Question-Minie ball

[horsesoldier]

Hello,
I am using a minie ball in my cabelas 58 caliber, but when I load my first round it just slides down the barrel. I am worried when I am hunting it could slide out of position when it comes time to fire. I dont cast(yet) but these are the minie balls I am using.http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=287189878

They shoot really well.I am thinking about wrapping my first minie in cigerette paper just enough to make it a little snug.After the first shot it doesnt really matter, it is snug enough. Of course next time I head to the range I will see if I get a change in my point of impact. I always forget how much that old gun kicks, even just with 70 grain of triple 7 2f.

[flydoc]

I think when you tamp the boolit down a bit the skirt expands a touch and comes in contact with the rifling enough to stay put. Easy enough to test the theory, just point the muzzle down and give it a good shake, then gently re-insert the rod to see if the rod goes in the same distance it does when you seat it the first time. If that shows the minie is moved away from the powder, you can put a greased patch over the minie to keep it place. I've done that without any ill effects. The grease patch may reduce fouling, too.

[horsesoldier]

Thanks much, I will try it next rangeday!

[405]

You are correct in not wanting to fire one with the minie half way down the barrel!!

I did some experimenting with minies of different sizes and how they could move in a clean bore, even using my best minie, a .584" N-S design. And yes, it would move in a clean bore. Since many of the muskets have a little tighter muzzle than breech dimension, even a slightly oversized minie when loaded can loosen as it approaches the breech/powder seating position.

Actually a couple of years ago, the last time I took my 58 rifled musket hunting, I did exactly as you are thinking of doing for exactly the same reasons. At the range where everything is controlled I don't worry too about a slipping minie in a clean bore- but am aware of the potential. But out hunting is a different matter. While I didn't use cigarette paper I did use a similar, extremely thin paper just to snug up the first (most important!) minie loaded in a clean bore. That combination shot to same POI and was just as accurate as a minie without the thin wrap of paper.

[horsesoldier]

Its good to hear from someone else who ran into the same issue. I am going to dial it in at 50 yards next range day, then see how it does at 100. That old 510 grain slug is moving pretty slow with just 70 grains of powder, any idea how high at 50 yards I am going to be for it to be dead on at 100? I am thinking 2 or 3 inches. Should drop any mulie I can hit with it though.

I am thinking after I zero it in at 100 yards I should focus on shooting offhand and kneeling out to 125 yards.Might just put some paper plates out at various ranges. With only 70 grains of powder I am thinking 125 yards maximum range. I have to get over my little flinch habit I acquired from cci no.11 caps. I switched to rws musket caps and it pretty much eliminated my hangfire issues. two years ago I smoked this 4x4 mulie with a 50 caliber. 90 grains of triple 7 2f with a great plains 385 grains hollowpoint. I was not impressed with the penetration of the 385 grain and I had the chance to purchuse this 58. I am staying away from hollow points for the time being.Any tips on zeroing distance or anything to do with smokepole hunting would be greatly appeciated!
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m538/Andrew338win/0272.jpg

[Hellgate]

I shoot 90grs of either 3F or 2F Goex in my Zouave, Musketoon, or St. Louis Hawken under either a 575213-OS 435gr "old Style" minie or the 530 gr heavy skirted 577611(?). When sighted in 5" high at 50 yds they are on zero at 100.

[horsesoldier]

Looks like I might need to increase my powder charge a little. Thats quite an arc for 70 grains.

[FLINTNFIRE]

You do not acquire flinching from the misfires that is a recoil issue ,only shows up noticeable on misfires , I shoot 58 , 50 , and 45 and they all penetrate with right charge ,distance .. ,I quit shooting the substitute black powders and shoot triple f ,no misfires and I believe more reliability,and consistency , besides I want to shoot smokeless ,modern , I go to cartridge .
I use several sizes of minies ,depending on my bore diameter ,different molds for different guns, and a good solid seat , and yes I still check here and there while out walking , Do not have my trajectory charts on this computer , But they do drop ,big fat slugs going slow , but when all is said and done they were state of the art at one time , and I enjoy mine from the flinters to the civil war era and the modern (to my thinking) TC new englander

[sharps4590]

I believe you made the right decision in choosing to stay away from hollowpoints. I never cared for them. Impressive expansion, you betcha, but as you noted the penetration leaves something to be desired. For me I prefer penetration to expansion. Evidently you have eliminated your misfire problem by changing to musket caps but I would still recommend real black powder over any of the imitations. I believe you would find your ES and SD numbers to be lower with black.

[Gray Fox]

Horsesoldier: This is a synopsis of the method Sam Fadala described in the old Gun Digest Black Powder Loading Manual, I hope it helps.

He sights in .45-.58 rifles with conicals doing 1,500 fps (a stout load in .58) at 13 yards, then shoots at 50 and 75 yard adjusting only for windage. If a shooter sights in for dead on at 75 yards "He can shoot from zero to 75 yards knowing that his bullet will print on at about 13 yards, about an inch high at 50 yards, about 1 inch low at 100 yards, and about 1/2 foot low at 125 yards". If you can't handle that heavy of a load in .58, I'll bet the basic system will still help with a consistent lesser charge. He stipulates 2,000 fps with round ball and I can't come close except in my .50 cal.

This is the method I use for my .50 and .54 Hawkens and it works pretty much as he describes it. I hope this helps. GF

[horsesoldier]

The flinching came from never knowing when the 58 is going to go off when I was using the cci caps. I ordered a round ball mould so I think I am going to give that a try.

1500 with my minies? I am thinking 110 or 120 grains of powder.Thats alot of kick! I am going to finish sighting in with my leadsled so I can get a good zero. Then practice practice!

This roundball mould should be fun. Never have shot too many round balls before, none in the 58.I do have a box of them for a 54 I might melt down and make them 58's. Be cool to shoot a deer with a ball I made myself! Not to mention my first ever cast boolits!

[horsesoldier]

Good points all. Thank you guys for the advice. If I ever get the chance to get some real black you can bet I am gonna try it.I posted this on another board I frequent and the only replys I have got were telling me to quit using fake powder. lol He didnt think it was a good excuse I would have to drive to another state apprently. Sure appeciate the crowd here much more.

[405]

Not sure what to expect about accuracy.. shooting a 58 minie at those velocities? Maybe some of the thick skirted varieties can stand those powder charges. Are you talking about a minie or a solid base conical? There is a difference.

If you keep your gun half way clean, a normal #11 nipple and cap will ignite regular blackpowder instantly in any type muzzleloader- small caliber or large.

Blackpowder can be shipped to your door (unless you live in a third world state or jurisdiction I guess but I'm not certain where those places are). All you pay is set hazmat fee. If you get together with another BP shooter or two you can share the extra shipping fee. By doing that regular BP is same as or cheaper than retail by the pound for the substitutes.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well what I am thinking is test your flinching ,have someone else load or not load ,and watch for the flinch ,it is not a result of no ignition ,but of recoil , as for black if you are in the area I live I have some fffg I would let you shoot and some different molds you could try . And I agree that a #11 will ignite if the nipple channel is clean , and I do use #11 and #11 magnum and musket caps on the zouave and enfields ,as that is what they came with , PM me if you would like ..

[Hellgate]

When I'm working up an accurate load from the bench for my .58s I put a sand bag between my shoulder and the rifle butt. That way I only get a nice push and no flinch with heavy loads.

[David LaPell]

I used to compete with my 1853 Enfield musketoon at one of the local ranges and with my Minie balls from Track of the Wolf and Dixie Gun Works they kind of slide down the barrel. But I tamp them down pretty good at the bottom. I took a silver medal offhand at 100 yards with it the first match I shot it, and later that year a doe at the same range with those same Minie balls.

[10 ga]

I also have a Cabelas "hawken" style in .58 and don't use anything but PRB. It shoots real good and accurately. I can use light loads of only 60 gr. of F for plinkin and practice up to 110 gr. of FF for a hunting load and only the elevation changes and is easy to get used to. I only use "Holy Black" in my hammer guns and it isn't any messier than any other of the subs if you're shooting more than 2 shots. I prefer the .565 RBs but the .570s shoot same, just is a lot harder to start the PRB and tends to cut some of the patches, I use the heavy pillow ticking. I can tell you from experience that the 110 gr of FF Swiss under a .565 PRB ignited by a RWS musket cap will shoot clean through any deer at anything under 65 yds and only a double shoulder shot will stop the ball at under 100 yds. That 270+-gr RB really carries some power. As for the musket cap I upgraded all my hammer and slamfire guns to take musket caps with "Spitfire" nipples. I tried shooting the minnie balls but they gave too much recoil and too little PBR (point blank range). Try some PRBs. I think you'll like them. Best, 10 ga

[405]

horsesoldier,
If you are shooting the Lyman 575213OS... that is a variety (design and style) that was shot in and meant to be shot in CW era rifled muskets with a twist of about 1:70 and with a blackpowder charge of about 60 grs. I imagine your Cabela's 58 will have a faster twist? How the heavier charges will do with that minie combined with the faster twist is anyone's guess.

My standards of accuracy for all my muzzleloaders is about 1" circular group at 50 yards. Some of my MLs are quite a bit better than that and some rarely if ever reach it. My 58 rifled musket does have the 1:70+ twist and it is very particular about the type of minie and charge. Any decent PRB load seems to do very well and it is not particular of the load shooting the PRB. My best minie groups have been shot with either a Lee Improved style minie .579 paper patched or with a .584 N-S "target" type minie not patched. The most accurate charge for shooting these mines seems to be between 40-50 grs of FFF blackpowder with just a dab of lube in the base. For your rifle any advice is just that and experimentation within some guidelines will sort it out over time.

[Big Bub]

I am a long time member of the N-SSA, 4th Va. Cav, all the rifles we shoot have metal ramrods, so all that we do is give the boolit a couple of lite raps after it is down on the powder charge. To get it out you would have to use a screw type boolit puller or a large amount of compressed air. That being said I also have a 58 cal. Hawkin style rifle that I use for deer hunting, I had a friend who was a machinist make a steel ram rod for the deer rifle, use it the same as the civil war rifles, have to shoot the boolit out at the end of the day if no deer was taken. Just some food for thought...Rick Ramey