Bluing salts question

[glenn742]

I am in the process of making a batch of bluing salt from ammonium nitrate fertilizer but because of the new regulation on ammonium nitrate I can only get 27% with calcium added instead of the 33%. Has anyone tried the 27% and will the calcium make any difference to the final result?

Thanks
Glenn

[waksupi]

Glenn, the calcium may cause some spotting in the blue. I would try a small test piece before committing a rifle.

[Molly]

I am in the process of making a batch of bluing salt from ammonium nitrate fertilizer but because of the new regulation on ammonium nitrate I can only get 27% with calcium added instead of the 33%. Has anyone tried the 27% and will the calcium make any difference to the final result?

Thanks
Glenn

Ahhh, I suggest that you reconsider. I made up a batch of bluing salts in my basement once using ammonium nitrate fertilizer. ONCE!! Under blueing conditions it releases HUGE volumes of ammonia vapors. And it does so for quite a long period of time. You will be very lucky not to have to put the family in a motel for a night or two while the fumes abate.

[Mooseman]

With the change in Ammonium Nitrate , It might be best to order Bluing salts from Brownells.
I have had no luck finding AN up here without all kinds of red flags going up when I ask and I only want 5 gallons of it. Lye is getting hard to get too now...
I am going to start doing Rust Blue , and Nitre blue now.

Rich

[Jeff Michel]

I may suggest that if you go the ammonia nitrate route, Molly is correct, do it outside. Ammonia fumes can overwhelm you in a hurry. If you only have a gun or two you might consider a hot water or express blue is the way to go, way easier than rust bluing and you can do double barrels. Caustic bluing isn't complicated, but it can get expensive if you only have a few to do. Biggest things to keep an eye on is the temperature of the bath and your in going water quality. Brownells will send you their bluing instructions if you ask, they might be available through their web sight. Lots of real good suggestions.

[glenn742]

I tried Brownells and the shipping alone would be 350.00. I can get 60lbs of lye and 40lbs of 27% ammonia nitrate fertilizer for around 75.00 which I feel should last for a very long time. I guess with all the other chemicals in the fertilizer the calcium that they added to the 27% ammonia nitrate fertilizer should not cause too much of a problem. Have anyone tried nitrate of soda and do you use the same amount as ammonia nitrate?

[Lee]

Ummmm, can't you get pure ammonium nitrate at fireworks companies?? Skylighter comes to mind. There are others out there as well. Most of their red flags go up only when you try to construct flash powder, which does not use ammonium nitrate. Also, most/all?? the "shoot-n-boom" targets out there are pure(?) ammonium nitrate, with a small package of added "catalyst"???
Sorry if I'm on the wrong page ...... Lee
P.S. You're not from one of those countries like Illinois/California/NewYork that try to outlaw everything, by chance????
Not being a wise-a** just sayin.....

[Milsurp Junkie]

You can also get it from those single use cold packs, if you only need a few hundred grams or so.

[deltaenterprizes]

Substitute potassium nitrate, sold at Lowes as stump remover for aprox $5/lb

[oldred]

After several attempts at hot bluing I got decent results except for 4140 alloy parts, at a friends suggestion I did the next couple of jobs with a rust blue solution (in this case Laurel Mountain but there are several available) and I will never hot blue again! The results were MUCH better and it was not nearly the hassle and expense nor was it nearly as hazardous. Rust blue provides a better looking and even more durable finish than hot bluing.

[Tokarev]

Or one can convert mix of calcium and ammonium nitrates to sodium nitrate by mixing solution with baking soda (outside - you don't want to smell ammonia in your basement) and boiling till no longer precipitates chalk and emits ammonia.

The solution you get is sodium nitrate. Let chalk precipitate and pour clear solution into another vessel.
Evaporate 1/10th of that, then melt nitrate crystals and mix/stir with molten lead. That will produce lead oxide and sodium nitrite. Dissolve in water, filter or wait till lead oxide precipitates and pour solution back into the solution of sodium nitrate. You're all set for bluing. Add potash to taste.

[2152hq]

If you're only doing a few pieces, then I'd also suggest a rust blue.

Either 'Express' (Hot) rust blue,,or 'Cold' rust blue.
They both only require boiling water. The difference being that Express blueing is done from start to finish in one session. The bluing soln is different from the Cold Rust soln as it is applied to the hot metal parts and rusts immedietly.
Cold Rust bluing is a much slower process as the parts are left to rust naturally each coat. Though it can be accelerated artificially with the use of a cabinet w/ humidity & temp controls.


I do mostly cold rust blue now, but still some Express Rust on some smaller parts.

Laurel Mountain Forge for Cold Rust Blue solution.
Mark Lee Express Blue soln for it's namesake.

If you're bluing parts of 4140 and similar alloys, use the cold rust method.
Express blue will do a great job on all the softer alloy steel of the older guns.

Stay away from the older 'classic' rust blue formulas as most all have mercury compounds in them. They work great because of it,,but you may pay a price for it.
It's nasty stuff and can wreck your health. I can personally attest to that.

These 2 commercially available solutions are so simple to use, there's no reason to go and develope and mix your own as it once was.
There are other commercially available solutions. I've settled on these two after trying just about everything out there.
'Whatever works for you is the best one to use' is the answer to the question of which one is best.

When you're done bluing, you have nothing but a tank of water to empty.
I do small parts on the kitchen stove in an aluminum bread pan.
No big setup required.

[ASSASSIN]

I did not see it mentioned but, if you do a hot salts bluing, make sure you use bottled water and NOT tap water. Reason being is that all the trace minerals in tap water will leave red and yellow spots on the barrel that can only be removed by repolishing or bead blasting the barrel again...

Also, if you want a beautiful high luster "blue" finish on the barrel, if you put a high polish on the barrel first, the blued finish can look as beautiful as a fine Browning or Sako rifle...

If you want a matte black finish, do a light polish on the barrel to remove any and all machine marks and imperfections, then do a bead blast finish before putting a barrel in a hot salts bluing bath...

Also, make sure there is absolutely "0" oil on the barrel or parts to be blued...

Yep, I've had to learn the hard way but, after hot salts bluing for 20 years, I've learned a thing or two about what it takes to to put on a very durable, beautiful and long lasting finish....

A

[Tokarev]

This is a good point, however bottled water is same as tap water in many locations, simply because there are no standards as to the quality of bottled water. In some locations it could be even worse than municipal tap water.
Distilled or reverse osmosis water should be used in all chemical reactions, including bluing for predictable results. I use double distilled RO water.

[waksupi]

You definitely need to use distilled water. That was the cause of my caveat in my first response here. Calcium is common in tap, and bottled water. It generally will cause weird runs and spots in bluing.

[Molly]

...Also, make sure there is absolutely "0" oil on the barrel or parts to be blued...

All good advice, but you might give this a try to degrease the metal: Drop it into a boiling tank of water with a good slug of any ordinary diswashing detergent. I came to favor Dawn myself. Leave it there until ready to drop it into the blueing tank. You don't even have to rinse it off with DI, though I usually did.

[ASSASSIN]

You guys are correct about the bottled water and I cannot believe I did not catch that! Distilled water is what I always used and NOT plain ol' bottled water....

A

[deltaenterprizes]

Believe it or not Draino or a cheaper version Drain Out, has the perfect chemical mix for bluing. After the reaction of the aluminum with the lye it does a pretty good job.

[Reg]

deltaenterprizes, would you care to elaborate on that. Reaction of the aluminum ? Not familiar with this stuff. How have you used it????????
Can you show some results ? It compares to --- what ?

:Bright idea::Bright idea::Bright idea:

[Molly]

Draino is fundamentlly a blend of dry pellets of sodium hydroxide and granules of aluminum. The aluminum is in there to generate heat when Draino is adfded to water: water reacts with the NaOH and the solution is very exothermic. The aqueous reaction of NaOH and aluminum simply adds more heat. The heat makes the NaOH MUCH more effective in breaking down the hair and soap curdles that are plugging up most drains. It also contains small amounts of some surfactants that are lye resistant.

I have heard the Draino trick mentioned by others, but never tried it myself. Personally, I think it would be a pretty expensive way to build a blueing bath, but I guess if you only have one or two small parts to do, it could be tolerated.

[deltaenterprizes]

It gives a nice flat black finish on a bead blasted surface, read the ingredients on the container. I spent $3^ to make a gallon using 7 containers of Drain Out & a gallon of distilled water. Did a 1911 pistol.