Unknown rifle ID help

[ilcop22]

Good afternoon,

A friend of mine brought over a pretty much 100% converted rifle based on what I believe is a Mauser action. My knowledge of Mausers is pretty much limited to what came out of Germany in WWII and the respective Yugo clones. A few things of note:

-The rifle belonged to my friend's girlfriend's father, who got it from his father. Neither the Grandfather or Father know anything about the rifle's make or caliber.
-The barrel has been completely polished and re-blued. I did not add any pictures of it because the front sight has been replaced with a ramp, and the rear sight and sleeve have been completely removed. The bore also has a liner in it (which complicates the second piece of the puzzle - What caliber is it?)
-The number 105 appears in three locations: Left side of the receiver, mag plate, and trigger.
-The stock looks to be a sporterized military stock, but again, not pictured because it has been reworked and refinished.

Several photos are included here:
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nosferatu1022/Unknown%20Mauser/

Any help is greatly appreciated, as always. Thanks.

Edit: If anyone knows what kind of Mauser this used to be, if you could provide any original caliber information, that would also be appreciated.

[bob208]

it is a sporterized jap. rifle.airasaka not sure of the spelling.

[Japlmg]

Japanese Nagoya Aresnal Type 99 Arisaka rifle, much sporterised.
Originally it was chambered for the 7.7x58 cartridge.
Gregg

[drhall762]

+1 on Arisaka. The 2 vent holes in the receiver are characteristic of the Type 38, 6.5 x 50mm Arisaka.

[Japlmg]

Sorry, error on my part; it is or was a Nagoya Type 38 rifle, the two gas vent holes on the receiver ID it as a T38.
The T38 was originally chambered for the 6.5x50sr cartridge (sr means semi-rimmed).
Gregg

[ilcop22]

Wow, I was way off. Thanks a bunch, guys! He'll be happy to know.

Is anyone familiar with a parent cartridge to the 7.7x58 or a common conversion caliber? Best as my eye can tell (without chamber casting), the chamber is in original condition, but there is a sleeve in the bore.

[5 RING]

Ilcop22
What you have is a Nagoya Arsenal Type 38. If you go to this site you can find more information about it.
http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html like the series and get close to the year it was made.

[bob208]

if it is a 7.7. it can be nade out of .30-06. if it a 6.5 better check the chamber a lot were rechambered to 6.5x 257 roberts.

[Gtek]

Early ones are better initial metal, fit, etc. No confirmed history, unkown, PLEASE- chamber cast / bore ID to be sure. Face being placed right behind big boom, things can go ugly fast. Gtek

[TNsailorman]

Why rechamber and pay extra for custom dies when 6.5x50mm brass is available from Graf's and other sources. Also loaded ammo is available if you don't load your own. The little 6.5 jap is a great shooting little number, I have owned 2 in the past and they were both fun to shoot and recoil wasn't at all bad. My experience anyway, James

[ilcop22]

Thanks for the added tips.

I slugged the bore, and it came out matching 6.5mm dimensions. Whether it gets shot or not is up to my buddy's girlfriend's father. Unless they ask me to cast the chamber and headspace it, I'll be giving my standard, "This gun is not safe to fire." before release. Personally, even if we did verify it, I would be hesitant to shoot such an old barrel with at least a 3 generation old insert in the bore.

[bob208]

frist are you sure it is an insert? most 6.5 jap barrels were chrome lined. that was their way of dealing with carosive primers. the jap actions were one of the strongest actions made.

the 6.5 x257 roberts was done back when jap brass was not around.

[3006guns]

To the best of my knowledge, none of the production type 38's (6.5 Jap) had chrome bores. That process was developed when the type 99 (7.7 Jap) began production in the late thirties.

I would be willing to bet you have a sporterized type 38 Jap done many years ago. Since 6.5 ammo wasn't readilly available, most of the guns had thier chambers reamed out to accomodate a .257 Roberts case. The case neck was opened up and you then had a 6.5-257 as it was called, a very popular way of getting these war souvenirs shooting again.

One cautionary note: The original bore size was .264. Most of the barrels were tight enough to allow the use of a .25 caliber bullet, but you might want to check by inserting one nose first in the muzzle and see where it stops.

By the way, the type 38 action is the strongest military action every built as proven by P.O.Ackley and White Laboratories years ago.

[Ed in North Texas]

snip

One cautionary note: The original bore size was .264. Most of the barrels were tight enough to allow the use of a .25 caliber bullet, but you might want to check by inserting one nose first in the muzzle and see where it stops.

By the way, the type 38 action is the strongest military action every built as proven by P.O.Ackley and White Laboratories years ago.

While all 6.5mm bores are supposed to be nominal .264 (well, according to SAAMI, anyway), the Type 38 production rifles almost never (I'd say never, but there would be one out there somewhere) were that small. That applies to most (if not all) other turn of the century 6.5mm military rifles too. The Arisaka Type 38 usually ran .268 or .269. Hornady's 160 grain RNSP, very similar configuration - but not FMJ - to the original 6.5 military ammo (Jap and Greek - at the moment I'm not remembering for sure the bore diameters on the Italian) is a .268. The shape is the same for the Swede, but the Swede has a tighter groove diameter IIRC).

Ed

[ilcop22]

I'm failry certain it is an insert, yes. Looking from the breach into the bore, I can see it (though I can't describe what I see... My words fail me there). Looking at the muzzle, you can see a tiny gap between the rifling and the actual barrel. If you take your fingernail, you can feel between the rifling and the bore. I'll try and get a pic and post it for consensus.

[ilcop22]

Additional info. The top of the barrel, above the chamber, is stamped "257". I suspect this may be a 6.5x257 which you have all referred to. I ordered some more alloy for a chamber cast.

[TCLouis]

If it does check out to be a 6.5X257 then load data for it in the Hornady 4th edition (do not know about newer editions).

[3006guns]

You can see a gap between the rifling and the bore? Well, whatever you're describing doesn't sound normal to me...at least in a standard Jap barrel. There would be no reason to line the barrel if it was made into a 6.5x257. If it actually IS a liner, I wonder if someone went to all that trouble and expense to make a regular .257 Roberts? If so, it would have been cheaper to buy a new barrel and either option defeats the idea of an inexpensive hunting rifle.

Please post what your findings are once you get chamber and bore dimensions. I'm really curious now!

Ed in North Texas...you are correct. I was speaking of the nominal, accepted size and I should have made that clear. Thank you for pointing that out. The "test" for a good conversion candidate (using a .25 bullet in the muzzle) was given to me by an older gentleman that did several of them and I thought it might give a clue as to bore size.

[Ed in North Texas]

3006guns: De nada. And I suspect all of us following this thread are very, very curious as to what that barrel really is. If it is a bored and re-lined barrel, we may just have to acknowledge that there is no end to the dumb things people will do.

Ed

[ilcop22]

I've attached a picture of what's better described as a "lip" (not a gap) between the bore and the rifling. If I have misidentified that as a liner, please do say so. The chamber cast won't happen until probably the end of the week, but I'll definitely post caliper measurements when I get that done.

[Char-Gar]

I suspect that is not a liner, but part of the crown, although it is a funny way to do things. Looks like a bevel was cut in he bore, and then the guy did the rest of the crown, but didn't want to run the tool bit into the bore. Looks wierd, but don't see why it won't shoot.

My Japanese Type I "Italian" has a barrel groove diameter of .269. To my eyeball, looks like Medford type rifling.

[flounderman]

I have a couple of 6.5 japs that I chambered to 6.5-257. I just tried a 25 caliber jacketed bullet in the muzzle. it is a hard press fit. the 264 jacketed will not go in the muzzle. it is hard to tell from the picture but a liner would be thicker, I believe. if you can push a 25 caliber bullet in the muzzle, it's a 6.5. the original jap rifling was rounded rather than square cut, also.

[bob208]

and to add more to the confusion most of the vets that fought againest these rifles called them .25 japs. or jap 25.

[ilcop22]

I completed the chamber cast this evening, and it is chambered in .257 Roberts. I matched the cartridge dimensions from my Lee reloading manual. I'm very confident in this, especially since it verifies the stamp on the barrel over the chamber that reads "257". I recommended a fire at your own risk due to the barrel's age and the fact it has almost no rifling left in it... Surprisingly, no significant pitting, though. Told him it's a great candidate for a rebarrel/new cartridge, which is what I would do with it if it were my gun, most certainly. Thanks for all your help!

[madsenshooter]

Does the neck diameter match the .257, or is it a 6.5 x 257? A lot of type 38s get trashed because people think they have little rifling, but they were made that way, they use the metford rifling system.

[Ed in North Texas]

I finally got a Round Tuit and checked the muzzle of my 2 Type 38s. The metal on both is "as issued" (military stock is replaced on one) less the bolt cover. Neither one has a crown which looks at all like that one. Strange looking crown, if that is what it is.

Ed

[ilcop22]

The owner of the gun doesn't seem to interested in using it, anyway. He contacted me about a rebarrel in 308, but that's beyond my capabilities (no lathe). Know any good persons/companies who I may recommend to him?

[Ed in North Texas]

The owner of the gun doesn't seem to interested in using it, anyway. He contacted me about a rebarrel in 308, but that's beyond my capabilities (no lathe). Know any good persons/companies who I may recommend to him?

Well, I'm assuming he wouldn't be in the market for a Shilen, McGowen. Lilja or Kreiger barrel (don't even know if all of those do bolt action work).

ER Shaw has been in business since my Dad was a teenager (and he was born in 1904), so I think they have a pretty good business model. I haven't looked at their prices in years (back when you could get their barrel, installed, for under $100.00). They certainly have lots of experience with putting new barrels on military rifles, and they still do installation, bolt handle alterations and bluing.


http://ershawbarrels.com/

Ed

[Shooter6br]

Jap.......... bolt gives it away.