45 auto and cast boolits Questions

[Lights]

Hello guy's this is my first post here. [smilie=s:

I have been reloading for about 15 years now for my rifles. But just started reloading for my 45 auto pistol. I seem to be having some leading issues and maybe someone here could help me out. I have some 200gr RNFP boolits that mic .452-.4525 from Missouri Bullet co. They claim that they have a hardness of 18Bhn. I was charging them with 5.0gr of Bullseye. When cleaning I found the barrel was leaded. So I cleaned the lean out and slugged the barrel and it is .453:mad:. Is my only choice to get rid of the leading issues to order some boolits in .454 dia if I want to shoot cast boolits? Or should I try and bump up my powder charge to widen the back end of the boolit out?

Thank you,
Mark

[felix]

Do NOT shoot the ACP pistol any harder than you are now unless the gun is intended to be a war gun. ... felix

[littlejack]

Lights:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.
How about a new barrell.
If you load bigger boolits, they may not chamber. I do not believe that bumping the powder
charge will remidy your leading.
Maybe softer boolits? With that powder charge, they may bump up some. Not for certain though.
Jack

[Bushrat]

You may also try a lighter charge of Bullseye, my 45 had a leading problem with clays until I dropped to 4 grains. Check your bookl and start with a light to mid range load of bullseye and see if it solves your problem.

[Lights]

The pistol is a Taurus 24/7 OSS Tactical. Which was designed for the military.

[geargnasher]

If you have leading, you have gas leaks, sharp edges perpendicular to the bore (like a sharp step from throat to rifling shaving lead), or rough spots from machine marks or copper fouling. Work back from there to diagnose the issue.

Most commerciall boolits are too small, too hard, and have lousy lube. All three of these factors can cause poor or loss of obturation (sealing of the bore) and the resulting gas leaks will erode the boolit, lay the lead dust down in the barrel, and iron it on when the boolit passes over it.

Gear

[jmsj]

Lights,
Welcome to Castboolits !!
Those are some really hard and undersized bullets for your barrel. gearnasher nailed it on the head regarding factory cast bullets.
littlejack's comments that .454 bullets may not chamber, try posting in the bullet exchange section of swappin and sellin and see if someone can send you some .454's to try. I will check but I don't think I have a 45 ACP mold that drops that big.
Good luck, jmsj

[camaro1st]

when i first started i used the Missouri Bullet co. the bullet was sized ok for my barrel but the lube was where my problem was. It was blue and almost as hard as the bullet. i changed the lube and no leading. it looks like you have a couple of issues. size is important.

[KYCaster]

.453 groove dia.??? :shock:

That's unusual. You may have a hard time making that work.

Jerry

[geargnasher]

Never seen a .45 ACP with a groove dimension that large. Possible, but not likely. Sounds like something other than pure lead was used to slug it.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Please reslug, it is highly unusual to find a groove diam that big in this caliber, but
it is a Taurus. Also I'd back off to 4.8 gr and use a H&G 68 (200 SWC) for that gun.

I have burned about 200-300K of those and leading is very minimal in number of
1911s. Of course, they have .451 groove diameters.

Bill

[Lights]

I slugged it with one of my .452 RNFP boolits. I am a toolmaler (moldmaker) and know how to maesure things. I used a mic not a varynear caliper. The bullets never touched the groove diameter. So I smashed a boolit a little in my mill vise until it gat to .455 and it slugged at .453 Maybe I need to see if I can send the gun back and get a barrel that has the right grove diameter.

[Blammer]

Lights, please don't take offense to those suggestions about slugging and measureing.

Most do not know how to measure or use a caliper, and by your posts ( I mean we look and see you only have 3 or so, so you are "new" here) we most likely assumed the same.

I shall presume you meant toolmaker, not toolmaler. :)

if your barrel is .453 I suspect that .454 dia will fit just fine in the chamber. I have a chamber in my 45acp that will accept .454 dia boolits but .452 dia ones shoot just fine in my 45acp.

the powder charge changes are a good start, or try a diff powder. Overall I suspect you'll need a diff size boolit.

[Lights]

Lights, please don't take offense to those suggestions about slugging and measureing.

Most do not know how to measure or use a caliper, and by your posts ( I mean we look and see you only have 3 or so, so you are "new" here) we most likely assumed the same.

I shall presume you meant toolmaker, not toolmaler. :)

if your barrel is .453 I suspect that .454 dia will fit just fine in the chamber. I have a chamber in my 45acp that will accept .454 dia boolits but .452 dia ones shoot just fine in my 45acp.

the powder charge changes are a good start, or try a diff powder. Overall I suspect you'll need a diff size boolit.

No offense, just wanted everyone to know where i am coming from.

Yes I meant Toolmaker.:D Been doing it for 23 years now.

Thanks for all of your help guy's

Mark

[bigboredad]

check out Ranchdog's site he has bullet molds for the taurus .45 that drop at .457 or maybe he was just talking about doing it. He has Taurus guns in the .45 acp and claims they use a .457 barrel

[Char-Gar]

If you have leading, you have gas leaks, sharp edges perpendicular to the bore (like a sharp step from throat to rifling shaving lead), or rough spots from machine marks or copper fouling. Work back from there to diagnose the issue.

Most commerciall boolits are too small, too hard, and have lousy lube. All three of these factors can cause poor or loss of obturation (sealing of the bore) and the resulting gas leaks will erode the boolit, lay the lead dust down in the barrel, and iron it on when the boolit passes over it.

Gear

Da gospel truth.

Slug it again. You would have to pound so hard on that hard cast bullet to get it down the barrel, that any measurment would be suspect. Use soft lead.

[quilbilly]

I agree with geargnasher and would add that a lot of commercial lead boolit makers use bevel base boolits which is a bad idea. I have a T/C Contender barrel in 45 acp and it leaded terribly with factory cast boolits but as soon as I got my 200 gr rnfp Lee mold casting, the leading stopped completely with my own boolits plus Alox.

[gwpercle]

Before you do anything , buy some boolits designed for 45 ACP in a softer alloy.
For as long as I can rember Lyman # 452460 , a 200 gr cast SWC , air cooled wheel weights , sized .452 , have worked in every 1911 type and two revolvers that I have loaded for. I think it's you bullet not gun.

[garym1a2]

My fav 1911 load is a 200 SWC with 4 gr of bullseye. Also use a good soft gooey lube works well for me.


You may also try a lighter charge of Bullseye, my 45 had a leading problem with clays until I dropped to 4 grains. Check your bookl and start with a light to mid range load of bullseye and see if it solves your problem.

[MtGun44]

4.7 to 4.8 of BE or TG, and try to get some H&G 68 clones - even the too hard ones,
and if the diam is right these will guaranteed work. Not certain about that design, and
the crayola lube is no great shakes, pretty marginal.

Since you are qualified to measure and are using the right tools (LOVED the 'verynear' caliper,
this is something that I harp on a lot - use a mic) then a re-do with a soft slug is the
only possible reprive. It is probably .453. Not a good thing and pretty unusual, really.

Otherwise - it is a Taurus and I'd tell them what the issue is and see if you can get an
on-spec bbl replacement.

Bill

[Moonie]

check out Ranchdog's site he has bullet molds for the taurus .45 that drop at .457 or maybe he was just talking about doing it. He has Taurus guns in the .45 acp and claims they use a .457 barrel

My PT1911 slugs .451 on the nose.

[Lizard333]

I don't know why people give a bunch of **** about Taurus. Several of my firearms are made by them them and I have never had any problems. The lifetime warranty is something else not many manufactures stand by. Typically people that don't own them are the ones that are bagging on them.

That said, call up Taurus and tell them what you have. They will make it right. Your barrel is to large. The other option is to beagle a mold and see if that works.

BTW, my PT slugs at 451. 452's are a perfect fit. Never had an issue.

[C.F.Plinker]

I've got a Saeco mold that casts beautiful 185 grain boolits - the only problem is that they are undersized. Like a .452 sizer doesnt't even touch them and the mic says .450-.451. When I lube them up and drive one through the barrel the grooves don't touch it either. I cast these out of range scrap at BHN of 8 or so which hardens up to BHN 11 when I water drop them. I have used Javelina, Felix, and lithi-bee as lubes andnever seen any leading. It might be worth your time to get some boolits cast of a softer alloy and lubed with a soft lube to see if that solves your leading problem. Heck, if you have the lube, I would try heating a few of them to 425* or so and letting them cool in the oven in order to remove the lube and anneal them. Then relube with a soft lube and try them again.

[cf_coder]

Ditto here on my Taurus PT1911. .451 all the way down the bore. .452 cast boolits of just about any variety with some 45/45/10 Recluse lube work like a charm.

Make sure your boolits are coming out of the cartridge at the right diameter as well. Load up a couple of dummy rounds (take them through the entire process sans powder) and pop 'em out using a kinetic bullet puller. Measure.

[Ultravox]

I have run about 1000 of the Missouri Bullet Bullseye #1 12bhn bullets through my 1911 with no issues. The 18bhn might be a little too hard.

I have since started casting my own and they run pretty well too. I see you are in MN, I have a handful of the softer MBC bullets if you would like to try some. Shoot me a PM if you like.

[Cherokee]

My Taurus 24/7 OSS 45 ACP shoots .452 sized bullet just fine. I get a little trace leading but it doesn't hurt anything nor does it build up. Cleans up easily when I do clean it. I use 231 for my TC bullets and WST for my SWC bullets. All are my cast of 13-15 bhn alloy.

[bigboredad]

My PT1911 slugs .451 on the nose.

that is good news. That sounded weird when I read that and to be honest I cannot remember where the hell i read that I have been looking for that post for a long time. Hell who knows maybe i made it up a thought it sounded good. But thanks for that measurement as I have thought about taurus lately but don't know why as I'm very happy with what I have

[geargnasher]

I slugged it with one of my .452 RNFP boolits. I am a toolmaler (moldmaker) and know how to maesure things. I used a mic not a varynear caliper. The bullets never touched the groove diameter. So I smashed a boolit a little in my mill vise until it gat to .455 and it slugged at .453 Maybe I need to see if I can send the gun back and get a barrel that has the right grove diameter.

Your measurements might be accurate, but what you're measuring likely is NOT.

I figured you used a boolit to do the slugging, and that's probably why your dimension is so far off from what we expect. Your measured groove size is possible, but not probable. You MUST use dead-soft lead for that because antimonial lead is springy, and so is the barrel. The boolit squeezes down like a nerf ball and then puffs up again by at least a thousandth after passing the bore, and the barrel will expand as the boolit goes through it like a snake swallowing an egg. Both of these flex factors compound to give you larger-than-true groove measurements on your slug. If you don't believe that, pound a boolit into the barrel an inch and take before/after measurements of the outside at that point, you'll see what I mean.

I still think you have a sharp or nonexistent throat that's shaving lead, though. Peek in the chamber end of the barrel with a light at the muzzle and see if you can detect a second step between the end of the chamber and the rifling origin. You want to see a smooth taper from the end of the chamber to the lands, but often there will be a sharp step where the chamber reamer stopped.

Gear

[Moonie]

that is good news. That sounded weird when I read that and to be honest I cannot remember where the hell i read that I have been looking for that post for a long time. Hell who knows maybe i made it up a thought it sounded good. But thanks for that measurement as I have thought about taurus lately but don't know why as I'm very happy with what I have

I had always recommended Taurus to people that didn't have much to spend and didn't know much about firearms due to their warranty but I had never owned one.

A friend of mine had one and it was stolen from him, it was recovered and stayed in evidence for over a year while the culprit was tried. When he finally got the pistol back it was in very bad shape, couldn't even pull back the slide. I told him he should send it to Taurus and he informed me he was not the original owner. I told him from what I understood it didn't matter. He sent the pistol back, 2 months later he got it back and Taurus had replaced everything except the frame, free of charge. My next pistol purchase was my PT1911, it compares very well to my previous 1911's, a SA and a Kimber.

[MtGun44]

Lizard333 - because our experience has not been as good as yours. I have completely
rebuilt a PT1911 for a friend and have reported on it a few times here. It was not a ***,
and the slide, frame and bbl seemed to meet specs. BUT essentially all the rest of the parts were
'problematic' - many off spec and/or redesigned to work with no fitting with wide tolerances.
Good engineering to cut labor content to hold the price down, but not reliable after a few
thousand rounds.

Once I replaced everything except, frame, slide, barrel, grip safety and mainspring housing,
the gun has been a really good one.

I have worse stories and Taurus has a history of high rate of DOA or immediate failure when
nearly new. Glad you have had good results, not everyone else has had the same. The
owner does not reload and shoots factory ball only, so I have no idea what the groove diam
is like.

Bill

[XWrench3]

I have a Taurus 24/7 PRO madel in 45acp also. not quite the same gun, but i doubt the barrel is any different between the 2 of them. mine also slugs large. not quite THAT large, but i think that is probably normal for Taurus. i ended up lapping my Lee 230g rn mold so it would drop larger boolits. i tried beagling first, but to get them large enough, they were way out of round. it took forever and a day to get all 6 cavities opened up. it is very obvious that Taurus could care less about any of us who shoot cast boolits. their position is shoot jacketed bullets, and not worry about it. if bullets were cheap, that might be ok, but they are not. so your choice is either cut way back on our shooting, or adapt as necessary. i really do not want to cut back on my shooting, so...... of course, the other option is to trade in, or sell the Taurus, and buy a real 1911, NOT made in Brazil. but that can be costly. plus of course, if this is a carry gun, you have a lot of additional weight as well.

[MT Gianni]

Get a South Bend brand egg sinker that you can slug the bbl with. They were made dead soft [at least 10 years ago] and would not spring back. You can take a mike to the sporting goods store to get the right size.

[MikeS]

I don't know why people seem to hate Taurus guns. I have a PT1911 and haven't had a moments trouble with it. I also had a Taurus Millennium Pro 745 that never gave me any problems. 1911s are made in many places, and I bet the ones made in Brazil (Taurus) are far from the worst 1911s out there. There isn't a gun maker out there that hasn't made a bad gun or two, and judging a company by looking at one gun just isn't fair. Now if somebody says that they've worked on a dozen PT1911s and they've all been junk, then MAYBE they're right. Before I got my PT1911 I had a Colt Commander, and that gun gave me way more trouble than the Taurus has. So by that experience should I say that Colt guns are junk, and Taurus guns are the best ever? I don't think so. So by the same token, somebody that's had trouble with a single Taurus gun doesn't have a right to proclaim all Taurus guns junk.

When my Commander was stolen, and I was looking for a replacement I looked at several different makers guns, and prices, and for me the Taurus offered the best gun for the money, I really don't see what the higher priced 1911s like the Kimber would offer me that the Taurus doesn't. The only 1911 I really want to get now is the new Ruger SR1911, and that's only because I really like Ruger guns, and I really like the 1911 design, and having both in one gun is something I've wanted for a long time! If it was available when I bought the Taurus, I would have bought it, rather than the Taurus. I'm still happy with my purchase, and if I get a Ruger, it will be added to my stable of guns, rather than replacing one.