What happen to the 300 H&H Magnums? Winchester M70 NM Target Rifle gone too?

[Just Duke]

Did the 300 Winchester Magnum replace the 300 H&H magnum?
Looks like it can be made from .375 H&H Magnum brass.
The Palma Rifles also seemed to have disappeared also.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/DSC_0734.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/558062270_o.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/6344410284014484000hun01hy.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/634441028397548200pxcsrocz.jpg




Winchester 70 .300 H&H Magnum caliber rifle. Heavy barrel "Bull" gun in scarce .300 H&H magnum caliber. Has been re-stocked with a nicely figured deluxe walnut custom benchrest style stock. The barrel may be a replacement, has a jewel trigger. A nice looking custom Pre-64 Model 70 target rifle, in desirable .300 H&H magnum caliber. http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/index.php/winchester-70-300-h-h-magnum.html

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/w5571a.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/w5571d.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/w5571c.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/w5571b.jpg

[Moondawg]

There are still Palma rifles around, but not many on winchester actions. Precision actions have advanced greatly since the days of the pre-64 Winchester Mdl 70. I may be wrong, but I think the only caliber allowed for Palma Match is the .308 Win. and bullets are restricted in weight. Palma Match is a fairly popular rifle discipline. You might want to google it and check and see what the current equipment rules are.

The pictured rifle has a replacement stock, replacement barrel and replacement trigger, all of which have greatly decreased its value.

[Moondawg]

WOW, $2,450.00 for a pre-64 Winchester that has had almost everything replaced except the action. I don't know how that makes it a collectors item? Most collectors that pay big bucks for guns want them to to be completely original. The description says it MAY be a replacement barrel. That is easy enough to tell, either it has all the factory roll marks or it doesn't. The stock wood is also pretty plain without much figure. Nothing wrong with that, plain wood stocks are often more stable, but it doesn't add to the value. Seems like a lot puffery on the description.

[Just Duke]

For more info.

[x101airborne]

We bought 3 pre-64 Winchester PALMA rifles not too long ago. I think we gave 600 a piece and they had the original sights on them fronts and rears. Stainless barrels, 1-12 twist, 308 chambering, super heavy stocks with some kind of aluminum rail in the fore end.
I currently have one out getting the barrel lightened. I am going to leave it the full 25 inches long, but fat girl gotta lose some weight. I hope it turns into a good shooting rifle. I wish I could afford a mannlicher style stock.

A rifle (even a pre-64) with everything replaced on it is not a collectors item. It is like having just the spare tire to a 57 Chevy.

[btroj]

If I was building a Palma rifle the concept of using a Winchester action would never enter my mind.

Old school Duke, way old school.

[Just Duke]

If I was building a Palma rifle the concept of using a Winchester action would never enter my mind.

Old school Duke, way old school.

OK, I just went back and re-read all my post and found nothing implying that I was building old school retro Palma rifles.
Did anyone else feel I was implying that? My writing is terrible is why I'm asking.

[x101airborne]

I just mainly wanted the actions and barrels. Mr. Gibson says he feels the palma twist is better for cast lead and I have the opportunity to get my hands on one to try. Lord knows that I do NOT need another 30 cal rifle, but I will invest in some first hand experience. I am ready to put it to use on some rooters and see what happens.

[Just Duke]

I just mainly wanted the actions and barrels. Mr. Gibson says he feels the palma twist is better for cast lead and I have the opportunity to get my hands on one to try. Lord knows that I do NOT need another 30 cal rifle, but I will invest in some first hand experience. I am ready to put it to use on some rooters and see what happens.

Now the rooter thing would definitely peak my interests. ;)
I'll scare up some old magazine adds.

[Just Duke]

Vintage 1956. A couple years older than I am.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/WINCHESTERSPECS.jpg~original (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/media/WINCHESTER%2070/WINCHESTERSPECS.jpg.html)

[Just Duke]

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/HPWINCHESTER.jpg~original (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/media/WINCHESTER%2070/HPWINCHESTER.jpg.html)

[Just Duke]

All the "National Match" models were made in .30-06. Later ones with
heavier barrels, including those made after 1964 with push-feed actions and
hammer forged barrels were plain "Match" models.

The "Bull Gun" was Winchester's first heavy barrel match rifle and first made
in the late 1940's (?). Chambered for the .300 H&H Mag, it was a popular
over-the-counter long range target rifle. One's shown below:

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/CSG4-Z-F2-L.jpg~original (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/media/WINCHESTER%2070/CSG4-Z-F2-L.jpg.html)



Winchester custom made a dozen or so round actions with the receivers not milled out for a magazine. Solid bottom and weighed over a pound more;
one of the stiffest bolt actions ever made. And fitted with a .308 Win. chambered Hart barrel. All under contract with the US Army Advanced Marksmanship Unit in 1959.
Interesting link to this rare thing from Winchester:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=fw1nw6zJSjAC&pg=PA311&lpg=PA311&dq=winchester+model+70+solid+bottom+receiver&source=bl&ots=TeAj_fxPzE&sig=RhFpgabCgSEzWFOaQabx8V_g7bc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jhScUfDAJI3BywHI74CoAw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=winchester%20model%2070%20solid%20bottom%20recei ver&f=false

[x101airborne]

Great reading. Thanks, Duke. I like seeing those old pics and articles.
When I get nostalgic, I will pull out my Elmer Keith articles from some of the old mags I have collected. I just like the old stuff.

[Just Duke]

Great reading. Thanks, Duke. I like seeing those old pics and articles.
When I get nostalgic, I will pull out my Elmer Keith articles from some of the old mags I have collected. I just like the old stuff.


:bigsmyl2:

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/MODEL52.jpg~original (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/media/WINCHESTER%2070/MODEL52.jpg.html)

[Just Duke]

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/WINADD.jpg~original (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/media/WINCHESTER%2070/WINADD.jpg.html)

[Just Duke]

Old man Unertl was always a pretty swell fella. After he passed the place fell into disrepair and his evil angry wife was running the show.
I tried to buy one of these from her and she cussed me out like a sailor on friday and hung up on me. http://www.patentbuddy.com/Patent/4247161 Per seeing one in person the workmanship left a lot to be desired.
Here's a pic of the old bat. HERE (http://mundabor.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/wicked-witch.jpg) Margret Hamilton could have taken evil lessons from here.
Eventually one of the employees purchased the company moved it here to Vegas and ran it into the ground. Dead link http://www.unertloptics.com/
The shop looked like Katrina had hit there. lol
This fella rebuilds them. http://unertl.alexweb.net/

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/WINCHESTER%2070/12220437_1.jpg~original (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/media/WINCHESTER%2070/12220437_1.jpg.html)

[x101airborne]

That last one looks like my 220 swift except mine has double set triggers.

[fouronesix]

Interesting thread and thanks for digging up all the old ads and catalog items Duke!
Post War US surely was a time for rifle shooters to come out of the woodwork and were supported and marketed to by Winchester. A time we'll never see again.

I've never had the opportunity to even consider one of the pre-64 Winchester 70 target models because they carry such a high collector $ premium.

The 300 HH has an interesting history. As to the OP about the 300 HH. Never owned one much less in a pre-64 70, however have had the opportunity to watch quite a few different original pre-64 sporter 70s being shot in various calibers. I will say in the category of the 30 cals with high horsepower, the 300 HH in the pre-64 is one that, for some reason or by pure coincidence, usually seems to shoot extremely well. Whether it's inherent with that cartridge and the way Winchester did that particular model in the 300 HH or, as I said, pure coincidence, I've never fully understood.

[Just Duke]

The company that made the tools that forged this country out of wilderness.

<sad face>


https://maps.google.com/maps?q=275+winchester+way+new+haven+connecticut&ll=41.322379,-72.927364&spn=0.002265,0.004128&hnear=275+Winchester+Ave,+New+Haven,+Connecticut+0 6511&gl=us&t=h&z=19


By Abbe Smith, Register Staff
asmith@newhavenregister.com


Click to enlarge
NEW HAVEN — The crumbling shell of the former Winchester Repeating Arms plant is in store for more than a facelift.

Developers envision a complete renovation of existing buildings with the addition of modern construction and a grand glass atrium to serve as an entrance. The idea is to transform the old arms manufacturer into office space for New Haven-based Higher One, a financial services company for colleges, and about 200 apartments.



On the morning after the Board of Aldermen gave the green light to the highly anticipated renovation of the old plant at 275 Winchester Ave., city officials, developers, aldermen and residents gathered inside the old plant and tried to imagine the future.

“I’m really excited about the vision and the possibilities for the space right here, and what it means for the community,” said Alderwoman Katrina Jones, D-21, adding: “This is awesome.”



http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/09/09/news/new_haven/doc4c8853d180668946397660.txt
By voting in favor of the proposal, aldermen agreed to amend the Science Park Planned Development District to allow for the renovation of two buildings at 275 Winchester Ave. and create up to 150,000 square feet of commercial space for Higher One.

Higher One is projected to hire hundreds of people as a result of the expansion, which would triple the size of the company.

Alderman Marcus Paca, D-24, praised the project and said it is a sign of the city’s resilience.

“It shows that New Haven is on the rebound. We are still building. We are still expanding,” he said.

The proposal was put forth by Winstanley Enterprises and includes partnering with Forest City Residential Group to bring 200 apartments to the historic former arms manufacturer. The total cost of the project is expected to top $40 million

[Just Duke]

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ct/ct0300/ct0399/data/ct0399data.pdf

[Larry Gibson]

Most all rifles mentioned in this thread were/are match/target M70s. A modern Palma rifle will have a custom single shot action with a 28 - 30+" barrel of light target contour and there is a weight restriction and iron sights only. There is currently no cartridge restriction but the bullet must be between 145 and 155 gr. Might be some other changes as I've not checked the rules lately. When .308W/7.62 NATO was the required cartridge barrels were 28-32", of light target contour and of 13 or 14" twist. The longer barrels gave higher velocity and the slower twist held the RPM down for best 800, 900 and1000 yard accuracy with M80 issue 7.62 NATO ammunition still required some years ago even after any rifle was authorized.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Duke, you asked where the Target/Palma version of the M70 went. They went away because people went with custom actions and Winchester wanted to stick with stuff they could sell more of.

Target shooters generally don't care about collectibility or tradition. Only one thing counts- putting holes where they belong. Custom actions do that more reliably.

[Just Duke]

So back to Winchesters from yesteryear.......

[Just Duke]

What the the muzzle end of a 28 inch barrel 300 H&H measure then?
What rate of twist just for curiosity sake would one go with for 200 grainers?

[Just Duke]

What the the muzzle end of a 28 inch barrel 300 H&H measure then?
What rate of twist just for curiosity sake would one go with for 200 grainers?

[Just Duke]

What diameter would the the muzzle end of a 28 inch barrel in 300 H&H measure then on the Winchester rifles?
What rate of twist just for curiosity sake would one go with for 200 grainers?

[Just Duke]

One more time for the guy that requested this post.

[rufgr]

Duke: The muzzle of my pre 64 model 70 300 H&H Bull Gun measures .857. Mine shoots best with 180 grain bullets and max. loads of IMR 4350. Oddly the best group I ever shot with this rifle was with Sierra 180grain round nose bullets.

[M-Tecs]

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf

3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle—
(a) A rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.
(b)
Any service rifle with metallic sites chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case


http://www.6mmbr.com/palmabasics.html

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/12/palma-shooting-what-calibers-are-permitted/

[pmer]

Duke, you asked where the Target/Palma version of the M70 went. They went away because people went with custom actions and Winchester wanted to stick with stuff they could sell more of.

Target shooters generally don't care about collectibility or tradition. Only one thing counts- putting holes where they belong. Custom actions do that more reliably.

When I was shooting High Power I had 2 push feed Winchester model 70s. They both had worked over stock triggers trued actions and custom chambers. One was over the course and the other was a F class. Accuracy was not an issue for either rifle.

So if I stop by a local match now days there will be more custom made actions than Winchester and Remingtons?

[Just Duke]

Duke: The muzzle of my pre 64 model 70 300 H&H Bull Gun measures .857. Mine shoots best with 180 grain bullets and max. loads of IMR 4350. Oddly the best group I ever shot with this rifle was with Sierra 180grain round nose bullets.

Thank you sir. That satisfies my curiously.

[rbuck351]

My 1952 made Win M70 in 300H&H is still putting meat in the freezer but it's just a std version not a NM gun.

[Larry Gibson]

We shouldn't confuse NRA match rifles with Palma match rifles. While the former are many times used in Palma matches the Palma rifle is distinctly different. Made to shoot the 800, 900 and 1000 yards of the Palma Match with issue 7.62 NATO ammunition the Palma rifle has a 27 to 30"+ barrel contoured to keep the rifle within weight. The barrel is longer to increase velocity so the 145 - 155 gr bullets stay sonic at 1000 yards. The barrel twists are 13 or 14" to keep the RPM lower for better accuracy with the issue ball bullets. Match aperture front and rear sights are used. Stocks are for prone unsupported with sling position.

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

Larry

Palma rules get more confusing since the US Palma and the International Palma rules are different.

US Palma rules allow any weight bullets, NRA Match and Service Rifles with no weight restrictions.

International rules require a rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO cartridge case with a minimum trigger weight of 1.5 kilograms (approximately 3 pounds, 5 ounces) and a total weight of the rifle including sights and forehand stop not to exceed 6.5 kilograms (approximately 14 pounds, 5 ounces) using 156 grain max bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

I understand the rules. The Palma Match is an international match and at least the International rules have adhered to the ammunition requirement. The U.S. and NRA rules are nothing more than allowing NRA match rifles to compete on the Palma course of fire, including the bastardized "mini" Palma matches shot at 300, 500 and 600 yards. The U.S. and NRA matches are nothing more than belly matches shooting 15 shot strings instead of 20. A true Palma bolt action 7.62 NATO match rifle is a different animal than a NRA Match rifle. Were it up to me I would have the Palm Matches go back to their roots when they were reinstated in the 1950s and require 7.62 NATO service rifles (of any NATO country circa 1956 through 1968 or so) with little to no modification external or internal. Ammunition should remain 7.62 NATO ball equivalent with a 145 - 155 gr FMJ. Let the gamesmen stay with NRA matches and F class matches and let Service rifle shooters compete with real service rifles in a match designed for them with marksmanship meaning more than the equipment. Remember originally the host nation provided the service rifles and the ammunition. That would be real Palma Matches. However, since that won't happen let us at least understand the difference between a real Palma bolt action rifle and a U.S. NRA match rifle.

Larry Gibson

[M-Tecs]

Some interesting history on the Palma matches

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/08/history-history-of-palma-match.html

History of the Winchester Palma rifles.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/02/history-winchester-palma-rifles.html

History: US National Match Ammunition

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/history-us-national-match-ammunition.html

[Larry Gibson]

It was here that the Palma bolt action rifle developed with the longer 27 - 30" contoured barrel to stay within weight limitations and to increase velocity. The twist was slowed down to keep the RPM as low as possible so the imperfectly balanced military ball bullets would have less deviation in cone of fire (group size). This is what is generally considered to be a "Palma Match" bolt action rifle. A NRA Match rifle with a 26" barrel and 12" twist is not competitive. Besides most NRA Match rifles have triggers lighter than 3 lbs and are most often heavier that 12 lbs. Thus let's not confuse an NRA Match bolt action rifle with a "Palma Match" bolt action rifle.

Were it up to me, like I said earlier, I would have it be an as issued service bolt rifle with comparable "issue" ball ammunition for the same from any country.

In 1985 the match rules required that each shooter be responsible for providing a rifle meeting the requirement of the target rifle as laid down by the host country. The rules of the National Rifle Association of Great Britain were generous and allowed for a bolt action rifle weighing as much as 12 pounds with a trigger pull slightly over three pounds. The rifle had to be chambered for the 7.62mm NATO round, our .308 Winchester cartridge. The match officials control this by allowing only ammunition issued on the line to be used in matches. The standard British service rifle ammunition at that time was L2A2 Military Ball. It is a cartridge that is similar to the United States issue M80 Ball and, like its American counterpart, not designed for target or long range use. All shooters are issued ammunition from the same lot to insure that conditions are as uniform as possible.

However, as to the original thread question; the 300 H&H was and is a fine cartridge but it has been supplanted for hunting by the "modern" .30 cal magnums. Most notably the .300 Winchester Magnum which also has supplanted the .300 H&H on the long range target field.

Larry Gibson

[woodbutcher]

:smile: Great thread.Love the linked articles.Thanks to all who contributed.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[pls1911]

Value is in the heart of the collector.
How much does a new custom rifle of the equivalent quality cost?
I'd think a bit more than $2500.
I admit new technology far exceeds the old line machinist's eye, but a whisper of wind or an experienced eye can close the gap.
An old school curmudgeon myself, I'd prefer the challenge, and honor the pedigree.

[Kirk A]

Thanks for posting the vintage advertising. I found this thread looking around for Bull content; I just acquired a 1955 Bull gun (re-chambered from .300H&H to .300Win). The collectors weren't keen on it, but it was just the recipe that I was seeking for some 1000yd shooting. As a life-long .270Win devotee, I will need to test some loads in this new caliber. (Suggestions are welcome.) My priorities include verifying the headspace, mounting some optics, and installing a target buttplate that offers increased LOP. All in all, I am delighted with this Bull gun. It is my first Marksman-stocked model, but certainly not the last.

-Kirk

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bjH1M2X9O3c/VE195iZYyyI/AAAAAAAAGKg/EXZFxum9thU/w1378-h776-no/IMG_20141026_190359703.jpg

[Mack Heath]

If you guys are interested in more of the Palma lore, do a search through the rec.guns archives on the name Bart Bobbitt. Bart was a member of the US Palma several times. He provided those guys on rec.guns with a wealth of info. He explained to everyone why the Winchesters were still the action of choice during the 1990. He is also a member on one of the firearm forums right now, but which one escapes me.

If you have ever seen the NRA pamphlet on the M1 Garand, the fellow on the cover at the national matches was Bobbitt.

MH

[greywolf444]

I had a 300 h&h in the '70's. Accurate as all get out. Thought I would rule the bottom field. Way to much for deer. Ruined the front half of every deer. Seemed to kick way too much for someone used to a .243. Probably should have kept it.

[Just Duke]

Thanks for posting the vintage advertising. I found this thread looking around for Bull content; I just acquired a 1955 Bull gun (re-chambered from .300H&H to .300Win). The collectors weren't keen on it, but it was just the recipe that I was seeking for some 1000yd shooting. As a life-long .270Win devotee, I will need to test some loads in this new caliber. (Suggestions are welcome.) My priorities include verifying the headspace, mounting some optics, and installing a target buttplate that offers increased LOP. All in all, I am delighted with this Bull gun. It is my first Marksman-stocked model, but certainly not the last.

-Kirk

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bjH1M2X9O3c/VE195iZYyyI/AAAAAAAAGKg/EXZFxum9thU/w1378-h776-no/IMG_20141026_190359703.jpg



Yep it's fun to dream. Dreaming is free all week. BTW :) Thanks for sharing.

[oldblinddog]

Interesting discussion of Highpower shooting.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/11/cartridges-logical-30-06.html (http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/11/cartridges-logical-30-06.html)

[sw282]

l remember with great disgust the destruction of fine target rifles by the Army while working at Training Aids at Fort Gordon,Ga during the 1970s. Army would bring in these Win Mod 70 and 52 Target Rifles and have the guys in the machine shop cut them up on the band saw. As they say, lock-stock- and barrel...Always a cut thru the action, then barrel, stock, and all. Utterly detstroying fine shootable guns. l saw them cut up Colt 1911s, Garands, Thompsons, Remington 22 target bolt guns too. What a waste

[30calflash]

I'm not sure but several years ago the host country of the Palma match would supply the ammunition and in many cases the rifle to be used by everyone in the match. One year the US Palma match was held around the time if the Nationals at Camp Perry. All shooters used NM M14's IIRC.

One shooter who attended the match in England was able to acquire one of the rifles, an Envoy match rifle based on a Lee Enfield, single shot conversion.

[M-Tecs]

Palma history http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/10/history-history-of-palma-match-2011.html