.45 Colt H&R Whispers

[Good Cheer]

I've set about to create a quiet load for the H&R. Currently test firing the LBT .458-260 WFN GC sized to .454" and seated out to be cammed into the rifling on closing of the action. Weighs in at 263 grains. With 2.5 grains of Unique you can hear it cut the cardboard at thirty paces. Working my way lower into pellet rifle territory.

Any yall been working with the H&R's to develop accurate low noise loads?

[Hammerhead]

I've been trying, but not succeeding. Haven't tried seating the bullets into the rifling.
I've been using some left over .45 auto 200 grain LWSC over Clays, but I'm getting wild velocities swings and poor accuracy with the lighter charges.

[Good Cheer]

Getting lots of case blow by? Yesterday saw it start below 2.5 Unique. Occurred to me that annealing one case until it's dang near limp might be worth it to see if the blow by goes away. Might get around to that today.

As an add on to the experiments with this rifle, getting a bore diameter 0.444" or 0.445" sizer. That way it should be possible to size the front of a long soft boolit and cam the base into the rifling ahead of a case full of black. Is this just too much fun or what!

[rexherring]

I've done that with my 7 1/2 inch Blackhawk. I had to cast almost pure lead (30/1)and lube just the bottom groove with softer lube to get them to seal with those light loads. Also used thinner cases like the RP ones and not the Starline or Federal cases.

[Hammerhead]

Getting some blow by.
I figured light bullets would stabilize better, but if you're getting good accuracy with a 263, I might try something heavier. That should help burn up the fuel.

I bought some round balls, I need to get around to trying those.

[ASSASSIN]

The H&R in 300 Whisper / BLACKOUT with a 220 gr. Sierra Match King and 9.2 gr. of Unique, you can clap your hands louder than what this is and it's running sub-sonic at 1,040 fps....

A

[Good Cheer]

More on the 2.5 grains of Unique.
Continued shooting indicates that it produces two groups at 50 yards. Didn't try elevating the muzzle or stuffing any fluff over the charge but I'm pretty sure it's inconsistent ignition related.

[Hammerhead]

Yeah, if I tipped the gun back before each shot accuracy was improved and no blow by.
Thinking about trying Titegroup, not a big fan of it, but it has proven it's worth in big, nearly empty cases.

[geargnasher]

Try this: 300+ grain PLAIN BASE, pure lead boolit, size to .002" larger than bore diameter (not groove), paper-patch with two wraps of wet notebook paper, fold base, lightly lube the dry patch with straight Vaseline, seat in a FIRED, unsized case, no crimp, use Red Dot powder starting with book minimums for the heaviest boolits you can find (around 270 grains is what I came up with for RD powder), use about 3/4-grain of Dacron to loosely fill the space between boolit and powder. You want the patch to touch the rifling and finish seating the boolit when you close the action. Work the powder charge down until you're happy with it. I've gotten them to the "POP......Thud" level at 25 yards, I can watch the boolit all the way to the target even at that range.

The heavy boolit and unsized, uncrimped case together with the Dacron and slight engraving pressure seal the chamber and help the powder get a good initial burn. The soft lead and lubricated patch make for easy engraving and very low barrel friction, not to mention keep obturation happening at the super-low pressure and minimize risk of stuck boolits. The fast powder keeps muzzle pressure low and the burn clean. I never made it work well without the paper patch since my NEF's chamber is so huge; I had to size the case too much just to hold the boolit. With the patch I can seat a .456" patched boolit in the fired case with thumb pressure (enough to hold it firmly) and still fire it through the .4525" groove without any fuss with boolit damage or overpressure conditions. The shallow lands help, too. Try it, you'll like it.

Gear

[DanWalker]

Try a pure lead roundball seated over a couple grains of Red Dot. I screw the seater die all the way in so that the RB is seated deeply in the case. I tumble lube the RB's in Johnsons paste wax or Liquid Alox.
Works great and sounds like a 22 from my ruger blackhawk.

[rexherring]

Try a pure lead roundball seated over a couple grains of Red Dot. I screw the seater die all the way in so that the RB is seated deeply in the case. I tumble lube the RB's in Johnsons paste wax or Liquid Alox.
Works great and sounds like a 22 from my ruger blackhawk.

I never thought of seating the ball further in the case. I just shot some .454 RB's in my BH with 2.5 grs of W-231 LLAX and a tuft of dacron. Fun to shoot and surprisingly accurate out to 15 yds.

[Lonegun1894]

I appreciate this info, as I'm trying to do the same thing with an H&R .44 mag. Thank you all, and keep the info coming.

[DanWalker]

I never thought of seating the ball further in the case. I just shot some .454 RB's in my BH with 2.5 grs of W-231 LLAX and a tuft of dacron. Fun to shoot and surprisingly accurate out to 15 yds.

Heck, we shoot bunnies and blue grouse with this load. It's even accounted for numerous prairie dogs!

[jkpq45]

My lightest loads for .45LC involved a soft 200gr LSWC over about 3.5 grains Clays (perhaps roughly equivalent to Unique in burn rate, but a bit cleaner I believe).

I had consistent ignition as it's more of a powdery powder vs. little extruded disks, but had serious case blow-by and didn't believe it was safe in my dad's revolver. Plus, we were shooting into a railroad tie backstop and the damn projectiles were bouncing off rather than "sticking"!

Not the safest feeling at ten yards when you fire, hear the projectile "bounce," then land at your feet in ready-to-fire-again condition.... Needless to say, I bumped up the charge and didn't look back. I'd probably have better results with this load in your longer barrel, though!

[Catshooter]

jkpq45,

Universal Clays is very close to Unique in burning charctaristics.

Clays is very similar to Bullseye.

Welcome to the site by the way.


Cat

[geargnasher]

jkpq45,

Universal Clays is very close to Unique in burning charctaristics.

Clays is very similar to Bullseye.

Welcome to the site by the way.


Cat

That jumped out at me too! I'm amazed at how often that gets confused or simply mis-typed. I hope nobody ever gets blown up by subbing Clays for Universal.

Gear

[Catshooter]

That jumped out at me too! I'm amazed at how often that gets confused or simply mis-typed. I hope nobody ever gets blown up by subbing Clays for Universal.

Gear

I've done it. I grabbed a can of Clays that in my tiny little mind was Universal. Glock 21 in 45 with the starting load.

Blew the brass out at the feed ramp and ruined what at the time was a $150 pistol mag. First round fired too.

I've read on the net of others doing the same sort of thing.


Cat

[leftiye]

Try turning a case out of brass (I guess steel might work even better), outside std to fit your chamber with maybe .002 inch relief, primer pocket with 1/16" flash hole bored all the way through the "case", front of case bored out to hold boolit, and a 1/4 inch chamber beneath the boolit to hold about 2 grains of bullseye. 45-70 done like this sounds like a 22 cb cap first try.

[TXGunNut]

That jumped out at me too! I'm amazed at how often that gets confused or simply mis-typed. I hope nobody ever gets blown up by subbing Clays for Universal.

Gear


I wish they'd left the "Clays" out of "Universal Clays". Hodgdon has a great powder there but I hesitate to post about it.

[fcvan]

I never seated the round ball deeply in the case, just crimped at the circumference. Out of the classic carbine they sounded like .22lr but were chronographed at 900fps. Good fun. Frank

[Catshooter]

900 fps. Good fun. Frank

And quite deadly, too.


Cat

[BAGTIC]

I have used same technique as Dan Walker with the RB in my H&R rifles for over 35 years. I use a dowel to seat the ball directly on top the Red Dot for a compressed load. The faster powder and the 100% load density guarantee uniform ignition. The H&R rifles are plenty strong to handle to handle the possible peak pressure increase and the case seals well... no smoked cases.

[Outpost75]

My low noise load for my H&R CR45LC uses the 260-grain Saeco #955 Cowboy bullet unsized at .455", lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox, cast of 1:30 tin-lead, and 5 grains of Bullseye in. 45 Colt brass, with NO filler, WLP primer, and roll crimped at 1.59" OAL.

Velocity is 878 fps, with an Sd of 32 fps over a 10-shot series, and average of five consecutive 5-shot groups fired off sandbags at 50 yards was 2.73". Same load give 685 fps from my Colt New Service with5-1/2" barrel.

[HotGuns]

I've had great luck using TrailBoss for heavy bullets with light loads. Its very bulky and burns well due to the case volume. Powder position is a thing of the past with TrailBoss.

[Four-Sixty]

The chamber on my.357 Handi is so generous that you can drop a boolit in a fired case. Paper patching is a neat idea.

[45 Bravo]

how about this, load your charge, and then ad kapok filling over the powder charge to keep it in place on the primer, then seat your projectile.

You will want to fill the case completely with the kapok as that seems to work best.


It is a natural fiber, and has been used in cartridge loadings before.

It works best in straight walled cases.

Here is a link talking about it .
45 Bravo
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Kapok.pdf

[Good Cheer]

Sized up some 452400. Nice design. Will see how it does.

[longbow]

I have been wanting to do much the same but with .44 mag. only using a really heavy boolit in true Whisper style.

The boolit I like is this one:

80717

designed by Dr. Richard Gunn. I modeled it in 3D then scaled to .432" for .44. It weighs about 400 grs. in wheelweights.

I am thinking this drawing is wrongly stating "... for .45 Colt..." since it is 0.458" so must be for .45-70 but certainly sized down or from a mould made by a custom mould maker it would be nice in a .45 Colt. The crimp groove might have to be relocated and maybe throat lengthened.

While trajectory would be pretty high I am betting this would pack a punch a pretty long range sort of like the old BP mid size cartridges.

Unfortunately my toy money is rather limited currently so no .44 Whisper for me for a while!

I am living vicariously through you guys for now so someone build one of these! Post photos of gun and targets!

Longbow

[bigted]

wowwwww. you fellers always do stuff that is an everlasting subject matter that ensures that ill never get bored with the "same ol same ol".

unique in very small grainage behind a 400 grain .452 or .454 boolit has some merit for trying. think I should give these a try to see what is possible in my vaquero revolver as my grandbaby got my 45 colt rifle for a b-day present.

cool beans and ill try to report my findings here.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Try this: 300+ grain PLAIN BASE, pure lead boolit, size to .002" larger than bore diameter (not groove), paper-patch with two wraps of wet notebook paper, fold base, lightly lube the dry patch with straight Vaseline, seat in a FIRED, unsized case, no crimp, use Red Dot powder starting with book minimums for the heaviest boolits you can find (around 270 grains is what I came up with for RD powder), use about 3/4-grain of Dacron to loosely fill the space between boolit and powder. You want the patch to touch the rifling and finish seating the boolit when you close the action. Work the powder charge down until you're happy with it. I've gotten them to the "POP......Thud" level at 25 yards, I can watch the boolit all the way to the target even at that range.

The heavy boolit and unsized, uncrimped case together with the Dacron and slight engraving pressure seal the chamber and help the powder get a good initial burn. The soft lead and lubricated patch make for easy engraving and very low barrel friction, not to mention keep obturation happening at the super-low pressure and minimize risk of stuck boolits. The fast powder keeps muzzle pressure low and the burn clean. I never made it work well without the paper patch since my NEF's chamber is so huge; I had to size the case too much just to hold the boolit. With the patch I can seat a .456" patched boolit in the fired case with thumb pressure (enough to hold it firmly) and still fire it through the .4525" groove without any fuss with boolit damage or overpressure conditions. The shallow lands help, too. Try it, you'll like it.

Gear

Gear is correct.

BvT

[Hammerhead]

Success!
Hornady .454" round ball coated with LLA over 3.0 Trail Boss. Ball seated deep in an un-sized case, the end of the ball even with the case mouth.
Accurate out to 50 yards in my H&R carbine and very quiet.
I never thought round balls would shoot so well.

[bigted]

my first trial was 2 grain unique under a paperpatched 380 grain boolit I use in my 43 Spanish ... no joy yet. my revolver hates them but the noise is 22 like and so im thinking im on the rite track. gonna have to get a nice 45 Colt rifle tho. this is too fun.

[BAGTIC]

I have been seating round balls over Red Dot for more than 30 years. Works great. I seat ball directly on top of powder to give a slightly compressed load (100% charge density). No filler and no need to guess which end of case powder is in.

[Hammerhead]

BAGTIC, are you seating them on the powder by feel (pressure) or by calculating how much room the powder takes and seating the ball to a certain depth?
I was thinking of trying your method with 3 gr. Trail Boss, but I don't want to compress it.
Or would I be better off with Clays?

[DanWalker]

I just screw the bullet seater stem in my LEE die all the way down. RB doesn't bottom out in the case, and this is a consistent, repeatable setting.

[BAGTIC]

I load with a loading block. I charge 50 cases drop a ball into each and use a dowel to push the down by feel. With these light charges it would be difficult to over compress as the ball would hit the bottom of the case. My favorite RB cartridge is the .357 Magnum. I would like to have a .38 S&W if I could find a way within my budget now.

[goofyoldfart]

Bagtic would you so kind as to share some specifics on your .357 mags and 38 loads. sounds very interesting. It is also one of my available calibers to play with, both in pistol and rifle. this sounds very interesting and a lot of fun--------and on the cheeeep! God Bless to all and theirs.

Goofyoldfart

[Hammerhead]

I would like that too. I have a 22" 357 Handi that needs a good gallery load.

[longbow]

Lonegun1894:

I have been planning to do the same thing but with the intent of using a truly heavy boolit for .44 mag. I took a Dr. Richard Gunn designed boolit for .45 Colt and scaled it to 0.434". The weight is just over 400 grs.

A picture of the .45 cal. original is attached.

I was planning to have Accurate Molds make me a .44 version but have not gotten to it yet. I have the drawing if you are interested. I am pretty sure it would require relocation of the crimp groove and possibly a longer than normal throat. Both easy enough to do. Haven't checked those details yet.

Hopefully I will get to it one day.

Longbow

[Artful]

You know that boolit would go well in the 450 bushmaster AR's

[longbow]

Hah! I should read back a bit before i post the same old stuff! I must have a short memory. I thought this was a new post about the same idea. Oh well.

The marketing guys say you have to repeat the same thing 5 times if you want someone to really understand what you are saying. That means I get three more tries!

Longbow