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Trapshooter
04-15-2007, 01:28 PM
I don't know if this fits better here or in the gunsmithing section, but here goes. This weekend I picked up a pretty nice 69/71 Swiss Vetterli at the MVGCA show. The bore is in great shape except for about three eights or half an inch in from the muzzle. Apparently, the original owner greased it up for storage per the manual of arms, but over time, the grease at the muzzle migrated down the barrel, and left the end exposed. There is a pretty good layer of rust there. As usual with these guns, everything matches, but there is some surface rust on the outside, so it is not an extremely valuable antique. I plan to make the center fire conversion, and hope to be able to shoot the thing.

I ordered a set of the Lee dies, and some 348 brass from Graffs, and I have a bunch of 300 grain 44 TC bullets, so the rush is on to get the muzzle problem resolved.

I have soaked it pretty thoroughly with Kroil, and plan to work it over with brass brushes. If that doesn't get rid of the worst of it, are there some other tricks, short of whacking off the end and re-crowning.


Trapshooter

kywoodwrkr
04-15-2007, 06:04 PM
Google for rust removal via electrolysis.
Describes process using a battery charger and solution of water and sodium carbonate.
PH Plus at pool supply shop is sodium carbonate
DaveP kywoodwrkr

Trapshooter
04-15-2007, 09:58 PM
Thanks, I will give that a shot. It should use a lot less elbow grease! I Thought about using something like the home made Foul Out, but didn't think through how to plug the barrel at the muzzle. The rest of the bore shines and I didn't want to take a chance with the Foul Out and the old steel.

Trapshooter

Oldeyes
04-15-2007, 11:24 PM
I've had good luck with the soak and scrub routine....if you are lucky the rust may not be as bad as it looks. I'm not knocking kywoodworker's suggestion, but I would expect the electrolysis to clean out the rust and leave shiny holes behind. OK, scrubbing scrapes off surface rust and leaves dark holes behind; is there any difference down range? I just got a '69 Vetty with a less than perfect bore that responded well to Hoppe's and a 45 brush, still looks a tad nasty at the muzzle but shoots acceptably with RCBS 430-300 GC's over 21 grains of 5744. If you have a real nasty rust ring the best option may be counter-boring your barrel.
Be prepared for a 100 yard point of impact at least a foot higher than POA :)
I'm curious as to your groove diameter, my '69 is .435 but my 1881 is a snug .427 and is a tack driver!

Gussy
04-16-2007, 11:34 AM
I took a muzzle loader to a good machinist and had him cut the rifling out back past the rust. It turned out about like the quick load they now make. It was one of the most accurate muzzle loaders I've ever had. Didn't change the looks any.

I bought that gun real cheap from a guy who left it in his mountain cabin and, as luck would have it, right under a roof leak over winter.
Gus

Oldeyes
04-16-2007, 12:29 PM
Just thought I'd also mention that sending about 50 gas checks zinging over the crusties blasts 'em loose too! I really did not waste too much time scrubbing before I took the rifle to the range and shot the remaining rust out of it :)

Trapshooter
04-16-2007, 12:49 PM
I think I will stick with the short time soak and scrub, followed by supersonic gaschecks! If that doesn't get it, some more soak and scrub, and if that still doesn't work, I will try electrolysis. If that doesn't work, counterboring the muzzle should get the equivalent of a sharp crowned muzzle without changing the look of the rifle.

I have a couple other old mil-surps that shoot a foot or two high with issue sights, so I know that drill. One target a foot or so above to catch the bullets, one below for the aim point.

Thanks again with the suggestions on the rust. It helps to talk with someone who has "done it before"!

I will check the bore dimensions this evening or tomorrow depending on how deep the honey do is tonight, and get back to you.

Trapshooter

Trapshooter
04-16-2007, 08:46 PM
Oldeyes,

I drove a slug in from the breech, and measured .410 bore, and .423 groove. This is a Rychner & Keller, SN 86xx, which looks like 1871 production based on the data on the Swiss Rifles web site. Still working with Kroil & a brush, alternating with a little JB Bore Paste on a patch.

Trapshooter

P Patcher
04-19-2007, 05:14 PM
Trapshooter,
You have a PM

Oldeyes
04-19-2007, 05:38 PM
Thanks for the info, Trapshooter. That is a mighty tight groove dimension, close to my Italian Vetty of .424. I did not know any Swiss were that small....
Interesting maker also!
Do not expect the JB patch to ever be clean since these barrels seem to be pretty soft and will darken your patches with iron.

Trapshooter
04-19-2007, 07:28 PM
Oldeyes, I was hoping the the JB would move the rust a little faster, but it wasn't much help. It did come out black, from the steel. I proved rust is harder that JB.

P Patcher, thanks for the offer and encouragement.

Today was Vetterli project day Mostly good progress. The brass & dies didn't come yesterday, so I decided to start on the rimfire to centerfire conversion. I started with the firing pin. I turned down a stainless M2 screw (drill press and file). The first one was a bit egg shaped, so I turned another. Much better. Next was drilling the bolt. Fortunately, that went right the first time!

Next was a firing pin carrier. I saw a web page which suggested using a piece of a wire tie. I fooled with that for half an hour or so, and couldn't make it work, so I went looking for something to make a carrier from. I found a chunk of delrin, so I sawed off a piece, and filed out an excellent replica of the Swiss part. I drilled the hole through the front for the firing pin. and flipped it over in the vice to drill the hole for the striker, and the head of the firing pin. I started drilling the last hole, and suddenly there were 3 pieces of delrin laying on the vice. Bad Words!

While I was standing there trying to decide what to do next, the door bell rang. The Fed Ex guy delivered 348 Win brass and dies! I turned off the light on the drill, and went over to the loading bench. I cut down a handful of shells, and ran them throught the sizer. No problems, back on the upswing!

I went on a serious scrounge looking for a chunk of metal. The best thing I found in the dungeon was a hardware store L bracket that was about .015 or .020 too thin. Grab the hacksaw and files and have at it again. Once that works, I will do the chamber cast, neck ream some brass if required, and load up a few to try!


With a little luck, Vetterli and I could be at the range tomorrow.

Trapshooter

twotoescharlie
04-20-2007, 08:49 AM
the wire tie worked well for myself, abour a 10 minute job.


TTC

Trapshooter
04-20-2007, 12:03 PM
Charlie,

What did you do to keep the tie from straightening back out? I tried bending it a few times, then cutting V grooves on the inside of the bends, and each time, the plastic just straightened back out, and jambed up when I cycled the bolt. Did you heat it or something to set the bends?

Thanks

Dave

twotoescharlie
04-20-2007, 12:47 PM
heat with hair dryer,heat gun,propane torch, it will hold its shape when cooled.


TTC

klw
04-20-2007, 03:51 PM
Bought a set of CH dies from Buffalo ARms. Wanted to use regular 44 magnum bullets. The dies wouldn't work. Buffalo Arms suggesting calling CH. CH said that the vast majority of their dies are sold oversees where people want to use paper patched bullets. For here, however, they could make a set of dies that would work with regular 44 magnum bullets. I sent them the die set I bought and, eventually, they sent me back a die set for use with 44 magnum bullets. Took them a while but they did it for no extra charge.

If I were going to buy another die set I'd call CH first.

Trapshooter
04-20-2007, 06:52 PM
Well, I got it all together and got out to the range today. The load was the 300 grain .430" TC bullet with 20 grains AA-5477. I seated the bullet with the Lee 41 Swiss die, and crimped it with a 44 magnum factory crimp die.

The first ten shot 50 yard group was 2"high and about 4" wide. 6 shots were in a 2 x 2 space. The center of the group was very close to 12" above the point of aim, a couple inches right of center. Now it is time to get serious about load development. Boy are the sights tiny. It was fairly bright today, if it would have been darker, I imagine the group would have been much larger.


Trapshooter

twotoescharlie
04-20-2007, 07:11 PM
try 20 grains of 4759, shoots much cleaner than 5744

TTC

Trapshooter
04-20-2007, 09:58 PM
Thanks again Charlie,

I will get a can of 4759 and try it. I thought I had some, but it was 4756. I had the 5744 left from an earlier 45-70 project, and thought I would try it. Has anyone else tried 4198, or is that too slow?

Trapshooter