Need load advice for Smith 19-3

[TheDoctor]

Bought a 19-3, 6 inch, target sights. With factory 357, it hits where it is supposed to elevation wise. With 38, it hits way high. Lowered the rear sight as low as it would go, and it still hits way high. Am trying to shoot 158 cast. Pushed the 38's as hard as I could using factory data, and still too high. Load them in 357, and a near max load will bring them closer to point of aim, with the rear sight still all the way down. The only 158 I could get to point of aim was a 158 XTP, with a near max loading. Was wanting to use the 158, mainly because it's the only 357 mold I have at the moment, but have a strange feeling I will need to go with a lighter bullet. I don't want to beat the tar out of this gun, mainly looking for target/plinking loads. Would also like something that could hit with a degree of authority if necessary, but wouldn't shot very often. Main objective, find a load that this thing will shoot accurately with, and won't wear the gun out. Have heard that it is best to stay away from lighter, high velocity loads with this particular revolver. Thanks.

[shooting on a shoestring]

First congrats on purchasing a fine revolver. I'm a fellow Model 19 owner. Mine is a 6" bought new in the 70's. Its moved a mountain of WWs loaded in .38 cases. Mostly in the form of 358156 sans gas check. I was fortunate enough to get that pistol when I was 13. Didn't have but a handful of .357 brass, but had a bucket of .38 military brass, well Dad had it and I made use of it. Later on in the 90s I bought a wadcutter 358091 and still ran it mostly in .38 brass. Now days with .357 brass as easy or easier to get as .38s, I shoot mostly .357 brass in it.

I'm curious. What grips are on the gun? I'm surprised you have any trouble getting .38s to go where the gun is pointed. What distance are you shooting? Is your grip strength solid?

It is true you don't want to feed a K-Frame hot loads often, and certainly not hot loaded light bullets. It'll do fine with a steady diet of mid range .357s, especially with your 158 boolits.

It really should shoot .38s well also.

Has the front sight been filed down?

What powders are you using?

Have a chronograph?

Such interogation, my apologies. Just curious.

[TheDoctor]

It has the original grips on it. The front sight does not appear to have been filed. If it was, it was a real good job. Powders I have right now are Unique, Universal, Trail Boss, and H-110. Do not have a chrony here. Have one back home, was hoping not to have to duplicate many things since I am here for less than a year. So far, have been sticking to Hodgdons load data. Using CCI small pistol, with Star Line brass. Got some 135 Gold Dots today, may load them and try em this weekend. Shooting both freehand and from bags, 15-25 yards.

[shooting on a shoestring]

By original grips, i'm guessing Goncalo Alves, big, handfilling grips. That's what mine came with and still wears. Dad got a later Model 19 that came with rubber grips.

Well, assuming you've got a good grip on your grips and aren't letting the pistol work loose, the longer the boolit stays in the barrel when fired, the more time the muzzle has to rise, the higher the point of impact. Also, the heavier the boolit and powder mass, the more the muzzle will rise. I use Bullseye in my .38s at 3.0 to 3.5 grains with the 158 gr 358156 or 150 grain 358091. That works better than 5 to 5.5 grains of Unique in mine.

I haven't used Trail Boss so i'm not familiar with charge weights for it.

I'd suggest in .38s use light weight charges of fast powder to get about 900 fps out of that 6 inch barrel. Get the boolit out of the barrel before it rises much, and keep the mass of boolit and powder small to also help keep the muzzle down. Maybe that will help lower your point of impact with the .38s. You may need to go to something like the Lee 140 SWC and Bullseye.

I'm still surprised. I'd expect any Model 19 to put .38s very near where it deposits .357s.

You may be able to see some difference in POI = POA by playing with your grip tension. A harder grip on the grips may also keep your muzzle from climbing. You may be doing that with the .357s without realizing it just because your mind is expecting the the extra power and tells your body to "Hold on!". Your mind may be more relaxed when its about to touch of a .38 and hence you may be letting your grip down.

Sounds like some trips to the range are in order to further diagnois. Hope you enjoy.

[TheDoctor]

Will get some bullseye tomorrow and give it a try. I will have to pay attention to grip next time. Normally shoot .45's through HOT. 44's, and I do notice that I grip those more firmly. The gun has the G A wood grips. Quite a bit smaller than the ones on my N frames, but very comfortable, they fit my undersized paws better. But yeah, the 38's seem to be hitting about 3" high at 15 yards. Other than that, this one seems to be one of the more accurate handguns I own. It shoots better than I can manage more times than not.

[subsonic]

You will need to shoot faster velocity and/or lighter boolits to hit POA. Or put on a shorter rear sight blade, or a taller front sight blade. Those would be your options. Choose accordingly.
You might try the Lee 358-105gr SWC mold. Shoots pretty good, should shoot lower for you, and is frugal on lead.

[Char-Gar]

You will need to shoot faster velocity and/or lighter boolits to hit POA. Or put on a shorter rear sight blade, or a taller front sight blade. Those would be your options. Choose accordingly.
You might try the Lee 358-105gr SWC mold. Shoots pretty good, should shoot lower for you, and is frugal on lead.

Dead on advise.

[9.3X62AL]

The 125 grain Federal load (#357B) was developed with the K-frame 357 Magnum in mind. It features high velocity (1440 FPS), reliable expansion, moderated pressure (from full-tilt Douglas Wesson loads), and might shoot lower in the bargain. I'm in the process right now of working up practice loads that match this commercial load, since my old agency adopted this load for carry.

[bobthenailer]

S&W makes different height rear sight blades ! make sure you get a screw & nut also .
another better option is weigands rear sight blade also avalible in 3 heights also get the screw & nut . it takes a special screw driver or as i did take a regular screw driver and modify it to change the blade

[BLTsandwedge]

As much as it pains me to do so, I've got to throw out a caution to 9.3x62AL's post (in the old world, Deputy Al- the first one to hold my hand as we walked through a tight throat issue in a 629 classic- I've never found his information to be amiss. That was about 8 years ago). Note I've said I have a red flag- not an outright disagreement with the use of the 125g Jhp/sp in .357 with the 19-3.

I cracked the forcing cone on a very fine 19-3 using a warm-to-really warm 125g JHPs over H110. It took about 30 rounds to accomplish this- I was using Remington Gold Dot bullets and, if I recall, somewhere around 18g of H110. It doesn't seem to be an ultra-rare occurrence: http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

This article only serves to say that others have experienced the same thing- and I can't gain access right now to the S&W forum where I know there is a thread on this very subject. In short, it took 2 years to find a replacement barrel. A recommendation is to find out what you can about using 125 grainers for .357 in your 19-3. It happened to me; there's published information that it happened to others. Get into the S&W forum and find that thread.

[9.3X62AL]

I would be interested in reading that body of information--very much so.

I did look through the Winchester data from 1999. The 357 Magnum pressure readings for WW-231 powder sit at the 42K-42.5K CUP level, while the loads using WW-296 (the twin of H-110) sit at 35K-36K CUP--the current SAAMI max pressure standard. Specifically, the 125 grain JHP load of 18.5 grains of WW-296 gave 32,500K CUP and a very optimistic 1800 FPS.

S&W came out with the L-frame series 357 Magnum revolvers to attempt to address the occasional forcing cone cracks that have occurred in their K-frame 357s. The lowered SAAMI pressure standard was another move to address these concerns. FBI Labs were a part of this process, too

I know that Blue Dot powder was another problem child in this caliber, and in the 41 Magnum. I would contact Smith & Wesson directly, advising model and serial number, and seek their counsel on ammo questions and limitations. That will be my course of conduct.

The piece by Butch Kent was a good summary.

None of this sits really well with me, having to switch to an ammo type with the potential to cause major damage to my Model 19 x 2.5". The good, strong 158 grain WW JHP worked very well for 20+ years of service, and caused no issues in any frame size--J, K, L, or N. How the Federal #357B is such an "improvement" probably requires 12-13 PhDs and a propeller hatweren't collection to figure out. For my part, there really weren't any "bad" loads for he 357 Magnum, unless their characteristics cause inordinate wear. Maybe a 125 grain GC mould design would prevent or lessen these potential effects, citing Mr. Kent's info.

BTW, the M-19 x 2.5" is a -3 variant, pinned barrel and recessed case heads. It has the flat cut @ 6 o'clock on the forcing cone.