Minimum starch for deer to 70 yards or so?

[Abert Rim]

I was re-reading John Linebaugh's articles on the .45 Colt, and he mentioned that his wife had killed antelope with her short-barreled Abilene with a 250-grain bullet at 900 or 950. I'm looking at John Taffin's loads for .45 Auto Rim and he gets there with the same bullet. How far would you take a shot with a 250-grain Keith or flatnose at 950? Linebaugh seems to think this load is actually pretty adequate closer than 100 yards on game up to deer. What do y'all think?
I'm asking because I have my eye on a 625 in .45 ACP/AR.

[Glen]

Under ideal circumstances, 50, maybe 60 yards.

[DanWalker]

I shot an antelope last year at 40 yards with a 45LC keith boolit at 900 or so fps.
It traversed lengthwise 3/4ths of the way through the body. It entered in front of left shoulder and exited in front of right hip.
Based on what I saw when I opened the body cavity up to field dress it, I wouldn't hesitate to use this boolit, cast from a soft alloy, at out to 100 yards.
75 yards is my self imposed limit with an iron sighted 45 on game anyhow.
Funny, I can bust clay pigeons lying on the ground at 100 yards with pretty boring regularity, but let me settle my sights on a deer at 100 and darned if them sights don't hop around quite a bit.

[Junior1942]

Under ideal circumstances, 50, maybe 60 yards.
Same here.

[Lloyd Smale]

100 yards if you can hit the vitals 100 percent of the time. Me i kind of limit my handgun open sighted hunting to 75 yards but if i could get a perfect rest id surely not feel undergunned with that load at 100 yards.

[MGySgt]

75 yards with open sights and it don't matter if it would be that load, my 44 mag, or my 475 Linbaugh -

75 yards with open sights on a deer/hog/elk is a long way.

Drew

[nighthunter]

I think a good answer to this question is " at what distance can you place the bullet under field conditions? " Shooting at a deer at 100 yards is a lot different than killing one at 50 yards.
Nighthunter

[ron brooks]

For deer sized game I have always gone by how far off you can place all your shots in a 10 inch circle. Use a paper plate for a target. :-)

Ron

[357maximum]

My comfort zone for whitetail

ironsighted revolver= 125 yards
scope sighted revolver= 200 yards (if I am intimate with it)
scoped& rested tc pistol= 225 yards maybe a touch more If I could use a bottleneck cartridge.


the above is what I KNOW I CAN DO EVERYTIME, your milage may differ...

[Larry Gibson]

100 yards if you can hit the vitals 100 percent of the time. Me i kind of limit my handgun open sighted hunting to 75 yards but if i could get a perfect rest id surely not feel undergunned with that load at 100 yards.

Agree with Lloyd, it's a matter of you being able to put the bullet where it belongs. That 250 gr Kieth bullet starting out at 950 or so fps will be able to kill deer long past where most of us can hit the heart/lung area.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

I hold the opinion that any cast semi- wadcutter going 900 fps or faster, weighting 200 grains or more, and being 40 cal or larger will take deer cleanly out to 100 yards. The limiting factor is the shooters ability to place the bullet where he wants.

In the Days or Yore, I killed a number of deer with the 240 grain Lyman 452423 fired out of a Colt Govt Model (45 ACP) going a hair over 800 fps. I shoot the same bullet today at 950 fps out of several Smith DA sixguns in 45 ACP and would have no fear going after deer with such a rig.

[Abert Rim]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. I just came into a Smith Model 625-3 in .45 ACP/Auto Rim, and figure it would be a humane deer killer as far as I can shoot it accurately, which for me and a four-inch barrel is going to be no further than 75 yards at the most.

[45 2.1]

I hold the opinion that any cast semi- wadcutter going 900 fps or faster, weighting 200 grains or more, and being 40 cal or larger will take deer cleanly out to 100 yards. The limiting factor is the shooters ability to place the bullet where he wants.

In the Days or Yore, I killed a number of deer with the 240 grain Lyman 452423 fired out of a Colt Govt Model (45 ACP) going a hair over 800 fps. I shoot the same bullet today at 950 fps out of several Smith DA sixguns in 45 ACP and would have no fear going after deer with such a rig.

The smaller the deer, the more correct your statement. On bigger deer, it will kill, BUT you might not find them either. I have gone the expanding hollow point route instead of hard, balls to the wall loads as those failed me on a couple of occasions while the cast hollow points have dropped them in their tracks.

[Blackwater]

A buddy shot 3 deer last season with his .45 ACP, a 5" Springfield Armory job. Two were with the Lee 230 TC's I'd cast and given him, and the 3rd was with an Oregon Trail 200 gr. RNFP. The 230 was moving at 965 fps, and the 200 at 1060 fps. None of these were really large deer, the largest being about 140 lb. or so, and the smallest nearer 100. All were clean one shot kills, but all were hit dead center near the heart. Near perfect shots.

Now from all I've seen, and I've helped dress and autopsy 30+ deer, the only consistent thing I've seen is that a good shot with ANY caliber gives you venison, and promptly so, while poor hits seldom give you any venison at all.

This of course coincides with that old adage about making good shots. Maybe those old timers knew a thing or two after all, eh?

I know some country boy farmers who regularly take deer with their .22 LR's, but they take head or base of neck shots, and they never have a problem. Some yahoos who can't shoot for beans can't seem to get venison no matter WHAT caliber or bullet they use.

That buddy with the 3 .45 ACP kills last season has probably shot more deer with a handgun than anybody I know, and I'd guess he's probably killed over 200, and maybe over 300. He does a lot of crop damage shooting for several local farmers, and has done this for some 20+ years now. His observations were that .45 Hardball doesn't kill deer very quickly, and the lighter HP's don't penetrate enough too much of the time. With cast bullets, though, it seems to be a decent performer - always provided the shots are good, though that applies to anything.

The 9mm with some HP loads actually did better than the .45s, though I know that's heresy. They seemed to penetrate just enough deeper to get the job done on deer a bit better than the .45's. .45 LC and .357's always worked very well with good hits, the deer almost never (nothing's "always" in the field) going further than 25 to at most 50 yds. This is with either jacketed or cast, hp's or rn's.

Oh yes, and one favorite example of mine of my buddy's talents, is when he had a S&W 624 4" and shot a deer with a Lyman 429421 over 7.5 gr. Unique and the bullet went clean through the deer from end to end. The deer spun as he encountered it, and he made the proverbial Texas heart shot, the bullet striking about center of mass between the hams, and not hitting any bone until it went out the breast bone in front. The deer took one bound and piled up, kicking its last. A 2nd shot quelled even that, and gracefully ended it. I ate part of that deer, and it was great!

99% of our worries about what'll take a deer are more to bolster our confidence, I think, than anything we really NEED to concern ourselves with. Maybe the Madison Ave. ads DO work, after all, or maybe we just need some reassuring? I know if I EVER get to the point I don't get excited at seeing a deer, I'll quit hunting.

If that 230 TC Lee bullet at 965 will take 3 in a row cleanly, and you can place your bullets well, then you'll have no trouble whatsoever with any other .45 with any similar bullet, I think. The bigger the flat, the better, and the better placed the shot, the better, but other than that, I don't think there's any real concern here about what'll take deer.

BTW, that buddy who's shot so many deer with the handguns used an old Colt SAA with factory or factory equivalent loads to take honest truckloads of deer and feral hogs as a young teenager. Never had a problem, as long as the shot was good. He even took one 500 lb boar, but had to hold the shot until he could get a favorable angle on its head & neck. A shot to the head, and he had PLENTY of bacon. Hog stunk so bad, though, that he left it lay. It had been destroying a good size portion of a friend's planted field, and the farmer was VERY thankful to be rid of its probably future damage to his crops.

Deer just ain't all that hard to kill .... IF you hit 'em right, with a bullet that'll reach and disrupt the vitals. Remember, when comparing loads that work on people to loads that'll work on game, you either have to hit the people from the side, with the big arm bones in the way, or you have to crawl up underneath the deer to hit them in what would correspond to a frontal chest hit. This is what skews so many comparisons of good self defense bullets vs. good game bullets.

[KCSO]

What range under 100 yards can you keep ALL your shots from field positions in or under 8"? That is the range, the limiting factor here is not the gun or load but the shooter. A 45-250 will KILL at 100 yards. I usualy limit my shots to 50 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

Blackwater

I've shot numerous mule deer (150-200+ lbs) along with dogs, sheep and a few goats (domestic types) with the .45 ACP using several different bullets. Never had a problem with penetration with any of them through the deer "shoulder". There's really not a big "arm" bone there as in a human. It is more a shoulder blade. The leg bone is below the chest cavity and if you hit that bone you've missed the heart/lung anyway. Best killer was the old Speer 200 FAT bullet (Flying Ash Tray for those who don't know) at 890 fps (factory load) or 1015 fps (7.5 gr Unique). The factory 185 Silver Tips did pretty well at 960 fps buth the Remington +P 185s at 1100 fps were just like FMJs. A Lymand 452460 cast of WWs over the same 7.5 gr of Unique at 1020 fps was good killer as you mention. I also shot a 200 lb black bear that was tree'd by dogs with Hornady 185s running 925 fps out of a Commander. The tree was on a sidehill so I was able to get level with the bear. First two shots were through the shoulder then he faced me and took 3 in the chest. Killed him dead. Recovered one bulle in the off shoulder as the other 4 were through and through. Could have reloaded that bullet again, no expansion, zip, nada.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

45 2.1 I don't know about big deer. The largest Texas deer I ever shot was a 10 point mule deer than ran about 160 lbs live weight.. I killed him with a 45-70. The Whitetail I have killed with a pistol have all been much smaller. I doubt if any of the bucks ran over about 130 lbs and the does have all been under 100 lbs.

[Blackwater]

Larry, good valid points. Were the shots broadsides? Most of the handgun shot deer my buddy took were on cropping permits for farmers who had a serious excess of deer. Most shots were within 50 yds. and probably all were under 75. A good many, though, were angling shots, and the penetration was just not there with the HP's, but too, this was quite a few years ago now, and the HP's of today are much better. From what I've seen, I'd expect a Golden Sabre to do well in the J-bullet dept., and probably the Speer Gold Dots too. HP's are still not "perfect," but they're a whole lot better than they once were.

The comments re the bone placement is certainly true, too. I was just trying to point out that there IS a significant differnce in the way a bullet has to perform on deer vs. a human. Maybe not TOTALLY different, but often significant. I usually try to get my bullet right up next to the shoulder blade, and from what I've seen, many try to hit a little further back than I try to. That's what I've observed over the years, anyway. Maybe I need to hang around better shots? I think they're "average," though, or close to it. They also have 4 legs to keep them going where we only have 2, which can be a factor. Their physiology and "thought processes," if you can call it that, are also differnt. One thing I've seen pretty consistently is that it sometimes a bullet with a great man-stopping reputation can be marginal on deer.

Recounting various bullets' effects on game can be a real poser. For instance, when Lee Juras was making the Super Vels, I shot a big fox squirrel out of the top of a large pecan tree, and the bullet took off almost the entire left (as I remember it) side ribcage. After the critter hit the ground, it sat there panting for a few brief moments, getting its marbles back in place after the fall from that tall tree, and THEN it just hopped off, hobbing only a little due to no effective left front paw. Another shot put it to sleep instantly, but I couldn't help but marvel that I'd been able to see the squirrel's heart beating through the opened side, and yet it kept on going surprisingly well in spite of the wound. Had that shot been even 1/2" closer to center (dang small target), I'm sure it would have been dead before it hit the ground.

That's just another example that has convinced me that it's ALMOST all about where you hit them. Accounts of early settlers and hunters in Africa when the '06 was new, and generally decent performance (for the time, anyway) on game large and small, convinces me even further. So what do I like best for deer? If I absolutely HAD to kill a deer DRT, I'd have to vote for the .270 with most any decent 130 gr. bullet (J-type, of course), or maybe the .25/06 with 100 gr. bullets. On our southern whitetails that probably avg. from 140-180 lbs., with few going over 180 generally, those bullets seem to get the most from that old debatable hydrostatic shock thing. SOMETHING is sure working to "electrocute those deer, and even somethimes with less than perfect shots. That's NOT a sure, every-time thing, to be certain, but it does work at least a lot of the time IF the shot's at least close to the center.

Now, I want to broaden my horizons, and do things a little differently - maybe "the hard way," and challenge myself more. It's more about the hunt now, rather than just taking another head for the freezer.

This is probably the most crucial question we hunters all deal with, and yet, the one that most defies a really definitive answer. I've pursued it for a long time, and have spent many hours skinning and picking through animals, hoping to learn something, and make some generalizations over time. When an ostensibly poorly hit deer falls like lightning, while another well hit one runs 200 yds., one just has to wonder if the Red Gods aren't just funnin' with us. However, all the people I know who have the most experience, and whose word can be trusted, seem to at least generally agree that shot placement is THE most crucial element in the process, given only that the bullet MUST penetrate to the vitals at whatever angles apply for that shot. Also, a bullet that JUST reaches the vitals is about played out, and may not have much effect.

Accuracy and persistence if the deer doesn't drop at the shot sure go a long way toward making venison. So far (knock on wood!) it's been other folks' deer I've had to track, but I know my time's probably coming, especially now that I'm challenging myself more. I almost never take a rifle afield that won't do MOA or better, and high velocity at usually not too far distance DOES have an effect on our whitetails, IF the bullet's placed right. I hunt from trees or stands, usually, and shoot at still deer, knowing when to hold the shot (well, almost always). This makes the actual kill easier than those who hunt in other conditions or using other methods. I've only had to shoot one running deer, and that was at 265 yds. I got it, but hit it too far back by about 6" or 8". I thought it was wounded, but it was later found to be another deer that hadn't been hit before my shot. It went 75 yds. and lay down, and couldn't get back up, and was clearly dying when I found it and finished it off. That was an '06 with 165 gr. Speer bullet, and the extra penetration on that angling shot was appreciated after the fact, when compared to the 130 gr. .270's.

If one hunts a lot, he'll see a lot of stuff, and some of it will defy reason, at least seemingly. Large portions over a long time will create a pattern, though, and that's about as "predictable" as hunting and shooting deer is ever going to get, I think.

Your experience I believe 100%. Others I trust have reported the same, but there's enough difference to make me wonder if lot to lot variations in manufacturing the bullets might not apply. Don't know, but have to wornder at least.

When I was a probabion officer, several really bad guys escaped a prison van on the way to a trial, and one was a big fella' who wound up being shot 6 times, all with .357 magnums. He intended to die rather than go back to prison. Miraculously, he lived! IIRC, some Rem. 125 gr. HP's didn't reach the vitals with enough oomph to do the job, and a 158 gr. Win. HP's went through with hardly any expansion, and nothing vital got cut along the way. It cost the taxpayers a LOT of money for the surgery and medical treatment necessary to return him to prison. I doubt a smaller, more "average" fellow would have survived, but this guy (@ 280 lbs, IIRC, and HARD, too) surely did. This isn't a lone instance, and the exceptions from the "average" when it comes to gunshot wounds surely can make one scratch their heads and wonder.

I've just seen and had reliable reports of enough "exceptions" with the .45 and light HP's that I don't want to use them myself on deer, and I'll take a cast bullet ANY day in the ACP. My .44, .357, the Maxi, and Herrett just make it not a good thing to do to hunt with the .45, though, so I'll have to continue to rely on others' reports that I know I can trust. ANY bullet is DANGEROUS, and I can't quarrel with any who've done well with the HP's. There are just too many "ifs" for me to feel good about using them. As hard nosed as I can appear sometimes, I HATE even the thought of not killing a deer cleanly, and I do all I can to do my best. That's one reason I've usually chickened out, and haven't used my own handguns more often. I've finally seen enogh, I think, to have enough faith in myself and handguns and cast bullets to take them afield without twinges of conscience, and momentary doubts at critical moments. That took some doing, but the other stuff's just getting boring, and part of the reason I hang around here is to ensure I get it right BEFORE I take the liberties of using something less than a "death ray," or its near kin.

[GLynn41]

both Veral Smith and Beartooth bullets recomend 1250 or so and a wide meplat in what ever calibur

[Larry Gibson]

Blackwater

The shots varied as most of these were injured animals that needed to be dispatched. As such I was able to pretty much pick the shot. These varied from broadside, frontal and raking. No Texas heart shots or shots that would not enter through the ribcage towards the heart were attempted with the handgun. Ranges varied from 10 paces or so out to 50 yards or so. Almost all the animals were standing when shot. Certainly agree with you on the quality of HPs back then. Many did not open at all that we could tell and some opened very rapidly. However I can’t think of a single incident where the expanding HPs in the .45 ACP out of a 5” barrel failed to penetrate the on side and through the heart/lung area. Granted most were stopped in the offside but the killing had been done.

I quit using the “behind the shoulder” shot years ago. Unless the animal is quartering away from you it is only a lung shot and while it will kill the dying can take a long time and with a long distance traveled. What I use and advocate for most shots on big game is to envision a soccer ball low in the chest cavity between the front legs. Always try to put your bullet through the middle of that soccer ball regardless of the angle of the shot and the heart and thickest part of the lungs will be hit. The animal will die very quickly and travel the least distance. With a proper bullet Meat damage is minimal. With most all handgun bullets you can (to quote Elmer)”eat right up to the hole”.

Yes, it is difficult to predict with certainty an animal’s reaction to being shot, especially with a handgun even if the shots are basically the same shot. Some die quickly, some die slower, some drop to the shot and some travel before dropping. One thing is certain however, put a bullet through that soccer ball and the animal is dead. How long it takes to get that way depends. The problem with men is intelligence. Deer are prey and have tenacity about life so even when hit their instinct is to flee. If the CNS is knocked out they cannot flee. If the heart, major arteries and major area of the lungs are destroyed the blood pressure to the brain fails and the CNS (the brain) is then taken out and they also can not flee any farther. In this case they may have fled some but they will drop when the CNS ceases to function. One is very quick and the other can be quick or slow….it depends.

However humans because of their intelligence (low that it may be in many instances) know when they are shot they can or are going to die. Most just lie down and cry to mama. This is whether the hit was lethal or not. Many in fact die on the spot from non-lethal wounds because their brain tells them they are dead so they die. Thus humans are different than deer and unless you are up against a true warrior type of human they are not hard to “stop”. That brings up another point; we talk in terms of stopping power with humans meaning simply that they cease and desist their anti social behavior. Killing them is for the most part not considered for politically correct reasons these days. However with big game animals like deer we are talking about killing shots. Two different concepts those are.

I’ve killed enough deer since I was 12 years old to know there is no such thing as a “best” deer cartridge especially with rifles. As you say “ it's ALMOST all about where you hit them”. The part that’s not in that “almost” is you have to be able to hunt/shoot and you must stay within the limitations of yourself and the cartridge/bullet/rifle you are using. Bullet placement is in fact critical and the bullet must reach the vitals (there’s that soccer ball again). However, a bullet that goes through the vitals has killed that animal whether it is played out afterwards or not. A .22LR bullet passing through a deer’s heart will kill that deer just as dead as a .45 caliber bullet. The deer may take longer getting dead with the .22LR hole but in the end it will be just as dead. We pick larger calibers and better bullets to decrease the killing time. Regarding handgun bullet selection for deer hunting you will find in all my posts I say that for the most part the lighter (not necessarily the lightest) fast stepping HPs are quicker killers than hard cast bullets (even with wide meplats). I don’t say they are better because dead is dead and the hard cast bullet put in that soccer ball kills deer very nicely. It is up to the shooter to determine which is better for him/her. Hell, I use both but I’ve given my preference for use in the .45 ACP as I know it works well.

“If one hunts a lot, he'll see a lot of stuff, and some of it will defy reason, at least seemingly.” THAT sir is a very astute observation! There is no handgun bullet (that is reasonable in this conversation) that gives 100% stops on humans just as there is no bullet that drops deer 100% of the time. As I said before, I’ve had deer drop to the shot and had them travel quite a distance from an identical shot. There are other circumstances we may not be aware of that make the difference. One thing I’ve have noticed on similar shots though is; whether or not the deer drops or runs the time to die is pretty much the same.

Obviously you’ve made your choice to use cast bullets and have faith in that choice. I certainly won’t argue with that as with a hard hold, good sight picture and smooth trigger pull you will be successful.

Larry Gibson

[Blackwater]

Larry, sounds like our experiences mesh about as well as any are destined to. It's humbling, isn't it, to realize that there's really NOT any "death ray" out there? That buddy said something last year that's finally made me realize that now's "my time" for cast, when he observed that except for one really large field he hunts that's chock full of deer, and where shots are likely to be long, there are very few places either of us hunts any more where shots are likely to exceed even 100 yds. Tailor made setup for cast, IMO. I no longer enjoy getting kicked as much as I used to, also, which is yet another motivation for me, as is my tendency toward the experimental. Like the robber in the movie "Dirty Harry," .... "I gots ta' know!" ;^)

One thing that you mentioned about the difference in men's and deer's mindsets brought this to mind also. The .22 LR, and especially the HS .22 LRHP's, seem to kill deer much more quickly than I'd expect. Used to be a probabion officer, and got assigned all the night hunting cases, and I used to talk to them about the near universal choice of the .22 due to the noise factor and their attempts to be covert. The ones whose words I was as sure as I could be were trustable, all described the exact same thing. They'll occasionally drop at the shot, but almost always run maybe 50 yds. and then drop. I think (?) that's because the low report of the little .22's doesn't scare them as bad, and maybe they don't realize they're in as much trouble as they really are because there's no big "BOOM" like there is with a bigger caliber. That's far from knowledge - just the only explanation I can see that SEEMS to fit ... maybe.

Thanks for the encouragement. Long use of the big fast guns means I KNOW their results very predictably. Teh first time I used my Contender, I was nervous as a cat. Doubt IS a real accuracy killer! Learned that when I first shot in competition, too. Discipline is the only reason I probably made that first pistol shot work, I think. When I got to the deer, I was amazed at the damage that little pistol bullet (125 gr. Nos. BT @ 1971 fps.) had done. Seeing IS believing, and I suspect that I'll again be nervous as the proverbial cat when I draw a bead with my first cast bullet. Seems I'm a slow learner with some things. However, long experience will, I HOPE, keep the hand steady and the squeeze smooth. To tell the truth, I'm actually looking forward to the increased tension involved. It's just gotten to be very boring to use the big guns and fast loads. Too much like going to the grocery store and picking out your meat. I loved bow hunting for the same reason, but can't stand the @#$%^&* gnats here in SE Ga.!!! I can sit and watch a mosquito drink my blood while I burn and itch like crazy, and not bat an eye. Let one gnat get around my face, though, and I start waving "Bye bye" to all the deer anywhere near. Now that I've got a Thermacell, maybe I'll get to bowhunt more too .... if the heat's not unbearable.

If hunting ever ceases to be fun and something of a challenge, I'll quit, and just shoot paper, cans and dirt clods. I think cast should heighten the challenges and excitement, and that's good with a couple of grandboys coming along. Excitement's always contagious. The 7 yr old has his own .223, and I've got some TSX's loaded up. They're doing really good things for that caliber's use on deer. If he winds up half the shot his Dad was, he'll do very well. Can't wait to "blood him." Darn fine kids. I'm a lucky guy in more ways than one.

[6pt-sika]

When I hunt with my old Marlin levers or the newer Marlin Cowboy levers . I only use home cast and open , tang or peep sights . I also only cast WW's and don't normally load much over 1600 fps in anything .

So I will put myself in spots that limit my shots to no more then 75 yards .

[deadguy]

100 pound deer? 140 pound deer? Where are you guys finding deer that small???

[RugerFan]

100 pound deer? 140 pound deer? Where are you guys finding deer that small???

When I lived in central Texas I killed several whitetail bucks (ranging from 1 1/2 to 4 1/2 years of age) and none exceeded 85 lbs dressed. I shot a forky that dressed at 64 lbs.

[tom barthel]

Practice is the key. I once missed a shot at about 10-15 yards. I framed the deer perfect in the rear sight. The front sight was pointed under him. I can miss at any range. If I slow down and concentrate, 25 yards would be a sure kill. Around this part of the country, 50 yards is a very long range shot with ANY firearm. A lot of brush means close shots. A big heavy slow moving slug will usually go right through them.

[Junior1942]

I killed a little buck this year with my muzzleloader at a range of maybe 15 feet. Iron sights, of course. My aim was for his heart. My hit was in his spine above his rear legs. That's a 2 foot miss at 15 feet. In my defense, he came from the wrong direction--don't they always?--and I was in an awkward position.

[Blackwater]

Junior, a buddy carries a pistol for just such occasions. He and I both have bad backs, and don't swivel around as well as we used to. He always uses a 4" revolver, or a 4-5" auto because they're easier to hold with one hand when the target's close. Amazing how easy it is to miss, ain't it? A bad back sure makes those twist-around shots a LOT harder!

[Junior1942]

Blackwater, I learned a couple of things because of that bad shot. The little buck was above me somewhat. My 320 gr REAL pushed with 77 gr FF equiv went through his guts, through his spine, and did not penetrate the skin on the opposite side. IOW, one only hole in the deer. From now on I'll forget the recoil and go with a 100 gr equiv load for more velocity.

Also, from now on I'm packing a Ruger Old Army for a fast (and legal) second shot. I would have lost the little buck if I hadn't broken his spine.