44 mag - Need help understanding powder performance

[Revolver]

I decided to try to work up a load for my 44 magnum with 310 grain Lee boolit.

I loaded up 10 grains of Blue dot and the shots were all over the place. They all hit the paper (8.5"x11" target) but they were scattered in every direction, none hit right on the bullseye. (11 shots total)

I didn't have much blue dot so I decided to scrap that and try 5.5 grains of Red Dot. Boy howdy! 7 shots made a ragged hole on the bullseye, the rest were "within acceptable parameters" except for one wild shot. (12 shots total)

So, I know that Red Dot burns a lot faster than Blue Dot. I need help understanding how the burn rate affects ballsitics. It must also be dependent on the weight of the projectile? Perhaps because this is a heavy 310 grain boolit it needs a fast burning powder. Blue dot has worked ok in 357 magnum for me, with a 158 grain boolit.

[runfiverun]

faster burning means just that.
think about burning 5 grs of powder.
the slow powder burns that 5 grs in a longer time period and all the other powder too.
the reason that they stop there is because of peak pressure.
the slow powder takes longer to get to that pressure stays there longer then drops off.
the fast powder goes right to it hangs for a mili-second then drops off.
your 10 grs of blue dot might not have produced enough velocity to stabilize the boolit.
it didn't have enough powder to produce enough pressure to attain velocity.
where the red dot got up to pressure and shoved the boolit out all at once.

you get the b/d up into the 12-13 gr range and you'll see an improvement.
the slower the powder the more of it you need to achieve peak pressure, all you are doing is making more gas volumn over time.
it's like getting 3 300 lb guy's to move a truck 50 yds they'll start out quick then lose thier breath
versus 6 150 lb dudes.

[Revolver]

I understand what you are saying but according the the data below it seems the Blue Dot should have generated greater velocity than the Red Dot, while having the same PSI, so I don't think it's the lack of velocity.

This is in a Ruger Redhawk with a 7.5" barrel.

10.7 gr Blue Dot (I went with 10.0)
1,110 fps
34,900 PSI
Suggested starting load: 9.6 gr

5.8 gr Red Dot (I went with 5.5)
885 fps
34,900 PSI
Suggested starting load: 5.2 gr

[trapper9260]

Have you use blue dot with that bullet before . Some bullets will shoot different with the same powders. What I do is for testing some bullets at first I use 2 different powders i want to try and and make the primers with a marker 2 different colors and then i load what I want then I test them . What one shoot the best I go with that one. If I need to adjust the load i do that after with that one powder I see works the best for that bullet.I have the same gun as you but i have not got any 310grs bullet . But this what I do for new loads or go to a different powders. You can also do what was said before to increase the load with in the data .I stay away from the max load.

[Blammer]

revolver, you are making the mistake of assuming that the "reloading data'' out of the book will preciesly match your firearm and reloading supplies you used.

you want more monkey on the wrench, look at what the test barrel was they used for their reloading data.

runfiverun is spot on.

[Reload3006]

Revolvers especially will inherently do better with faster powders. Not exclusively though. Slower powders use barrel length to realize their true potential. Where as fast powders use the chamber to do the same job. Pluses and minuses to both. In a revolver you basically have the cartridge to develop the needed pressures to send your bullet in flight. in a rifle or auto you have a portion of the barrel to continue to push and increase velocity. I have found for straight up performance fast powders work better in revolvers. I however like a lot of medium burning powders and slower powders because of perceived recoil.

[44man]

Too much happens we can't answer. Personally I have never gotten a heavy boolit to shoot too slow or with fast powders.
Much depends on your alloy too in relation to a fast thump while the boolit is still in the cylinder. Even starting it out too fast can make it skid the rifling. Heavy boolits have a lot of inertia and do not want to be slammed into a turn.
Distance will show you better what you are getting. My shooting just starts at 50 yards.
My load with the Lee 310 is 21.5 gr of 296 using a Fed 150 primer. That will be north of 1320 fps out of my 10" barrel and just a shade different in 7-1/2". That is a fine barrel length for the .44.
I use water dropped WW metal so the boolit grips the rifling.
I do not shoot many slow loads but when I go to a fast powder I go down in boolit weight and make them much, much harder then anyone else. I will go to 28 or 30 BHN. ( I am old and weird, after all!)
All I see is your Blue Dot load tried to make the boolit enter the rifling too fast, judged by the velocity. It is wrong to use a fast powder to match the velocity of a slow powder. I am sure if you tried to make Red Dot reach the Blue Dot velocity, you would again scatter shots.
If you want 1100 to 1200 fps, go to 2400, a wonderful powder in the .44. For full stability of the 310 gr, go to 296. Ease it into the barrel with a powder acting like a buffer behind the boolit and to burn in the bore instead of the case.
Revolvers do not really like fast powders and those with very short barrels or tiny cartridges are trapped in the fast powder area.

[paul h]

For a load to be accurate, the powder has to burn consistantly. It just may happen that the blue dot load is not burning consistantly.

I've tested quite a few cast bullet designs with various powders in my 480 and have come to the conclusion that there are no hard and fast rules with hancgun accuracy with cast bullets. I've had unique give me steller accuracy with one bullet design, then went to another bullet design and couldn't get it to group with unique. I ended up trying blue dot with that other design and again had steller accuracy.

From my 44 mag lee 310 experience I'd suggest trying 21-22.5 gr of H-110 lit off with a cci 350.

[runfiverun]

I understand what you are saying but according the the data below it seems the Blue Dot should have generated greater velocity than the Red Dot, while having the same PSI, so I don't think it's the lack of velocity.

This is in a Ruger Redhawk with a 7.5" barrel.

10.7 gr Blue Dot (I went with 10.0)
1,110 fps
34,900 PSI
Suggested starting load: 9.6 gr

5.8 gr Red Dot (I went with 5.5)
885 fps
34,900 PSI
Suggested starting load: 5.2 gr

you'd think that.
unless you could see a pressure graph,if the b/d is still pushing at the end of the bbl it has nothing there to push against.
so the full potential is never realized.
it could be giving the same or less velocity.
same anaology.
just change the distance to 20 yds, and remember you are adding the 150 lb guy's along the trip not all at the start.
by the time the 4th dude get's in on the race, it's over.

[lead chucker]

+ 1 for the 2400 I love that powder. It worked for Elmer kieth and it works for me. I like 14.5 gr 2400 with the the 310 gr at close to 1300 fps in my ruger 77/44, shot a few deer with it.

[Revolver]

Ok I think I am grasping this. One more question... if the powder isn't done burning when the boolit leaves the barrel then will that destabilize it?

[44man]

Ok I think I am grasping this. One more question... if the powder isn't done burning when the boolit leaves the barrel then will that destabilize it?
No, but short barrels make nice fireballs.
7-1/2" will totally burn all the good powders. Even a little shorter will.
But some guys want a .500 S&W with a 2" barrel! :veryconfu
The .44 and .45 Colt can use some pretty short barrels with the slowest powder like 296 and H110. But you start to lose big time as you increase case capacity compared to barrel length.
Blue dot is a slower powder but it will be all gone before the end of your barrel. Yet it still considered a fast powder in the .44. What does it do at ignition? Where is the pressure rise the highest? Will barrel heat change burn rate? 4227 does that in the .44.
Just a change close to Blue Dot can smooth out the pressure curve.
Calibers have preferences for the powder, some work fine but another hates the choice. Gun heat in one caliber can ruin your shooting but the same powder in another caliber can run all day.
2400 is just a little slower then Blue Dot but it's action in the .44 is different.
It is why we work loads and test. If a powder never comes in, reject it for that caliber.

[Revolver]

Ok, I get it, thanks.

So, I found that 10 grains of Blue Dot sucks. What procedure might one use to troubleshoot? Perhaps load up 6 round (my cylinder holds 6 rounds) batches at 0.1 increments from 9.5 through 9.9 grains and test fire them to see if there is a sweet spot?

[1bluehorse]

You could do that...or buy a pound of 2400 and make it easier on yourself...[smilie=l:

[Revolver]

I just did a powder valley order a few months ago, prices around here are about double and I won't pay it.

I have plenty of Unique and Red Dot on hand so I guess I will develop the red dot load and use up the rest of the Blue Dot in my 357 loads.

I also picked up a pound of Bullseye and 1680 for experimenting. Was going to use the 1680 for 7.62x39.

[44man]

Many powders are the exact same components. It is the shape and coatings that change burn rates. Ball powders can be round or flat, stick powders are different diameters and some have different size holes through them. Some are just flat flakes with different coatings. But so many are the exact same powders at the start. Some are single base and others double base but each can have a burn rate change by shape and coating.
It is so complex that a change in nitro or such can change the powder but it is beyond us. So many little changes of components also enter.
Thank the powder makers for making canister powders so close for us.
It is still up to you to find what works without sticking to one powder unless it does what you need.

[runfiverun]

don't be scared to use the unique either.
powder have a pressure "zone" they burn thier cleanest and most efficient in.
finding that peak zone coupled with your alloy and the velocity you want is a balanced load.
you aren't stressing anything but you are pushing hard enough.

[fredj338]

So, I know that Red Dot burns a lot faster than Blue Dot. I need help understanding how the burn rate affects ballsitics. It must also be dependent on the weight of the projectile? Perhaps because this is a heavy 310 grain boolit it needs a fast burning powder. Blue dot has worked ok in 357 magnum for me, with a 158 grain boolit.


Actually, it's the opp. Generally, heavier bullets work best w/ slower pwoders. The issue w/ BD or other slower powders is you have to get the denisty up so they burn more completely. Faster powders & heavy bullets are a KB waiting to happen IMO. The pressures build steeply & quickly & all that trying to push a heavy for caliber bullet is not a good thing. Can yo uget good low end results, sure, but then why shoot 310gr 44mags for low end plinkers? A 240-250gr LSWC is a better tool in that application. BD will work, yo ujust have to get the charge wt up.

[Swampman]

I shoot the 310 over 10 grains of Unique. It does fine.

[MtGun44]

Unique is a good one up to the 1000 to 1100 fps range with 250 gr cast, probably
want a bit less with a 310.

Bill

[Any Cal.]

300+ grain bullets go with 296/H110 like milk and cookies. Save the fast powders for light bullet target loads or auto pistol plinking loads.

The pressure peak with handgun powders comes in the first 1-2" of bullet travel. Then the barrel uses all the gasses produced to push the bullet. You may still have unburned powder out the end of the barrel, but you reached the pressure peak by the time the bullet got past the forcing cone.

[Lloyd Smale]

redot is to fast to get good performance out of heavy bulelts and ive never been a fan of bluedot either. When pushing it to higher levels of performance especially with heavy bullets it isnt pressure stable. It goes from mild to wild with just a small increase in charge weight. For what your doing theres better powders. two come to mind. 2400 and aa9. Both work real well in the 1100 fps range and a bit more. If max velocity is your goal 110/296 is THE POWDER. Unique is good to about 900 fps with a heavy in the 44 mag. I wouldnt push it much more then that and would even go that high in a smith and wesson. Like 44 man said heavy bullets work better with slower powders just like they do in rifles. I never was one who believed in buying a couple powders and trying to make them work for everything. Keep your unique for 250 grain loads and your redot for plinking loads and buy the proper powder to make your gun into a true magnum.