
Stevens trigger guard is too tall at the action screw. I could have cut the step that protrudes upward in your bottom picture, but that's not possible due to steel bushing inside it.
Savage guard needs a small spacer indeed, but nowhere near as thick as the step on the Stevens guard.
This is what Stevens guard looks like when ground to fit the cavity in the Savage stock:

[andremajic]

I couldn't find any modelers clay around here but found a suitable substitute, with the exact same properties as modelers clay.

Plumbers putty. It's cheap and can be found at all the home improvement stores for a little over a buck a container.

Waterproof too!

[Tokarev]

When I was a kid attending airplane modeling club, we used playdough to block off epoxy.
Once casting was done, washed it off with gasoline.

[Tokarev]

Upgraded Stevens stock to Boyds stock and Brownells steel trigger guard.
Before and after (before is my 223 Stevens still in plastic, after is 308 in laminate now)
I did not even have to replace the action screws as Boyds web site suggested.
The front action screw only screwed in by 3-4 turns in plastic, and same in laminate stock.
The rear screwed in by 5-6 turns in plastic and 3-4 in laminate. I think this is enough and does not justify buying extended screws.

[xd4584]

I don't see why "J B Weld" from an auto parts store couldn't double as bedding either.

I used this on my marlin 917V. It worked very well for me. I used the Kwik weld that solidifies in 4 minutes. Yes I am inpatient at times. I had to get it ready for a match the next day at the local gun club

[44man]

Waksupi is right. But I had the first Rem with a plastic stock. It was WHIMPY like a hunk of rubber against the barrel.
I pillar bedded it and the cut the fore end out to steel bed a length of stainless aircraft tubing in it. That fixed it. stiff as heck and free floated the barrel.
Use Accra Glass, or gel or steel bed. I steel bed recoil lugs.

[karlrudin]

Very nice looking conversion from plastic to laminated wood. I'm glad I'm not the only one to convert a "nut" gun. Mine started out as a Savage 110 large action in 7mm Magnum converted to 7mm-08 Remington. My aftermarket stock came from Richards MicroFit. It my first time bedding a rifle also. I already knew I was going to bed the action to I hogged it over size. Drilled out the action screw holes and opened up the recoil lug area. Used lamp rod for the pillar bedding, cause the threads hold the epoxy better to the wood than slick tubes. Used JB Weld to skim bed the action and partially filled the recoil lug area. Used Vaseline on all exposed metal after filling all voids with clay. All these items easy to get. And on the cheap. They told me I would need different action screws also. Not after putting in the lamp rod. Basically my whole barreled action is free floated. PS, you didn't say what kind of work you rifle will do. But if you are going to be using it mainly for target shooting, IMO, a EZ Pull Trigger Assist is worth the $40. Cuts trigger weight in 1/2 on my Savage. Mine is just over 2lbs. The good thing is, you can remove it by loosening 2 allen screws to get back to a normal trigger. It attaches to the trigger guard. 94633