Witch hunt is over with the Bisley

[subsonic]

It was me. Dang it. I was holding it too tight!!!:groner:

My hand got tired, I relaxed my grip a little, and groups tightened up!
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/bisley300gr.jpg

Compared Federal Auto Match to Wal-Mart bulk "555" Winchester 36gr HP .22s in the MKII @ 50yds.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/bisleyandwwfedmk2.jpg

The federals were more "brisk" and worked the action harder, but the winchesters are a lot cheaper. All of them went off and only one jam.

I was having a tough time getting comfortable on the .22 test. The bench was too high and I had to double stack chairs for the .45 Bisley shooting.

More later.

[Matthew 25]

Hard to argue with that, looks awesome.

[bigboredad]

very interesting groups with the bisley. I wonder if that is whats been why one day i shoot so good and others so bad and it's the days that I feel the best that I shoot the worst. I will be paying more attention to my grip for sure

[subsonic]

Now, I'm not holding it "loose", I'm just not squeezing it to death. I have a very strong grip when I shoot and I would bet that my "relaxed grip" is tighter than a lot of people's normal shooting grip....

After the group marked "1" I moved the Bowen target rear sight up 5 clicks.

All the targets except theplate were at 50yds from the bench.

The paper plate was offhand at 25yds, 11 rds. I was shooting odd numbers in the cylinder to try to catch any flinch. The ones that are high and all over the plate are the tight grip shots. The ones on/near the shoot-n-see are the looser grip shots. Something is going on with the left/right dispersion with a tight grip. Maybe my trigger squeeze is moving the gun?

[bigboredad]

the left right thing is what is driving me nuts especially with the 5.5 in bis and now I wonder if if could be my grip and or I'm trying to hard and just need to relax all over and just shoot instead of trying to think and shoot. Have you had a chance to cast your new 340gr? I really like the way it looks and I have some high hopes for that bullet.

I was able to get very satisfying groups a couple weeks ago with the 340f and I think the reason was I was very relaxed that day. It was a few days after anew treatment and I was just relieved to have lived through it so i was more relaxed than usual and my groups showed it

[2 dogs]

Dennis, I guess there is such a thing a TOO hard of a hold. 5 clicks is a pretty good sight adjustment. I hold them pretty stiff and get good results. But Im not squeezing them to death....

Too bad we cant shoot together and see....

[44man]

Looks good! I use a very "firm" grip so the grip does not slide in my hand. (A little harder on the .500 though :bigsmyl2:) Never get to a shake point from strain.
I never grouped as good with a Bisley more then a few times. It seems to get sensitive to hold fast and a very slight pressure or position change affects me. Not like a S&W though where just putting the gun down, picking it up again can move my group 10" but I do see it.
Grip sensitivity with the S&W is why they never entered the winners circle in IHMSA. All of mine would do 1/2" at 50 meters but there was no way to win at silhouette.
I had a Bisley hunter for two weeks before I sold it. It beat my knuckle so a slight shift would throw shots.
I have the same problem with a RH but not the SRH.
I think of it like shooting a bow where the hand has to be in exactly the same position for every shot. I shot tournaments with one bow where I rubbed cocoa butter on my hand so it slid into the same position. Just try THAT with a revolver! :veryconfu (Great for "roll" guys but wear a hard hat.)
Too many shooters do not understand grips and how fast they can ruin your shooting. That is why I never recommend anything until you shoot them yourself. Truth be told I never ever recommended a grip, I just told what does not work for me. You are the final judge.
My posts have been beat to death over the Bisley but those that do beat will never understand it is me and my hands.
Some say they reduce felt recoil but do they change the ft pounds---NO. All they change is the angle of the dangle. [smilie=s:
Maybe the worst grips are the super pretty, high polished ones where you dare not shoot without a glove. You can see it when a shooter gets cut by the trigger. How can a trigger cut you? Is it the front of the trigger guard or the trigger itself? I have seen it here but I shoot their gun without a glove. One brings a box of band aids to tape up first before putting on a thick glove. Wrong grip for them but it sure is pretty! [smilie=w:

[subsonic]

I have not had a chance to do anything besides take pics of that 340gr mold.

My current plan is to make a bunch more of this load and boolit (since I have a bunch cast up) and shoot them with varrying grip to see WTH is going on.

I can definitely tell you that the way you set up on the bench can change what happens on the target. The way the gun sits on the rear bag will definitely cause vertical stringing. The more solid the rear bag, the less that happens - but I don't think I'll shoot with the gun on anything "hard", just firm like a sandbag well packed and compressed. A few karate chops works to get it packed.

[subsonic]

Here are the specs on everything:

Accu-Sport 5.5" Stainless Ruger Bisley .45LC w/Bowen rear, taller Ruger front blade, Belt Mountain pin, throats opened to .453" with emery and a split steel rod in a drill, Power Custom free spin pawl, hammer, trigger, and trigger spring, 25lb Wolff main spring. Also firelapped the :takinWiz: out of it and it still has a noticeable thread choke when pushing a slug down the bore.

Load:

3 or 4x fired Starline brass trimmed enough that they are all the same length, LBT 300gr WFNGC cast of WDWW, Lubed with LBT Blue Soft and sized .4525", 23gr H110, Fed 150 primer. Loaded with RCBS dies with the expander turned down to .449" using a STEEL sizer die that doesn't make the case bodies way undesize.

[subsonic]

Here's a pic of the gun, next to my BFR in .500JRH. The Bisley needs a bath.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/jrh55.jpg

[subsonic]

And, regarding the .22 ammo, this is how the Remington Golden bluk 550 ammo from Wal-Mart shoots @50yds in my MKII, but it has lots of duds and some jams.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/90423479.jpg

[44man]

All looks good but maybe too much powder!
Try reducing 1/2 gr at a time to see if groups tighten. 22 to 22.5 might work better.
I do not have a 300 gr but the 335 gr LBT or the 325 gr Lyman works best with 21.5 gr in the .45.
Knowing you, you have already worked up and your load might be best so it is just a thought.
My .44 with a 320 gr is also best with 21.5 gr. I need to drop to 21 gr for my 330 gr.
The rear bag does cause vertical stringing but if it is in a straight line, I ignore. The whole thing is that you know what causes a shot, then ignore it. When you DON'T know is where trouble starts.
But look close at your hold on the Bisley, experiment by changing a little and see what happens, I am interested in your findings. You shoot good enough to detect any change.
One way to tell is to put the gun on the bench between shots and see if groups get worse.
When I was shooting the S&W's, I thought about super gluing the gun to my hand! :drinks:
You see, roll with a grip will change every hold from shot to shot and is why I hate those comments about letting a gun roll. Other grips can change with just finger pressure. Your pinky might be change the POI.
It is like a shotgun. I can't hit for beans with an 870 but nothing ever got away with the Ithaca 37. I would triple on a covey of quail, doubled on grouse and a pheasant never got away. It is FIT.
I bought a single shot .410 from a guy in town and could not hit a thing so I took a rasp to the stock, must have removed a few pounds of wood, refinished it and now it is a joy to shoot.
I will never side with those that say a Bisley is best, they can't shoot good enough to tell those subtle differences. The truth is the Bisley was made for low recoil, one hand shooting just to get the hand and eye in a better alignment. Recoil was never a factor.
How strange that the 1911 grip angle was and is still the best ever made. Browning was a genius. The Luger was genius and so was the Ruger Mark I, II and III.
Hey Dennis, flack is coming my way again! [smilie=1:

[subsonic]

I have not tried lower powder charges, as that was one variable I wanted to keep the same whlie I dialed in other things.

It is "on the list".

[tek4260]

3 or 4x fired Starline brass trimmed enough that they are all the same length, LBT 300gr WFNGC cast of WDWW, Lubed with LBT Blue Soft and sized .4525", 23gr H110, Fed 150 primer. Loaded with RCBS dies with the expander turned down to .449" using a STEEL sizer die that doesn't make the case bodies way undesize.


Sounds like the typical answer given when someone is looking for a load for a 45. Heavy boolit, soft lube, full case of H110, and neck tension. :)

I feel like I need to back off on my grip a bit too. I used to shoot and it felt natural and I got good groups consistently. Now that I white knuckle it, I have to really concentrate on my grip or I get bad fliers. With a looser grip, a flyer is maybe 1" out of the group, tighter grip and they can be 2 or 3"

[subsonic]

Just to clarify, you want to hold the thing enough that it doesn't squirm in your hand or bite you from moving.

Since there is no (easy, cheap) way to measure how tight a person is gripping a revolver, the best advice I can give is to experiment and pay attention to what you're doing.

Note that the BFR with a SBH type grip was not as sensative to this.

[44man]

Just to clarify, you want to hold the thing enough that it doesn't squirm in your hand or bite you from moving.

Since there is no (easy, cheap) way to measure how tight a person is gripping a revolver, the best advice I can give is to experiment and pay attention to what you're doing.

Note that the BFR with a SBH type grip was not as sensative to this.
Yes, Yes, Yes,
Some have a wrist like a tree limb and others have a twig. Little pinky girly hands or hands that twisted off large bolts with a little wrench. I am the latter, started as a mechanic and NEEDED a torque wrench or I would ruin stuff. At one time I would twist off a 1/2" bolt with a wrench. Don't ask about larger tools!
Lay on the floor with a 1" impact wrench pounding off spring bolts from a tractor trailer and tell me your .44 is too much for your pinky fingers and I will tell you to get a real job.
I spent 42 years loading a billion tons of cargo into airplane pits, freight, mail and bags. I can not relate to a desk jockey that can't squeeze a lemon. At one time I would crush your hand.
I had to cut cords of firewood, split by hand and stack it for the winter.
Yet I understand the differences between all of us. Some hold their pinky up when drinking a little wine while I drink 100 proof.
I do not expect the milk toast to shoot the same. Some with too macho a ruse can not shoot either.
You can be tough or weak, but your mind controls how you shoot.

[MaxEnergy]

Yes, Yes, Yes,
Some have a wrist like a tree limb and others have a twig. Little pinky girly hands or hands that twisted off large bolts with a little wrench. I am the latter, started as a mechanic and NEEDED a torque wrench or I would ruin stuff. At one time I would twist off a 1/2" bolt with a wrench. Don't ask about larger tools!
Lay on the floor with a 1" impact wrench pounding off spring bolts from a tractor trailer and tell me your .44 is too much for your pinky fingers and I will tell you to get a real job.
I spent 42 years loading a billion tons of cargo into airplane pits, freight, mail and bags. I can not relate to a desk jockey that can't squeeze a lemon. At one time I would crush your hand.
I had to cut cords of firewood, split by hand and stack it for the winter.
Yet I understand the differences between all of us. Some hold their pinky up when drinking a little wine while I drink 100 proof.
I do not expect the milk toast to shoot the same. Some with too macho a ruse can not shoot either.
You can be tough or weak, but your mind controls how you shoot.

so let me get this straight, if you have pursued more intellectual avenues in your life, you cannot shoot a big caliber revolver well? is baggage handling the key to success? me thinks you are generalizing. one of the toughest sobs i know is an accountant! :bigsmyl2:

ive done my share of wrenching and if you break bolts that means youre ham fisted. you need to use a bit more finesse.

[subsonic]

Generalizing allows you to quickly assess a situation without completely analyzing it every time. You might generalize that roast turkey is dry, but it is not always dry.

You also might generalize that someone that only posts in opposition to another user, and for no other reason, would be a troll.

[MaxEnergy]

Generalizing allows you to quickly assess a situation without completely analyzing it every time. You might generalize that roast turkey is dry, but it is not always dry.

You also might generalize that someone that only posts in opposition to another user, and for no other reason, would be a troll.


and your generalization would be incorrect, sir. i have only countered the above mentioned poster on a couple of occasions, therefore i deny the suggestion that i am trolling

sometimes i read this stuff and i cannot control the impulse to counter. perhaps the high road is to ignore.

my apolgies if i offended. excuse me while i break some bolts with my teeth

[subsonic]

It seems like it would be more constructive to make your own posts, showing testing to prove or disprove a theory, or otherwise enlighten us with your knowledge and skills.

Be positive, not negative.

[44man]

so let me get this straight, if you have pursued more intellectual avenues in your life, you cannot shoot a big caliber revolver well? is baggage handling the key to success? me thinks you are generalizing. one of the toughest sobs i know is an accountant! :bigsmyl2:

ive done my share of wrenching and if you break bolts that means youre ham fisted. you need to use a bit more finesse.
Not at all. it is entirely you and no one else. You can be weak or strong but you need to find the fit for your gun. You might have too large a caliber then you can handle but if you do not give up and find what you need to do, you will be OK.
You need to control your gun, not the other way around.
I have said many times, bull strong guys would fail but a little girl can do it. It is a mental problem and fear.
Yet the .44 can be too much for some because they have very weak hands. Nothing against them but to go larger before mastering the .44 would not be what I suggest. Many will never shoot the .475 or .500's.
You see it all the time. A guy buys a .500 or a .480 and the first thing he looks for are Unique loads. Did he bite off too much?
You need some strength to shoot the large guns along with the mental attitude. Both go together. But there is a limit for each person. My daughter is an expert shot and can take out a can at 75 yards with a flintlock off hand. She shot the highest score for a woman in the marines. She beat all the men. She will bust clays all day with a 12 ga. I would never hand her my big bore revolvers unless she was ready herself. She is skinny but strong and knows her limits.
So Max, I have to ask, are you proficient with the .44? Have you ever spent a day shooting a .500?
Finesse is a myth. That is why every bolt and nut has specs for torque and why a torque wrench was even made. Some people are too weak to tighten and some too strong. Do not ever tell me you never torqued a nut and thought it should have more applied. Never tell me you can judge 40 pounds inch and 80 pounds inch or foot pounds by finesse. Have you ever worked on anything that needed a 5' torque wrench?
My dad had a pit in his garage. I picked up an automatic transmission from the pit bottom and stuck it in the car by hand when I was young. What the heck was a transmission jack?
I watched my dad lever an 8 cylinder inline out of a car with a board. Don't ask how he put it back in. It was done on the street, no winch. You have no idea. Do you think a .475 makes me blink?

[bigboredad]

and none of this helps me out at all but apparently ineed to go back and shoot a .22 cause i still enjoy my .45 colt with unique loads so I guess there will be 4 Ruger.45 colts for sell soon

[cottonstalk]

bigboredad I must be a whimp by some standards but I'll be interested in those colts

[MaxEnergy]

Not at all. it is entirely you and no one else. You can be weak or strong but you need to find the fit for your gun. You might have too large a caliber then you can handle but if you do not give up and find what you need to do, you will be OK.
You need to control your gun, not the other way around.
I have said many times, bull strong guys would fail but a little girl can do it. It is a mental problem and fear.
Yet the .44 can be too much for some because they have very weak hands. Nothing against them but to go larger before mastering the .44 would not be what I suggest. Many will never shoot the .475 or .500's.
You see it all the time. A guy buys a .500 or a .480 and the first thing he looks for are Unique loads. Did he bite off too much?
You need some strength to shoot the large guns along with the mental attitude. Both go together. But there is a limit for each person. My daughter is an expert shot and can take out a can at 75 yards with a flintlock off hand. She shot the highest score for a woman in the marines. She beat all the men. She will bust clays all day with a 12 ga. I would never hand her my big bore revolvers unless she was ready herself. She is skinny but strong and knows her limits.
So Max, I have to ask, are you proficient with the .44? Have you ever spent a day shooting a .500?
Finesse is a myth. That is why every bolt and nut has specs for torque and why a torque wrench was even made. Some people are too weak to tighten and some too strong. Do not ever tell me you never torqued a nut and thought it should have more applied. Never tell me you can judge 40 pounds inch and 80 pounds inch or foot pounds by finesse. Have you ever worked on anything that needed a 5' torque wrench?
My dad had a pit in his garage. I picked up an automatic transmission from the pit bottom and stuck it in the car by hand when I was young. What the heck was a transmission jack?
I watched my dad lever an 8 cylinder inline out of a car with a board. Don't ask how he put it back in. It was done on the street, no winch. You have no idea. Do you think a .475 makes me blink?


ah yes, glory days.....:bigsmyl2:

[1bluehorse]

Yeah I used to bend a #2 horseshoe in my hands then lift the anvil out of the back of the PU for the farrier so he could straighten them out. I still have no desire to shoot a 500 anything........and my shooting still sucks...